MP 7,1 Intel prices drops causing a buying dilemma

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Now Intel had cut prices by 50% building your own workstation has gotten so much more affordable. We have AMD and Intel Xeon and Core i9 options at consumer enthusiast prices.

Here's options we have.

1/ Mac Pro 7,1 featuring last year's Xeons and two year old GPU based on 4 year old GPU. Prices rumor to start at more than $6000 for basic 8 core Xeon with Radeon 580. No i9 or overclocking options.

2/ Build your own workstation with latest Xeon/Core i9/AMD and latest Nvidia/AMD GPUs. You can build a 18-core Xeon or i9 10980XE with 2080ti or Radeon VII for $3000. This i9 10980XE allegedly can do up to 5.1ghz all core overclock with a basic liquid cooling. If true that would make the performance far ahead of the AMD options.

3/ Upgrade any existing PC you have will cut the price down significantly. If you already have the RAM, drives, GPU then the upgrade cost is about $1500 to have the high end 18 core Xeon/i9 and new motherboard.

With such amazing performance to be had at these prices the first option makes no sense. If we spec the 7,1 to match option 2 and 3 Apple will likely be charging about $12K. We lose many thousands just to use macOS which doesn't have good GPU performance compared to Windows in the first place.

I'm not advocating Hackintosh because my stance against piracy is firm. Switching to Windows makes more sense now. We can download Sharpkeys and QuickLook to get some macOS features back.

Will be good to hear from everyone about benefits of building a system and switching to Windows. No arguments about AMD vs Intel please because that's for teens to fight about in Fortnite 😂

Merci

 

[Macintosh IIcx]

Well, if you would be just as happy to work on Windows, I don’t see any dilemma - you go with option 2.

I therefore suggest that you figure out whether Windows will cut the mustard for you or not before thinking about hardware. That part is the real dilemma, IMHO.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

Option 1: MacOS
Option 2: no MacOS
Option 3: no MacOS

so Windows and *nix have cheaper options. OK.

 

[Coyote2006]

Maybe Apple reduces the price for the basic model to $5000 ...?

... ok, ok ... 😂

 

[G4DPII]

A base model 7,1 cannot compete with anything for pure power you could purchase and build for that $6000.

With that $6000, you could build a fine machine for $3000 now and then in 3 or 4 years spend the remaining $3000 on another machine that will have the latest tech. Whilst those that blew $6,000 on a base model 7,1 will be stuck with 5 year old tech.

It's a nice looking computer, if money was no object I would jump at the chance to purchase one later this year. However, the fact you need to sell a kidney to get even close to anything worth while it is just insane from a business point of view.

The Os is meaningless. Once you are inside a piece of software it makes no difference. Espcially given that Mac OS is now nothing more than a glorified Fisher Price system.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Option 1: MacOS
Option 2: no MacOS
Option 3: no MacOS

so Windows and *nix have cheaper options. OK.

That's an immature way to discuss from the 90s when Mac had a GUI and Windows was trying to have a GUI lol
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The Os is meaningless. Once you are inside a piece of software it makes no difference. Espcially given that Mac OS is now nothing more than a glorified Fisher Price system.

True OS is meaningless today. Inside apps is the only way to see this. OS should serve only to help multitask, provide drivers and frameworks.

In the case of Windows and macOS they have equal benefits and downsides. macOS has innovations but poor performance. Both systems multitask equally. IF you have crashes on macOS it is usually down to badly designed controller and you have no quick option to fix it. A PC motherboard is easily replaced but in a closed proprietary system like the Mac Pro you can be really screwed. The 7,1 has the same controller has the cursed T2.

The important benefit of the PC option is price and performance is so much better especially if you are upgrading your hand built PC every 3-5 years.

 

[PowerMike G5]

I think this really just comes down to whether you can transfer all your workload needs to a PC. If so, then going that route makes more sense, financially.

If one is set on not leaving the MacOS ecosystem, then you decide whether one of those machines will work for you, given the price.

There's also need vs want. Every car eventually gets you to where you need to go. But one buys based on a myriad of personal preferences, and spends accordingly for such. It's somewhat similar here, once you get past the pragmatic reasons of buying a Mac/PC. Are you more comfortable in MacOS? Love the hardware aesthetics? Or just enjoy the user experience more?

