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Trebuin

macrumors 65816
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Jun 3, 2008
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Edit:
The W series Xeons are not listed, but are Skylake designed & may be impacted. Reference the links from the discussion below.


https://www.tweaktown.com/news/60411/heres-list-intel-cpus-affected-spectre-meltdown/index.html


Edit2:
Thanks @FredT2 for listing some more useful sources that link right to Intel. Pretty much everything is impacted:

CPUs: https://www.techarp.com/articles/intel-amd-arm-cpu-bug/ (includes detection reference Intel-SA-00086)
Intel reference: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000025619/software.html
 
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its not listed but its not impossible that they could be added to the original list from intel at a later date (the original document has had 2 revisions already) and contains the following as part of it's disclaimer:

INFORMATION IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED “AS IS” IN CONNECTION WITH INTEL® PRODUCTS. YOUR USE OF THE INFORMATION IN THE DOCUMENT OR MATERIALS LINKED FROM THE DOCUMENT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK. INTEL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE OR UPDATE THIS DOCUMENT AT ANY TIME.

— Yes this is obvious a legal protection, but one that wouldn't be needed without the possibility that "more" could be added than what is there now.
 
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Based on my limited understanding of the issues, Intel will need to perform a substantial architectural redesign to render their current processor lineup immune. I would expect their processors to be susceptible for at least the next several iterations and they'll rely on the current OS patching to provide protection.
 
Based on my limited understanding of the issues, Intel will need to perform a substantial architectural redesign to render their current processor lineup immune. I would expect their processors to be susceptible for at least the next several iterations and they'll rely on the current OS patching to provide protection.

I do not know if and how Intel could mitigate this in hardware, but if they can, Ice Lake will be a microarchitecture change so perhaps then.
 
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Seems to be task-dependent, but in general looks to be in the very low single-digits (if that) for most things under macOS based on early benchmarking.
 
I’d imagine all chips coming out for at least the next two years will be affected as well, intel has been working on canonlake for about 6years now I doubt they can fix hardware level issues before they release at the end of the year and even the generation after are bound to still be affected. Arm chips should do better being on a faster upgrade cycle.
 
Xeon are the same as the mainstream Intel chips except they support larger caches, support for SMP, and ECC memory. In terms of architecture no difference. They are all affected.
 
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I’d imagine all chips coming out for at least the next two years will be affected as well, intel has been working on canonlake for about 6years now I doubt they can fix hardware level issues before they release at the end of the year

I am sure they will charge more for the fixed chips which would be marketed as most secure chips ever manufactured.
 
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I do not know if and how Intel could mitigate this in hardware, but if they can, Ice Lake will be a microarchitecture change so perhaps then.

Ice Lake has already "taped out" (IOW the design is complete and ready for testing and fabrication). No changes are possible. Tiger Lake is an optimization of Ice Lake with the same microarchitecture and is due in 2019. Maybe they could slightly tweak that (add a register or address mode) but not significant architectural changes. The problem is that fully mitigating Spectre might require significant architectural changes, not just tweaks. If so that is probably five years out or more.

Meltdown and Spectre are not Intel-only. Meltdown also affects some ARM CPUs and may affect IBM PowerPC. Spectre affects most CPUs designed since the mid-1990s.

Spectre (which is far more serious and difficult to mitigate than Meltdown) apparently exists for any CPU from any vendor which does speculative execution and branch prediction. That includes AMD Ryzen, ARM, IBM Power8, Power9, the System Z CPUs used in IBM mainframes, and possibly Oracle (formerly Sun) SPARC CPUs. It apparently affects a PowerMac G5 with a PowerPC 970FX CPU. It might include older CPUs such as the MIPS R10000, DEC Alpha 21264 and even the Motorola 68060, since I think they all use branch predictors and speculative execution.

Upgrading to a newer Intel or other brand CPU likely won't fix this, although specific hardware mitigations might lessen the impact or narrow the exposure. Research is ongoing, but the long term issue to be resolved is whether adding another layer of architectural patches on top of current CPUs will provide sufficient immunity to Spectre, or if all CPUs must be fundamentally redesigned and all software rewritten. E.g, migrating all computing to a hypothetical Itanium Mark II. The initial assessment from US-CERT, a US government cybersecurity group, said Spectre could not be reliably fixed in software or microcode and total replacement of all CPUs was the only true solution. They have since walked back that statement, but it shows how this is not a wild, unfounded possibility.

Meltdown is quick and easy to fix, albeit at a significant performance cost for some IO-intensive workloads. Intel "Haswell" CPUs and later already have PCID which limits the performance hit.

Spectre is far more serious. It allows a user process running within a VM to break out of this and access data in the hypervisor, which it can then trick into passing it data from other VMs. IOW on a big virtualized server running separate instances of SQL Server or Oracle each in their own VM, Spectre can cross VM boundaries and access in-memory user data from other VMs. On a Mac if you are running Parallels Desktop or VMWare Fusion, Spectre theoretically allows a Windows app to break out of that VM and access data in the host OS or from other Mac apps.

Meltdown is a single well-defined behavioral characteristic of Intel and certain ARM CPUs and maybe PowerPC. There currently seems little doubt when it's fixed in software via kernel page table isolation, that fix is reliable and total.

By contrast Spectre is more of a general method, of which two examples are currently known. It is much more difficult to mitigate and even when done, there is less confidence it's totally fixed. It's possible other Spectre variants will be discovered.

The performance cost of total mitigation can also be compared. Meltdown can be immediately and totally fixed by using OS kernel page table isolation (not patching apps) which incurs a variable performance cost from essentially zero to maybe 30% in extreme cases.

