MP 7,1 If the 6900 XT is almost as fast as the Vega ii DUO, what will MPX releases look like?

[rondocap]

WWDC is upon us, and I am sure we are a small fraction of the audience who wonder if Apple will quietly update the MPX options for the Mac Pro. I'm not even concerned about a Mac Pro CPU refresh, mostly just the MPX.

How will they possibly stack it and organize it though? I've been running the 6900 XT in my Mac Pro, and in metal, video rendering, a single 6900 XT is very close and sometimes beats the Vega ii DUO (That's 2 GPUs!).

Not to mention it has more modern hardware to decode H265/264 faster, etc.

For example, in Davinci Resolve Candle tests: (The 6900 XT numbers are mine, the other numbers from Barefeats)

6900 XT
1 NR 2 60 FPS
3 NR 2 48 FPS (Vega ii DUO 43 FPS, Vega ii 21 FPS)
6 NR 2 25 FPS (Vega ii DUO 21 FPS, Vega ii 11 FPS)


04 Blur Nodes 60 FPS
08 Blur Nodes 60 FPS
16 Blur Nodes 60 FPS
32 Blur Nodes 60 FPS
64 Blur Nodes 37 FPS (Vega ii DUO 50.4 FPS, Vega ii 25 FPS)


Yes, I know the DUO has much more vram and is still superior for things like ML and AI, but I'd imagine the biggest group are video editors that want an upgrade.

So a $999 MSRP 6900 XT runs neck and neck with a $5200 Duo, very interesting. Obviously the MPX module will be much more than that, but I wonder what Apple will do.

Does it make sense to keep the Vega ii and duo around still since they're fairly old at this point? I have not seen any roadmap for a newer version of these, just the AMD 6000 series GPUs.

Very curious what will happen, I mean they can just let the Vega ii run alongside the W6900x I'd imagine, but they have to remove some options or else they'll have too much. I am sure there's a W6800x possible as well. Maybe that replaces the W5700x entirely?


Would love to hear your thoughts!

 

[rondocap]

Just got an email from AMD, apparently something big is coming June 8th, and seems like w6800 and w6900 pc versions, so the mpx modules should hopefully follow soon.

AMD says 'Something BIG is coming', likely Radeon Pro with Navi 21 GPU - VideoCardz.com

AMD Radeon Pro W6800 and W6600 to launch on June 8th? There have been leaks, and now there is an official teaser. New Radeon Pro is coming, AMD has just started sending emails about its upcoming annulment. Although AMD only says that ‘something big is coming’.On June 8th, AMD will unveil its...

videocardz.com

 

[tsialex]

Just got an email from AMD, apparently something big is coming June 8th, and seems like w6800 and w6900 pc versions, so the mpx modules should hopefully follow soon.

AMD says 'Something BIG is coming', likely Radeon Pro with Navi 21 GPU - VideoCardz.com

AMD Radeon Pro W6800 and W6600 to launch on June 8th? There have been leaks, and now there is an official teaser. New Radeon Pro is coming, AMD has just started sending emails about its upcoming annulment. Although AMD only says that ‘something big is coming’.On June 8th, AMD will unveil its...

videocardz.com

This is one of the best unintended official leaks ever.

“utm_campaign=2021-06-03-consumer-radeon-pro-w6800-w6600-pre-announce”

 

[rondocap]

This is one of the best unintended official leaks ever.

Definitely, although I wonder if the MPX will only come months later like it did with the W5700x.

wwdc being June 7th is interesting, I wonder if we’ll see it there

 

[mattspace]

what will MPX releases look like?

"cancelled" *badoom-tish*

 

[rondocap]

"cancelled" *baoom-tish*

lol hope not, I think since we have drivers already it should be coming, question is when

 

[deconstruct60]

lol hope not, I think since we have drivers already it should be coming, question is when

Probably not cancelled, but also pretty decent chance not any time soon. ( announce and no ship for months )

The working drivers make the off-the-shelf 6900 in your system now. A W6900 isn't going to make that work any better. Similar for folks with eGPU on Intel Macs ..... it works now.

Where it is primarily being used as

a. a compute card . (and some other MPX module is driving a Thunderbolt display)
b. a compute + display where it is a mainstream display from the GPU card
c. a 3D and mainstream display from the GPU card


Then there isn't a large added value of a MPX module. And likely costs less ( depending how much the crypto shortage inflates the price for the buyer) as the floor for Apple's offering is likely around $2,800 (old Vega II 'Solo' price point).


MPX has a value hook where:

1. need to drive a XDR displays and/or route DisplayPort to one of the TB ports on the Mac Pro (not on the MPX module)
2. has some app which requires all the compute and display be done on single card ... and again TB display.



