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Canubis

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 22, 2008
439
556
Vienna, Austria
Interesting article by macworld: https://www.macworld.com/article/1518344/mac-pro-apple-silicon-transition-intel-xeon-processors.html
Personally I do not see this happening. – If for no other reason, it would simply be Apple losing its face.

On the other hand they showed to be quite pragmatic about reversing some of their decisions in the past and even admitting they were wrong. The Mac Pro family with the 2013 model and follow up 2019 model are excellent examples.

IMHO they could have updated the Intel Mac Pro with a newer Xeon chip some year(s) ago, there were even rumors about an XCode beta featuring newer Xeon ids in its code. But I assume from a marketing pov it would simply not have been wise – benchmark comparison of the M chips vs. the Intel Mac Pro would not look so nice anymore…

Personally I would still love to see another Intel Mac Pro revision – sooner or later I am sure it will join the Apple Silicon family – but for the time being I would most likely buy another Intel model to be able to run Windows and macOS on the same machine natively, upgrade PCI cards, RAM and disk space.
 

randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
I wonder what the truth is regarding the "one more Intel Mac we're excited about". Was there going to be a refreshed Intel Mac Pro at some point? Now would be another decent opportunity given the new Xeon chips, but it feels like the time has been and gone.

In an ideal world though, it would be great to see an update. Tweaked motherboard, new Xeons, larger base SSD size, and a couple of new AMD MPX modules. Just quietly refresh that at the same time as releasing the Apple Silicon version.

It would help keep any negativity about expandability of the AS version at bay e.g. "users who still need 1.5TB of RAM can still purchase the Intel version". That'd buy Apple some time to work out how to really get huge performance out of Apple Silicon for the next version.
 

chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,709
7,279
I wonder what the truth is regarding the "one more Intel Mac we're excited about".
That's not the quote. John Ternus said that there was just "one more product to go," the Mac Pro, last year, I think at about the time the Mac Studio was released, and back in 2020 Apple said they had Intel models in the pipeline. The 2020 Intel iMac was released after that statement.
Apple releasing an Intel Mac now would be taken as an indication that switching to Apple Silicon was a failure because the architecture can't scale. It'll never happen.
 

Lifeisabeach

macrumors 6502
Dec 4, 2022
363
375
That's not the quote. John Ternus said that there was just "one more product to go," the Mac Pro, last year, I think at about the time the Mac Studio was released, and back in 2020 Apple said they had Intel models in the pipeline. The 2020 Intel iMac was released after that statement.
Apple releasing an Intel Mac now would be taken as an indication that switching to Apple Silicon was a failure because the architecture can't scale. It'll never happen.

Agreed. Apple absolutely would not have made this leap into Apple Silicon unless they had extremely good reason to believe it would scale up. Or perhaps better said... knew damned well it would scale up. They literally bet their future and reputation on this.
 

hovscorpion12

macrumors 68040
Sep 12, 2011
3,044
3,123
USA
I'm not saying it won't happen, but for what consumers want, might not be at the level Apple can achieve at this point of time.

Zero Apple Silicon products support eGPU, memory/ssd upgrades.

I can't see Apple all of a sudden achieving it.

If you can settle for half speeds. Ie. No upgradable slots, but a king all in one. CPU/GPU/RAM and SSD. Ok.
 

flat4

Contributor
Jul 14, 2009
290
84
The reason I like MP and cMP is that i can add cards, isn't that the limiting factor for arm,does not let you do that or is just apple arm that does not allow in cards?

school me!
 

chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,709
7,279
The reason I like MP and cMP is that i can add cards, isn't that the limiting factor for arm,does not let you do that or is just apple arm that does not allow in cards?

school me!
Current Apple Silicon products don't have slots, but a Mac Pro without card slots already exists as the Mac Studio.
 

Canubis

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Oct 22, 2008
439
556
Vienna, Austria
A possible scenario I could see is Apple releasing an AS Mac Pro this year, largely as rumored in the last weeks - meaning without much expandability for RAM and GPUs, but possibly disk Space can be upgraded. Possibly even some pci cards But no GPUS. This would target people who need more power than the Mac studio can deliver as well as some special configurations pros need. It won’t serve all and everybody of the current Mac Pro niche but possibly a good part.
At the same time they could just keep selling the intel model for the time being, for people who really need that. Possibly even give it a final silent cpu Upgrade. Not even mention it during the event, which would focus solely on the new model. This way they keep the face, the future is clear with AS on the horizon.

I just think the engineering work to update the Mac Pro with a new intel chip is practively zero and probably even done, they for sure had these prototypes as backups in the labs. It’s mainly about keeping the face and not misleading anyone into believing AS isn’t the future.
 