I can run all my media software on a PC, but choose to stay on a Mac. I love the MacOS experience, so I'm willing to pay to ultimately stay within it's hardware/software ecosystem. Other's mileage may vary.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I think this really just comes down to whether you can transfer all your workload needs to a PC. If so, then going that route makes more sense, financially.

If one is set on not leaving the MacOS ecosystem, then you decide whether one of those machines will work for you, given the price.

There's also need vs want. Every car eventually gets you to where you need to go. But one buys based on a myriad of personal preferences, and spends accordingly for such. It's somewhat similar here, once you get past the pragmatic reasons of buying a Mac/PC. Are you more comfortable in MacOS? Love the hardware aesthetics? Or just enjoy the user experience more?

I can run all my media software on a PC, but choose to stay on a Mac. I love the MacOS experience, so I'm willing to pay to ultimately stay within it's hardware/software ecosystem. Other's mileage may vary.

Switching is tough. We have to find the equally useful utilities and apps on Windows than Mac. As you all know I was benchmarking here both systems for 5+ years here and was the first person to install Windows 10 on cMP.

In that time I learned some tricks to bring the Mac feel and experience to Windows. Sharpkeys let me assign the keyboard so I can use the Apple keyboard exactly like on macOS. Now QuickLook is available as a free app on the Microsoft Store so Windows Explorer has that. I would only not have Color Labels because that meta data relies on a resource fork that Windows doesn't support.

Application wise we know already Adobe apps and 3D CGI apps are faster on Windows. We don't have Final Cut but we have Resolve which is free for the basic but very useful features and not too expensive for the Studio version. If you rely on Logic then there's Cubase which is equal and VSTs are available for both systems.

 

[Macintosh IIcx]

Switching is tough. We have to find the equally useful utilities and apps on Windows than Mac. As you all know I was benchmarking here both systems for 5+ years here and was the first person to install Windows 10 on cMP.

In that time I learned some tricks to bring the Mac feel and experience to Windows. Sharpkeys let me assign the keyboard so I can use the Apple keyboard exactly like on macOS. Now QuickLook is available as a free app on the Microsoft Store so Windows Explorer has that. I would only not have Color Labels because that meta data relies on a resource fork that Windows doesn't support.

Application wise we know already Adobe apps and 3D CGI apps are faster on Windows. We don't have Final Cut but we have Resolve which is free for the basic but very useful features and not too expensive for the Studio version. If you rely on Logic then there's Cubase which is equal and VSTs are available for both systems.

Yeah, QuickLook is important. Was looking into that too. And there actually is a way to get color labels on Windows: FileMarker but I havn't used it. Also not sure how that app stores the color data in the file system.

This might also be of interest to you in regards to Sharpkeys. Found that when I was pondering switching the ctrl and alt key for Windows (no way I'm going to use the ctrl key for copy/paste/save etc - it would kill me fingers!).

 

[PowerMike G5]

I think your experience highlights the practical differences in moving to a PC from a Mac. It's very easy to look at it from a strictly numbers standpoint: Same hardware power for less on a PC = that makes more sense. But it usually never does, which is why these cost comparisons come up all the time over the years.

My viewpoint is if you are more productive/comfortable on MacOs, then it doesn't warrant a move over to PC, unless you view the price difference as something egregious. Because ultimately, one is paying more than just hardware specs here. On the Mac, your essentially paying for the software exeprience and integration as well.

I think this would be something more to explore if one uses their computer just for personal use. But if you make a living using these machines, I think it makes more sense to stay on a platform that you will be most comfortable on. I tax my Macs heavily on the hardware side with all my video work and I know I can get more power on a custom PC. But my comfort and liking of MacOS allows me to be a lot more productive... not think about the hardware/software, and just lets me get my work done. And all the income that comes from that means paying for a new Mac Pro (for me) is worth it. I can just set it up and keep working and generating, all on a platform I enjoy using day-to-day. Time and daily user experience are worth more to me than saving a couple grand ultimately. I'd rather be happy and enjoy my work experience day in and day out, so that's where I invest my money these days.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

That's an immature way to discuss from the 90s when Mac had a GUI and Windows was trying to have a GUI lol

You're on a Mac forum, it's a perfectly logical assessment. One option you presented is relevant to the topic of the forum, two aren't. Maybe you just discovered that Windows and *nix solutions are cheaper but I'd expect the vast majority of the forum members knew that yet appreciate MacOS anyway.