That first group is likely substantively large and will keep those folks happy while Apple does more with laptops and non-expansion M-series variants.

The second group is likely smaller than first. But folks with large sunk costs into a XDR (or two) , they also likely aren't leaving short term either. They'll grumble and make do with what they got ( similar to how folks grumbled and carried on with their Mac Pro 5,1 )

 

[goMac]

Probably not cancelled, but also pretty decent chance not any time soon. ( announce and no ship for months )

I think there is probably a decent, but not 100% chance, we see the card at WWDC.

It's the two year anniversary of the Mac Pro announcement, so it's a good time. And if there are Metal features tied to it (i.e. maybe Metal adds ray tracing for the 6900 and M2) it makes sense to announce it at a developer conference. They can't really talk about new Metal features if there are no cards tied to them.

 

[rondocap]

Probably not cancelled, but also pretty decent chance not any time soon. ( announce and no ship for months )

The working drivers make the off-the-shelf 6900 in your system now. A W6900 isn't going to make that work any better. Similar for folks with eGPU on Intel Macs ..... it works now.

Where it is primarily being used as

a. a compute card . (and some other MPX module is driving a Thunderbolt display)
b. a compute + display where it is a mainstream display from the GPU card
c. a 3D and mainstream display from the GPU card


Then there isn't a large added value of a MPX module. And likely costs less ( depending how much the crypto shortage inflates the price for the buyer) as the floor for Apple's offering is likely around $2,800 (old Vega II 'Solo' price point).


MPX has a value hook where:

1. need to drive a XDR displays and/or route DisplayPort to one of the TB ports on the Mac Pro (not on the MPX module)
2. has some app which requires all the compute and display be done on single card ... and again TB display.



That first group is likely substantively large and will keep those folks happy while Apple does more with laptops and non-expansion M-series variants.

The second group is likely smaller than first. But folks with large sunk costs into a XDR (or two) , they also likely aren't leaving short term either. They'll grumble and make do with what they got ( similar to how folks grumbled and carried on with their Mac Pro 5,1 )

So as someone who has the 6900 XT hooked up via USB C to an LG 5K display, the experience is good but not perfect, I do prefer the MPX Module for the extra TB3 ports and it seems to work better overall, the 6900 XT sometimes does have some sleep issues where I have to plug the cable back in and out.

But other than that, works very well and the cooler for the reference model is actually fairly quiet and efficient on the 6900xt, a worlds difference from previous AMD blower style cards that were hot and noisy.

imo it looks like the W6800/W6900 is replacing the old Vega ii stuff, like the pro Vega ii, so I wouldn't be surprised to see that leave the Mac Pro side too. The 6900 just has so much performance that there is no way to justify it for most use cases like metal/video rendering, it's closer to the $5600 Vega ii duo than the $2800 Vega ii, for much cheaper.

Now, if the Vega ii is better for some use cases like compute, that's true, but for metal and video work, the new 6000 GPUs are a huge leap judging by tests so far.

 

[deconstruct60]

I think there is probably a decent, but not 100% chance, we see the card at WWDC.

Announced ( like the W5700 that got listed long before could get it) or shipped? Another ... just wait sometime this Fall ... blah blah. Yeah perhaps. If trying to mimic 2 years ago that was all show and no ship also.

It's the two year anniversary of the Mac Pro announcement, so it's a good time. And if there are Metal features tied to it (i.e. maybe Metal adds ray tracing for the 6900 and M2) it makes sense to announce it at a developer conference. They can't really talk about new Metal features if there are no cards tied to them.

The M2 I'd suspect more likely than the 6900 to drive that conversation. And if Apple hasn't lifted the embargo on 3rd party GPUs from the M-series then wouldn't be surprising for that to be a one side Metal update also.

The bigger deal would be if bring 6900 to M-series rather than ray tracing.

Maybe Apple does something with the AMD Fidelity FX Super Resolution ( Open source ) . That is a more a computational overlay on non specific hardware. Metal RT on 6900 would be somewhat similar in that there isn't purely dedicated hardware. Cache + oriented compute function units is mainly how it is done. Metal's RT like support has been pretty agnostic so far. Don't think they really need something extremely proprietary hardware to do a demo.

 

[goMac]

Maybe Apple does something with the AMD Fidelity FX Super Resolution ( Open source ) . That is a more a computational overlay on non specific hardware. Metal RT on 6900 would be somewhat similar in that there isn't purely dedicated hardware. Cache + oriented compute function units is mainly how it is done. Metal's RT like support has been pretty agnostic so far. Don't think they really need something extremely proprietary hardware to do a demo.