Zaydax333

macrumors regular
May 25, 2021
125
314
I personally think Apple backed themselves into a corner with saying that the "Mac Pro" was the last product for the AS transition. The Mac Pro has NEVER been a machine that I saw AS being a good fit for. Every advantage of AS is a disadvantage for the Mac Pro. Especially after the spent so much time and energy designing the current Mac Pro.

Unified Memory ARCH means no user replaceable memory.
Integrated GPU means really limited GPU power.
Lower power draw/better thermals doesn't really matter in a machine that's designed to sit on a desk and do really demanding tasks. (better sustainability of course with less power draw)

Apple has 4 options moving forward the way I see it.

1) Switch to AS the way it is now and piss a bunch of people off. It's just going to be a bigger Mac Studio where the only modularity is the monitor and KBM.

2) New version of AS that allows for user replaceable RAM and PCIE slots to add GPU and etc. Theoretically the security enclave, SSD controller, neural engine, and video encode/decode engines could all still be coupled with the CPU cores. It would essentially just be 2 M2 Ultras together otherwise for a total of 342 P cores and 16 E cores.

3) Keep the existing setup but with newer Intel x86 chips and AMD GPUs.

4) Keep existing setup but use AMD Threadripper x86 Chips and AMD GPUs.

Personally I think options 2 and 4 are the best. They really do want to divorce themselves from Intel completely and it makes sense, and AS has been a big success on that front. But without the memory and PCIE slot modularity the Mac Pro won't be anything but a glorified super charged Mac Studio and it won't be catering to the crowd that actually wants it. I think it will end up being option 2, just much later. Maybe waiting until the M3 is out.

Regardless of all that, it would be interesting to see the trash can Mac Pro come back and be running like 2 M2 Ultras. That form factor with 32 P and 16 E cores, 384 GB of RAM, and 152 GPU cores would be fun to see.
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
2,431
2,186
I'm not saying it won't happen, but for what consumers want, might not be at the level Apple can achieve at this point of time.

Zero Apple Silicon products support eGPU, memory/ssd upgrades.

I can't see Apple all of a sudden achieving it.

If you can settle for half speeds. Ie. No upgradable slots, but a king all in one. CPU/GPU/RAM and SSD. Ok.
Just wondering what are the proportion of consumers who want the upgradeable slots you mention vs the amount who are lapping up the current M chips?

Also I have a loaded PC for that stuff, and refuse to waste money on a Mac M Pro as nearly all the pro apps I use still are not native. Whats the point?
 
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hovscorpion12

macrumors 68040
Sep 12, 2011
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Just wondering what are the proportion of consumers who want the upgradeable slots you mention vs the amount who are lapping up the current M chips?

Also I have a loaded PC for that stuff, and refuse to waste money on a Mac M Pro as nearly all the pro apps I use still are not native. Whats the point?

Mac Pro owners are very important and specific when it comes to specs/performance. Mac Pro owners are the Ultra Elites who demand zero compromises. They're the Apple equivalent of Windows workstation owners.

I'd say 100% of all Mac Pro owners are expecting upgradable slots.

The owners who are laping up M chips are either

A. Tired of their slow Mac and are upgrading
B. Seeing that a Mac that significantly cheaper then theirs can get the job done faster.
 

Unregistered 4U

macrumors G4
Jul 22, 2002
10,610
8,628
The owners who are laping up M chips are either

A. Tired of their slow Mac and are upgrading
B. Seeing that a Mac that significantly cheaper then theirs can get the job done faster.
Half of the folks buying Macs in recent years have never had a Mac before. Which makes me wonder, how many folks currently using Macs feel that a significantly larger number of people buying Macs are ones that have owned Macs previously?

For a future Mac Pro purchaser… it isn’t required for that user to currently own a Mac Pro, is it?
 

Reggaenald

Suspended
Sep 26, 2021
864
798
The notion that Apple admits to being wrong is wrong imo.
They never admitted that their 2016-2019 MacBooks were set backs or anything else.
They just simply improved their then latest offerings, but never once had I, a 2017 MBP user, the feeling that Apple admitted to anything but committed to the shortcomings of their devices.
They didn’t do anything for you in the end, but for their bottom line. Lawsuits and bad press ain’t it. That’s all.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
IMHO they could have updated the Intel Mac Pro with a newer Xeon chip some year(s) ago, there were even rumors about an XCode beta featuring newer Xeon ids in its code. But I assume from a marketing pov it would simply not have been wise – benchmark comparison of the M chips vs. the Intel Mac Pro would not look so nice anymore…

There were some "Ice Lake Server" identifiers that showed up in XCode. That wasn't as big of a leap as some folks make it out to be. Apple did ship some "Ice Lake" ( Gen10 )


"... 2020 4 Port Thunderbolt model .... 2.0 GHz 4-core Intel Core i5 (1038NG7) Ice Lake (10th gen), up to 3.8 GHz, with 6 MB L3 cache ".