 

[orph]

I think it's a tad complex and fun topic plus will need some time to see how things work out as both the new intel CPU/mobos are not out yet and the mac pro is not out yet so it's still all up in the air.

we may hit a paper launch on intel side with inflated prices, we even see AMD hitting that problem at the mo.
(still find it funny to see AMD cpu's sell over the marked price

)

the mac pro is a different platform, feature sets look very different both from PCIE lanes to osx/windows
ideally the new intel CPU/mobos may be a godly hackintosh but until it's out it's up in the air

This i9 10980XE allegedly can do up to 5.1ghz all core overclock with a basic liquid cooling. If true that would make the performance far ahead of the AMD options.

now that i find relay hard to believe, iv not used the platform but iv seen videos about the platform showing it's just not simple to hit 5ghz

in that video it shows with video workloads 3.3ghz is what you will see with a 280 CLC and closer to 2.8GHZ with AVX 512 and that's hiring about 100c
later in the video they de lid and lap the cpu
he's using the 7980XE 18c/36t he ends up with a direct die liquid cooling and only running at about 3GHZ all core! (hitting around 80c+)

it's a fun video and all the work he puts in shows why lots of people don't want to DIY and just grab a mac

this video is fun to

so it relay is fun and complex and depends on what you do/want from a system

never mind that in windows land TR2 is out soon and that's all up in the air.

so for now it's just at dreams and unicorns

iv been looking hard at making a AM4 computer but the lack of PCI lanes is such a killer coming from a mac pro, so hard to look at a lower platform after being used to a higher end (if old) setup.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

You're on a Mac forum, it's a perfectly logical assessment. One option you presented is relevant to the topic of the forum, two aren't. Maybe you just discovered that Windows and *nix solutions are cheaper but I'd expect the vast majority of the forum members knew that yet appreciate MacOS anyway.

Your original comment and this one makes you look like you forgot who are the regular contributors here. I'm the 52 years old professional who has been posting about cMP upgrades and benchmarks for 5+ years to help our community. I was the first to install PCIE solid state drives and also in RAID 0, the first to install the GTX 980 to show the beta support many months before Nvidia admitted it, the first to install Windows 10 in Bootcamp, the first to install USB-C cards, etc.

We also have one 80 years old professional here who was the first to install FOUR Titan cards in a cMP. Hope he is well we didn't see him for a long time.

Let us long timers and old timers discuss. You can sit and enjoy this civil discussion and education.
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I think it's a tad complex and fun topic plus will need some time to see how things work out as both the new intel CPU/mobos are not out yet and the mac pro is not out yet so it's still all up in the air.

we may hit a paper launch on intel side with inflated prices, we even see AMD hitting that problem at the mo.
(still find it funny to see AMD cpu's sell over the marked price

)

the mac pro is a different platform, feature sets look very different both from PCIE lanes to osx/windows
ideally the new intel CPU/mobos may be a godly hackintosh but until it's out it's up in the air


now that i find relay hard to believe, iv not used the platform but iv seen videos about the platform showing it's just not simple to hit 5ghz

in that video it shows with video workloads 3.3ghz is what you will see with a 280 CLC and closer to 2.8GHZ with AVX 512 and that's hiring about 100c
later in the video they de lid and lap the cpu
he's using the 7980XE 18c/36t he ends up with a direct die liquid cooling and only running at about 3GHZ all core! (hitting around 80c+)

it's a fun video and all the work he puts in shows why lots of people don't want to DIY and just grab a mac

this video is fun to

so it relay is fun and complex and depends on what you do/want from a system

never mind that in windows land TR2 is out soon and that's all up in the air.

so for now it's just at dreams and unicorns

iv been looking hard at making a AM4 computer but the lack of PCI lanes is such a killer coming from a mac pro, so hard to look at a lower platform after being used to a higher end (if old) setup.