They don't, but with rumors that the new Apple Silicon CPUs may not even ship until late in the year, they might need something to demo on and distribute sample code for at WWDC that isn't Apple Silicon. Even if an M1 could execute new Metal features, M1 isn't exactly a graphical powerhouse for showcasing new things, or for developers testing new things.

 

[mattspace]

Maybe Apple does something with the AMD Fidelity FX Super Resolution ( Open source ) .

at around 5:20 in this Linus Tech Tips video:

Doesn't sound (or look) like FidelityFX is really anything to write home about.

 

[timerickson]

This is one of the best unintended official leaks ever.

Okay! The chip is ready, so it's on Apple to wrap it in an MPX enclosure and slap X at the end of the name


W6600X, W6800X, W6900X are all possible.

 

[deconstruct60]

at around 5:20 in this Linus Tech Tips video:

Doesn't sound (or look) like FidelityFX is really anything to write home about.

That is a bit of a Nvidia fan boy response than substantive.

He poo-poos it as being a "just a post processing effect".. errrr. And DLSS is what? DLSS is a different implementation for a post processing effect, but it is still post render. It is an upscaler that has to be tuned and controller for each specific game. ( less so with DLSS v2 but offset to an even bigger neural net to run. )

So the proclamation of effectively "it isn't exactly like DLSS v2.0" then it sucks is a bit narrow. Gamers crank down resolution ( 2K instead of 4K screen) and effects to hit higher fr ame rate to get and edge on making quick kills . "The uniform on that character on the screen is kind of 'soff" so it can't get a head hot in".. .. not really a prime mover if primarily objective is out to win.

AMD's objective is to create something that isn't just 100% locked into just their hardware. Although they are helping their hardware.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amds-fidelityfx-superresolution-coming-to-xbox-series-xors

they aren't doing it in such a way to kneecap other GPUs. ( not requiring folks to put pure tensor cores into their GPU implementation.) [ Tensor cores elsewhere in the SoC aren't necessarily going to work well. For example, if the framebuffer being post process 'upscaled' isn't held in the common L3/L4 cache and have to completely go out to the framebuffer main RAM store to swap the work in. ]


Console (fixed ) box hooked up to 4K HDR screen. Not like Apple doesn't have that issue with A12 powered AppleTV. Similar issue if Apple tries to scale their iGPU offerings on LPDDR4 ( or even LPDDR5 at relatively high GPU core counts. )

If the baseline for the metric is "buy a top of the line Nvidia add-in GPU and then compare" there are lots of systems where that isn't an option. The Nvidia fan boy answer tends to trend to just back a system can put a Nvidia GPU into. That is kind of where his commentary is.


Apple may not bite. Throwing the other open graphics standards under the bus is game plan right now. Yet even more porting required is the approach. ( the game/porting engine/frameworks will hide the extra work for us).

 

[deconstruct60]

Okay! The chip is ready, so it's on Apple to wrap it in an MPX enclosure and slap X at the end of the name
W6600X, W6800X, W6900X are all possible.

The chips themselves have been ready. The 6800 started nominally shipping back in 2020 ( hard to get but technically started ).

It is mainly drivers that are the issue. The W6800 gets Windows Pro drivers. The macOS needed its own ( which often are more synched up with the Windows Pro drivers ).

If Apple's long term intent is to only bring these to the macOS intel version then sooner rather than later has some substance. If they are trying to weave these into macOS 12 M-series version then sliding into the Fall ( and arrival of macOS 12 ) wouldn't be surprising at all. It is software that isn't finished that would be the blocker.

 

[deconstruct60]

They don't, but with rumors that the new Apple Silicon CPUs may not even ship until late in the year, they might need something to demo on and distribute sample code for at WWDC that isn't Apple Silicon. Even if an M1 could execute new Metal features, M1 isn't exactly a graphical powerhouse for showcasing new things, or for developers testing new things.

So a Mac Pro on stage with a Vega Pro II Duo hooked to the XDR screen and an off the shelf RX 6900 in slot 3 (or 4). The card is in a box under the table. If it wasn't for the XDR screen could just hook it to the monitor. ( actually probalby could hook the off the shelf to the XDR with a reslution adjustment if don't need the USB ports on the XDR. [ If the Pro Duo eeks out slightly better results then have a fig leaf to hide behind to justify the $5K price. ]

The new Apple Silicon CPUs probably have gone past limited 'at risk' production. Again, it is going to be a box under the table for the demo. ( like the DTK was a box under the table last year. And really the Mac Pro also in its preview. The dog and pony show is going to have a larger focus on the screen than the system for the demo. ).