So Apple doing a bit of hacking around with either an Intel Reference board in hacintosh fashion or some board prototype for iMac Pro (that got abandonded early on when real TDP of W-6300 came out) or Mac Pro would

On Intel's road maps back in late 2017 - early 2018 , The "Ice Lake Server" chips would be shipping late 2019 or mid 2020. They didn't. Apple could have done some prep work in 2018-2019 on the slim chance that Intel wouldn't goof and slip up on deliverying in a timely fashion. It would be a decent "Plan C" (back up to a back up plan) if somewhat their own work didn't pan out.

The huge problem though was that W-3300 was pretty bad. Here is a comapre between W-3200 (what Mac Pro 2019 uses) , W=6300 (Ice Lake) , and the newest stuff ( 2400 , 3400 )


Going to jump around the chart a bit. First, look at the launch dates in the supplementary info section.

W-3200 Q2 '19 (apple shipped in Q4 )
W-3300 Q3 '21 ( i.e. after WWDC 2021 and a year after "about two years later" )
W-2400/3400 Q1 2023 ( in the calendar year after "about two years later" )

If Intel has shipped what is now the W-2400 in Q1-Q2 2021 then maybe.

The W6000 series shipped in Q3 2021. Coincidence? Likely, but probably also were not 100% decoupled either. Pretty good chance that Apple shipped the MPX updates to the 'last gap Intel Mac Pro" even though Intel screwed up.


Second, if look at the TDP ( this is split in the chart. one line TDP and two others "base processor power" and "max processor power". Latter is Intel's new way of talking about it. )

W-3200 205W
W-3300 250W
W-2400 225-270W
W-3400 270-324W

( although some folks have run some max turbo tests and got a 3400 model to not surprsinginly read out much higher than 324W:

" ... At stock the CPU scored 70079 points in Cinebench R23 while all cores reached 2.9 GHz. The CPU package power reached as high as 516W. ..."
https://videocardz.com/newz/stock-i...rapids-cpu-scores-70k-points-in-cinebench-r23

)

The 45-80W jump of 3300 wouldn't be so bad if the W6000 series wasn't also consuming more power.


Third, the bigger problem though was that "Ice Lake Server" worked better as a multiuser server processor than as a single user (sometimes single threaded ) workstation processor. If go to the

Advanced technology section :

"...
Intel® Turbo Boost Max Technology 3.0 ‡YesNoYesYes
..."

Ice Lake in general has a base clock speed regression. It was on the first stab at the 10nm process before they fixed power and some other issues with the "SuperFin" enhancements. Although the IPC was up the clocks ere down so unless hit special corner case improvements the performance was more about 'brute force' (more cores , bigger AVX-512 implementation , etc. ) then better 'finesse'. That 'no' for the W-3300 makes it relatively unattracitve as a single user workstation for a fair number of workloads. Dell/HP/Lenovo didn't take W-3300 either. It isn't just an 'Apple' thing. Several large systems vendors looked at it and said 'No , thanks'.

[ It didn't help that it posed little threat to the 2000 Threadripper series and that AMD/Intel got into a battle of shipping the most server packages that used the exact same die(s). Even if the updated Mac Pro proved very popular, Apple may not been able to secure enough dies to fill demand. And probably not going to get discounts (if the packages are relatively scarce) . ]


In an alternative universe where Intel delivered something like the W-2400 before Q4 20200 - Q1 2021 timefame and no pandemic drama , I suspect Apple would have taken another iteration and paired a better underlying system to the W6000 updates they rolled out. The "ice Lake" would have been what the W-2400 largely is.

Likely Apple's primary "Plan B" was to just keep selling the MP2019 with new GPUs as a 'refresh' and skip the follow on generation of "multiple chip package M-series". ( decent chance that is M3 not 'M2' ( as M2 is probably more limited in scope to just the lower 'half' of the line up.)


At this point, there is little signs that there is a W7000 series to pair any new Intel CPU model with so not timely on that side either. There was a window at mid 2021 to do something before the transition was done and after that the options are all 'too late'. macOS on Intel and most of the Intel Macs are firmly on active "vintage/obsolete' strict 5 year countdown counts. When Apple put the 2020 iMac on the countdown clock that became more than most of the Intel Macs on active countdown clocks.


Personally I would still love to see another Intel Mac Pro revision – sooner or later I am sure it will join the Apple Silicon family – but for the time being I would most likely buy another Intel model to be able to run Windows and macOS on the same machine natively, upgrade PCI cards, RAM and disk space.

If you have a Mac Pro 2019 it already does that. If you don't, Apple is simply going to point at the MP 2019 and say it does that.
 