My position will be that next month we hope to see benchmarks of the new Xeon and Core i9 family. If Mac Pro is released soon then we will see concurrent benchmarks and this will really help shine a light and answer our questions. I see big debates about this will happen across the next month. PC reviewers will be overclocking naturally so we will learn what are the real achievable speeds.

If the benchmarks and buying experiences make the 7,1 look bad it's going to be interesting times but nothing we didn't see already in 2013-2014.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Yeah, QuickLook is important. Was looking into that too. And there actually is a way to get color labels on Windows: FileMarker but I havn't used it. Also not sure how that app stores the color data in the file system.

This might also be of interest to you in regards to Sharpkeys. Found that when I was pondering switching the ctrl and alt key for Windows (no way I'm going to use the ctrl key for copy/paste/save etc - it would kill me fingers!).

I will take a look at FileMarker thanks. If someone could make that compatible with macOS labels it would be great but as I understand the resource forks are so different. FileMarker must be storing the data in its own application database.

 

[MisterAndrew]

I don't understand the point of this thread. We're still complaining about the 7,1s price? How many threads are we at now? Also, the 7,1 isn't using last years Xenons. They are new models Intel announced in concert with the 7,1.

 

[mrex]

Option 1: MacOS
Option 2: no MacOS
Option 3: no MacOS

so Windows and *nix have cheaper options. OK.

Macos or linux - linux. Macos or windows - windows. Linux or windows - it depends...

Macos only for macs, when others are not needed or possible. I really dont understand this glorification of macos - it is absolutely horrible! It has been horrible from the beginning and it still is. I use linux, win and macos daily, at home macos on everyday. I do like automator/scripts in macos for example. I use them on my home laptop daily. But i prefer win over macos overall, it just works - for everything.

My biggest gripe is terrible network protocols in macos. Apple depricated afp, and smb support in macos is just horrible.

 

[locovaca]

My biggest gripe is terrible network protocols in macos. Apple depricated afp, and smb support in macos is just horrible.

There is always NFS if you don’t like SMB, and AFP still works just fine, deprecated or not.

 

[mrex]

There is always NFS if you don’t like SMB, and AFP still works just fine, deprecated or not.

It also means that afp isnt developed (and hadnt been developed) and other manufacturers stop supporting it. That also means that newer file systems might be a problem too, e.g. Apples new apfs and afp.

And smb isnt a problem of ”likes” but rather a problem in macos. There are many ”how to fix” articles about slow smb in macos - even apple has documented some ”trials” to try to fix this issue.

 

[MarkC426]

I think this really just comes down to whether you can transfer all your workload needs to a PC. If so, then going that route makes more sense, financially.

If one is set on not leaving the MacOS ecosystem, then you decide whether one of those machines will work for you, given the price.

There's also need vs want. Every car eventually gets you to where you need to go. But one buys based on a myriad of personal preferences, and spends accordingly for such. It's somewhat similar here, once you get past the pragmatic reasons of buying a Mac/PC. Are you more comfortable in MacOS? Love the hardware aesthetics? Or just enjoy the user experience more?

I can run all my media software on a PC, but choose to stay on a Mac. I love the MacOS experience, so I'm willing to pay to ultimately stay within it's hardware/software ecosystem. Other's mileage may vary.

I second that......

I jumped from windows many many years ago, as all my main software was multi platform, so thought i’d give it a go, and have never looked back.

It definitely comes down to the user experience.
macOS, for me trounces on windoze (which I have to suffer with at work).

 

[thisisnotmyname]

Macos or linux - linux. Macos or windows - windows. Linux or windows - it depends...

Macos only for macs, when others are not needed or possible. I really dont understand this glorification of macos - it is absolutely horrible! It has been horrible from the beginning and it still is. I use linux, win and macos daily, at home macos on everyday. I do like automator/scripts in macos for example. I use them on my home laptop daily. But i prefer win over macos overall, it just works - for everything.

My biggest gripe is terrible network protocols in macos. Apple depricated afp, and smb support in macos is just horrible.

This is a Mac forum. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want of any Apple product or service or those of any other manufacturer but people that come here just to expound upon the virtues of everything else (e.g. *nix and Windows) are pretty trolly. I'm sure there are plenty of forums on the internet dedicated to either of those OSes.