 

[jasonmvp]

MPX has a value hook where:

1. need to drive a XDR displays and/or route DisplayPort to one of the TB ports on the Mac Pro (not on the MPX module)
2. has some app which requires all the compute and display be done on single card ... and again TB display.

I'd throw in:
3. appreciation/desire/requirement for passively-cooled, 100% silent GPU.

 

[deconstruct60]

I'd throw in:
3. appreciation/desire/requirement for passively-cooled, 100% silent GPU.

That's is just "blame assignment" shifting. The fans on the Mac Pro chassis are part of the cooling system. They are quiet but not 100%.

There is no incremental additional add, but the baseline is there.
[ that supposedly passive 'independent' cooling system on the card won't work in any other system. So pragmatically not independent. ]

 

[jasonmvp]

That's is just "blame assignment" shifting. The fans on the Mac Pro chassis are part of the cooling system. They are quiet but not 100%.

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree a bit. This isn't a "blame assignment" shifting thing. It's a noteworthy difference in that the chassis' fans are basically noise-less unless the machine is under an intense amount of load (I speak from direct experience: mine's about 3ft from my head). Any aftermarket AMD video card with fans on it is going to make more noise than the chassis fans do. No ifs, ands, or buts.

For that reason, the passively cooled MPX modules hold a lot of value to me and why I'd add that to your numbered list.

 

[rondocap]

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree a bit. This isn't a "blame assignment" shifting thing. It's a noteworthy difference in that the chassis' fans are basically noise-less unless the machine is under an intense amount of load (I speak from direct experience: mine's about 3ft from my head). Any aftermarket AMD video card with fans on it is going to make more noise than the chassis fans do. No ifs, ands, or buts.

For that reason, the passively cooled MPX modules hold a lot of value to me and why I'd add that to your numbered list.

Definitely impressive how silent it generally is, but I have a 6900 xt and 6800 xt reference testing in the Mac Pro, and they have some pretty good coolers too - generally don't hear them much.

And they can actually perform better "at the limit" - for example, in a very hot environment, testing them to the max, the MPX modules will start to thermal throttle performance and overheat, while the reference coolers do keep their performance but just increase noise with fans.

Most people won't reach those thermal limits in everyday workstation use though, do the MPX of course are generally superior.

 

[jerrygladh]

Need some advice...
Have the 7,1 580 and two Radeon VII just for Davinci Resolve use. Big Sur 11.4.
Works nice but need some more power for upcoming projects.
If i replace the vII:s with two RX6900XT, is there some special brands recommended
or something else to consider?

Jerry

 

[rondocap]

Need some advice...
Have the 7,1 580 and two Radeon VII just for Davinci Resolve use. Big Sur 11.4.
Works nice but need some more power for upcoming projects.
If i replace the vII:s with two RX6900XT, is there some special brands recommended
or something else to consider?

Jerry

I’m using the reference AMd models, they work great. You have to be careful with the size of most 6900xt because they won’t fit in the Mac Pro, but the reference one does

 

[jerrygladh]

I’m using the reference AMd models, they work great. You have to be careful with the size of most 6900xt because they won’t fit in the Mac Pro, but the reference one does

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, which brands is reference model?

Jerry

 

[deconstruct60]

Sorry for my lack of knowledge, which brands is reference model?

Jerry

It is a card that is just primarily based on AMD's reference design. AMD ( and Nvidia ) hand out reference design to the folks who make GPU boards. A working GPU chip on a working board. ( a boring board with little, or no, disco lights, fancy features, etc. )

the vendors can just ship that with relatively minor tweaks ( change logo, color of plastic cowling, etc.) . Several do. But they also tend to offer multiple versions with the same basic GPU chip embedded. Their semi-custom boards are typically the "more power, you should pay more" versions. If they only offer just one for a specific GPU chip then pretty good chance it is semi-custom if not very affordable.

Typically, if you look at the GPU product introduction that AMD/Nvidia does then that is a reference board.

 

[rondocap]

Just saw this about AMD CDNA2 with 2 Gpus in one, much like the duo. I wonder if this will make it to the Mac Pro too

AMD confirms Aldebaran CDNA2 GPU for Instinct MI200 has 'primary' and 'secondary' die - VideoCardz.com

AMD Aldebaran CDNA2 GPU features two dies In the most recent Linux kernel update, AMD engineers have confirmed that the upcoming CDNA2 GPU codenamed Aldebaran will feature two dies. While consumer graphics processing units are not expected to feature MCM (Multi-Chip-Module) design till at least...

videocardz.com