Mr. Dee

macrumors 603
Dec 4, 2003
5,990
12,840
Jamaica
Apple Silicon scales up, the problem is the target audience needs it to be customizable, meaning, expandability. No one wants to have buy a new Mac Pro every two years just to get more RAM and GPU power. But knowing Apple's thinking, just like they did with the trash can, they probably thought wrong again and felt like a locked down Mac Pro, Mac loyalty and the halo effect of their other products could make them get away with it.

What I think is happening internally, they are seeing that this might not be the way to go and might have to scrap those initial plans and start over. So, Apple Silicon might have to be re-architected to support expandability. Apple likely even knows you need to support user upgradable memory, nVidia and AMD need to be support cards and it needs to be user serviceable.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
If I put that "one more Intel Mac we're excited about" phrase into Google, it returns this thread and only this thread. Where, if anywhere, did that quote come from?

right after summarizing the Mac Studio and Studio display at around 55:36 in this stream




"...And they join the rest of the incredible Mac line up with Apple Silicon. Making our transition nearly complete. with just one more product to go, Mac Pro, but that is for another day. ..."

The 'Mac Pro' isn't even the main subject of the sentence and folks spin it like the whole Apple event was about major Mac Pro details or even just multiple descriptive adjectives about the Mac Pro. They bring up a picture of the whole Mac line up that has been transitioned. It is relatively obvious the Mac Pro isn't in that picture so they overtly mention the obvious. That was about it.

No details or even adjectives assigned to the Mac Pro at all. All Apple really said was that they were not going to talk about the Mac Pro for a significant amount of time.
 

Siliconguy

macrumors 6502
Jan 1, 2022
425
621
The notion that Apple admits to being wrong is wrong imo.
They never admitted that their 2016-2019 MacBooks were set backs or anything else.
But they have changed their minds before. They dropped 68k to go to PPC, then dropped PPC to go to Intel.

As has been pointed out above, Apple Silicon is not a good match for Mac Pro use cases. No memory upgradability, no storage upgrades, no GPU upgrades, and so far no PCI-e slots. And the better power efficiency of Apple Silicon simply doesn't matter.

They could build a custom CPU just for the Mac Pro to solve some of the problems, but how many Mac Pros do they sell? I doubt they sell enough to pay back the engineering costs of the CPU. They could use the GPU's transistor budget for more RAM and the interface to the PCI-e slots, then rely on the graphics card for all video. They could even go back to CPUs on daughter cards like in the PPC days, or the Pentium 2 and 3. You could end up with an internal Beowolf cluster. But again, is the market big enough to support it? Only Apple knows how many Mac Pro machines they actually sell.
 

AF_APPLETALK

macrumors 6502a
Nov 12, 2020
674
923
Maybe they should consider discontinuing the Mac Pro and bringing back the Xserve, where Xserve would stay on AMDx64.

There's really no point for another high powered desktop when you have the Mac Studio around. The iMac, Mac mini and Mac Studio have the bases covered for almost all users, except corporate clients probably like Disney Animation or Hollywood post houses, in which case, offload that work on to some Xserves.

The 2019 Mac Pro was designed to be rack mounted as a server anyway.

Move the rest of the Mac lineup to have the intel code stripped out of macOS. macOS Server returns as an Intel only build.
 
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chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,709
7,279
except corporate clients probably like Disney Animation or Hollywood post houses, in which case, offload that work on to some Xserves.
These places are already doing that sort of work in Windows or Linux. They're not going to buy Xserves.
There's no place for an Xserve in today's computing world; companies have been burned by Apple's indecision on enterprise platforms enough that this is just a non-starter.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,414
8,106
Maybe they should consider discontinuing the Mac Pro and bringing back the Xserve, where Xserve would stay on AMDx64.

There's really no point for another high powered desktop when you have the Mac Studio around. The iMac, Mac mini and Mac Studio have the bases covered for almost all users, except corporate clients probably like Disney Animation or Hollywood post houses, in which case, offload that work on to some Xserves.

The 2019 Mac Pro was designed to be rack mounted as a server anyway.

Move the rest of the Mac lineup to have the intel code stripped out of macOS. macOS Server returns as an Intel only build.

God you have no idea how much I miss Xserve. It was so cool, and I want macOS back in the data center.

But yeah at this point I'm starting to think maybe the Mac Studio should be named the new Mac Pro and for the niche extreme high end crowd that would need the expandability and absurd system requirements to make something new. Call it the Mac Custom, or UltiMac, or whatever I'm sure someone can make a better name. But as it stands in Apple's "Pro" product lineup, the "Mac Pro" is the odd one out with that absurd price tag and a device that is a fraction of the cost outperforming it in almost every way.
 
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