By contrast the only way to immediately achieve similar confidence in a Spectre fix would be to disable branch prediction and instruction speculation. That would probably have a 5x or more performance hit -- the CPU would essentially be unusable. Thus Spectre fixes to date have been more like patching holes in a leaking dike. Over the past few days there is increasing confidence maybe Spectre can be adequately mitigated by various software and microcode patches but it's not totally certain. It might not be totally fixable without a totally new CPU architecture, which would imply all software would have to be recompiled or re-written to run on that new architecture. However the Apple Mac has changed CPUs twice and it's obviously still here and going strong, so it's theoretically possible on a broader scale.
 
Spectre is far more serious. It allows a user process running within a VM to break out of this and access data in the hypervisor, which it can then trick into passing it data from other VMs. IOW on a big virtualized server running separate instances of SQL Server or Oracle each in their own VM, Spectre can cross VM boundaries and access in-memory user data from other VMs. On a Mac if you are running Parallels Desktop or VMWare Fusion, Spectre theoretically allows a Windows app to break out of that VM and access data in the host OS or from other Mac apps.
Some questions:

1. What is the risk to the average Mac user?

2. Where would an attack come from?

3. You said there are so far two Spectre variants. Are these actual exploits that someone discovered, or theoretical methods?

4. Where did the names come from?

5. Other than wait for OS fixes from Apple, what should or can we do?
 
Some questions:

1. What is the risk to the average Mac user?

In general the current risk seem low, but that's because some of the patches are already deployed in High Sierra, I don't know about Sierra. Also we presume nobody knew about this until last week except some security researchers and tech specialists who have been working on solutions for six months. Now that it's widely known "bad actors" will try to exploit it.

2. Where would an attack come from?

It would probably be a mostly local attack, IOW someone would have to run code on your computer, or you'd have to download and run some non-trusted code. It's not like a network virus or worm that automatically spreads from machine to machine. However it's also possible that Javascript could contain an attack which means merely clicking on a web site could launch it within your browser. I think all main browsers have been already patched against this.

3. You said there are so far two Spectre variants. Are these actual exploits that someone discovered, or theoretical methods?

None have been discovered so far in the wild, but functional, proof-of-concept samples have been written and run by researchers (for both Meltdown and Spectre). So it's not just theoretical. You can see an example of Meltdown accessing restricted kernel memory here:

4. Where did the names come from?

https://meltdownattack.com/

...5. Other than wait for OS fixes from Apple, what should or can we do?...

It's not just OS fixes, but also browser fixes. You can download and keep current on any browser fixes, whether Chrome, FireFox or Safari.
 
Luckily most users will not be using all cores and in that case one core could be assigned to perform all necessary safety related tasks:)
 
Some questions:

1. What is the risk to the average Mac user?

2. Where would an attack come from?

3. You said there are so far two Spectre variants. Are these actual exploits that someone discovered, or theoretical methods?

4. Where did the names come from?

5. Other than wait for OS fixes from Apple, what should or can we do?

Most of the people who will ever be affected by a bug like this are visiting very dubious websites, download warez from pirate sites and shitcoin factories. Normally users who visit quite normal websites and don’t install pirate software or crap from Github have very little to no risk.
 
Most of the people who will ever be affected by a bug like this are visiting very dubious websites, download warez from pirate sites and shitcoin factories. Normally users who visit quite normal websites and don’t install pirate software or crap from Github have very little to no risk.

Much of the risk is your personal data in the cloud, not your own desktop machine. While a commercial data center generally has excellent security and operational procedures, they are also a much higher value target than a random end user. A well-endowed bad actor could theoretically bribe a data center employee to run an app which used Spectre to circumvent normal memory protections and access highly restricted data -- maybe your data. With the trend toward running multiple virtual servers on a single multi-socket machine, Spectre potentially allows access to all those virtual servers from a single malicious user-mode app.

Data centers know this risk and they are mostly already patched against these vulnerabilities, but all it takes is a single chink in the armor, then armed with Spectre, the perpetrator has access to lots of formerly-protected data.
 
so is iMac Pro gets slow down after installing those patches?
Apple originally said this was addressed, but then they released todays patch...& someone here said that their performance increased. It's possible that Apple's patch isn't as bad & Linux or Windows...or Apple has simply improved performance of High Sierra.
 
Apple originally said this was addressed, but then they released todays patch...& someone here said that their performance increased. It's possible that Apple's patch isn't as bad & Linux or Windows...or Apple has simply improved performance of High Sierra.
while all over the world expected a slow down, apple's surprisingly giving something in reverse?
 
By chance I had run a Handbrake encode just before installing the supplemental update. I reran it just after, and it was actually 1% faster.

Handbrake is generally the opposite kind of app where you'd expect a slowdown. Handbrake is mostly compute-bound, not I/O bound. It probably spends most of its execution path within ring 3, or user mode. The Meltdown penalty is incurred when transitioning to ring 0 or kernel mode. That only happens when doing a system call, such as for I/O.

While Handbrake is obviously doing disk I/O, this fraction of the overall workload is probably low relative to the time spent in computation. This can be seen from any CPU core monitoring utility. If the CPU cores are all nearly pegged, then I/O rates cannot be that high. Also the I/O rates for Handbrake will be relatively low.

You'd expect to see more slowdown where the workload was dominated by lots of small I/Os, not compute. Each I/O requires a system call which in turn requires a context switch to kernel mode, which (with the Meltdown patch) requires reloading the TLB cache. The potential performance cost can be seen in the attached graph which is taken from a 2010 paper by Soares and Stumm.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wrb59M6/0/b592bf2b/S/i-wrb59M6-S.jpg
 
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