As to SMB performance, Apple implemented packet signing and in typical Apple fashion of putting privacy and security first defaulted to enabling it. Most people on trusted networks don't need it but it's on by default. That comes with a performance hit but can be turned off if you don't want it and then the SMB performance is just fine. Windows 10 also supports packet signing (it's part of the SMB standard now) but doesn't enable it by default. If you turn it on in Win10 your transfers slow down just like they do on MacOS. This isn't an Apple issue with SMB, it's the Apple philosophy of securing things as best they can and allowing you to disable those protections if you wish vs leaving everything open and making you lock down what you want secure. Different people appreciate different approaches, your mileage may vary.

 

[startergo]

I really hope the iPad gets closer to a real computer performance providing the ipados gets closer to OSX. Then I will switch to iPad for Mac interface. For now I have upgraded one of my PCs with i7-9700k (no hyperthreading). Of course this is not e server CPU but 8 cores are enough for my needs now and the only limitation is the RAM 64GB only at the maximum frequency of 3600mhz. One of the drives will be dedicated to Hackintosh so it will be my MP7.1 for a while. The motherboard is Asus rog z390-E with 2 native M2 slots. The whole upgrade was below 900$ so it is very affordable option.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

I was just reading the articles on Intel's price cutting last night. We'll see what the used market does for Xeon prices in a few months. Some Xeon E5-26xx v4 high clock / core count units have already taken a nosedive on ebay. Chips that were nearly $3k in 2016 are hitting the 2-$400 range. Good times.

My sweet spot is a combination of high core count and clock. This is why dual socket is missed so much in 7,1. Anything 10+ cores and 3+GHz is right up my alley. 2 of them in the same box is better. As I become more familiar with building Hackintosh from scratch, used Z series continues to impress. They make a sane bridge between cmp and 7,1.

I will continue to Hackintosh for now, no need to switch to Windows.

YMMV.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

I was just reading the articles on Intel's price cutting last night. We'll see what the used market does for Xeon prices in a few months. Some Xeon E5-26xx v4 high clock / core count units have already taken a nosedive on ebay. Chips that were nearly $3k in 2016 are hitting the 2-$400 range. Good times.

My sweet spot is a combination of high core count and clock. This is why dual socket is missed so much in 7,1. Anything 10+ cores and 3+GHz is right up my alley. 2 of them in the same box is better. As I become more familiar with building Hackintosh from scratch, used Z series continues to impress. They make a sane bridge between cmp and 7,1.

I will continue to Hackintosh for now, no need to switch to Windows.

YMMV.

I did my PC build on this forum about 18 months ago. It was 8700K overclocked to 5ghz, 32 gigs of 4000Mhz memory, 1TB Samsung 960 Pro, Geforce Titan Xp. Except for CG render, is still nothing that Apple offers to beat it, especially because the overclock and very fast memory makes it run much faster than a standard six core 8700K.

To upgrade this system to the i9 10980XE will cost about 1500 euros for the CPU and new motherboard. I will get some money back from selling the 8700K which will pay for a new 1200w PSU.

My 4 sticks of DDR4 memory is dual channel now and will become quad channel in the new motherboard.

I will see what is the max clock speed reached by reviewers next month. Maybe I go for the 12 core i9. The results and reviews will decide for me.

The motherboard I have my eye on is this MSI Creator X299 which is an incredible beauty with dream specs. It has three m.2 slots on board and includes a card that holds four extra m.2 slots.

 

[shuto]

MSI Creator X299

How weird is it that MSI's page for that motherboard they have this image...

Just to remind us of how great Macs really are instead of RGB bling motherboards.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

How weird is it that MSI's page for that motherboard they have this image...

Just to remind us of how great Macs really were

Edit for more accuracy It's a clever subliminal marketing on that page designed to remind Mac users about when workstations were more affordable. They are asking you to come to the 'dark side'

RGB can be disabled but gamers use it for alerts and some deskside light when they turn the room lights off. You can program them to make shine when an email comes, etc. These things were designed with a purpose that is easy to ignore because some people do make bling builds. I prefer to disable it because I have a Philips Hue network of lights anyway.