iPhone O2 and Orange T&C confusion

[Zedsdead185]

Hi,
so everyone british (including myself) is a bit annoyed how orange messed up the tariff prices for its upcoming iphone release. One particular snippet of the orange terms and conditions that put me off was this:

[mobile internet] Not to be used for other activities (e.g. using your handset as a modem, non-Orange internet based streaming services, voice or video over the internet, instant messaging, peer to peer file sharing, non-Orange internet based video)

of course, this made me wonder what the point in getting an iphone on orange was (along with the 750mb thing, but thats a different story) so i decided to look into O2's iphone T&C, only to find the same thing:

The Web Bolt On allows you unlimited use of Telefónica O2 UK Limited's Edge/GPRS/ 3G networks (as applicable to your handset), for personal internet use via your mobile phone. All usage must be for your private, personal and non-commercial purposes. You may not use your SIM Card:
in, or connected to, any other device including modems;
to allow the continuous streaming of any audio / video content, enable Voice over Internet (Voip), P2P or file sharing; or
in such a way that adversely impacts the service to other O2 customers.

and yes, the iphone data charges count as a bolt on accordding to the T&C.

Does this mean that your not supposed to use youtube, skype, IM's, spotify etc etc with O2 neither?

 

[wowipod]

Hi,
so everyone british (including myself) is a bit annoyed how orange messed up the tariff prices for its upcoming iphone release. One particular snippet of the orange terms and conditions that put me off was this:



of course, this made me wonder what the point in getting an iphone on orange was (along with the 750mb thing, but thats a different story) so i decided to look into O2's iphone T&C, only to find the same thing:



and yes, the iphone data charges count as a bolt on accordding to the T&C.

Does this mean that your not supposed to use youtube, skype, IM's, spotify etc etc with O2 neither?

To me O2 is saying as long as its for non commercial use its ok.

 

[Mac Rules]

To me O2 is saying as long as its for non commercial use its ok.

+1 Thats how I read it.

 

[wowipod]

Re-reading the orange quote there, unless there is a similar clause to the O2 one (non-commercial use) then there is a huge restriction on what you can use the Orange network for.

Surely they would know the major reason for people getting the iPhone is for the majority of purposes they say you aren't allowed to do.

 

[amirite]

Am I missing the part on the o2 one about IM?

 

[ramases]

I believe on O2 the relevant sentence is

"You may not use your SIM Card: in, or connected to, any other device including modems;"

My reading of this would be that as long as you use the iPhone in its prescribed manner and do not tether it, or remove the sim card and put it in another phone, usb modem etc then you are fine under the O2 T&C's.

For me I don't see any advantage in moving from O2 to Orange - there is a definite usage data cap. Sure Orange will claim to have a better 3G network, but from my experience unless you have a business account on Orange, O2 has the better customer service.

 

[koobcamuk]

Am I missing the part on the o2 one about IM?

+1

The OP didn't read it properly.

 

[FXT 1]

I believe on O2 the relevant sentence is

"You may not use your SIM Card: in, or connected to, any other device including modems;"

My reading of this would be that as long as you use the iPhone in its prescribed manner and do not tether it, or remove the sim card and put it in another phone, usb modem etc then you are fine under the O2 T&C's.

Your allowed to remove your SIM and use it in another phone. The apple website even suggests you do so if your iPhone goes in for repair. Mine went in under insurance and so I used an old motorola for a few weeks.

 

[goosnarrggh]

You may not use your SIM Card:
in, or connected to, any other device including modems;
to allow the continuous streaming of any audio / video content, enable Voice over Internet (Voip), P2P or file sharing; or
in such a way that adversely impacts the service to other O2 customers.

That's three separate clauses divided by "or". Which means all three are applicable independently from one another.

So, it does seem to say that you cannot use your SIM card for "continuous" streaming of audio/video. That would seem to cast some doubt on services such as YouTube and the like. However, I think it depends on how they define "continuous". Does watching the occasional 30-second video clip count as "continuous" streaming? Or would you have to be literally watching YouTube 24/7 in order to qualify as "continuous"?

It also specifically says they don't want you using VoIP. No qualifications there. Obviously, since people have been using Skype on their O2 iPhones for quite some time now, it appears that O2 has elected not to actively enforce this requirement so far.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no authorized apps for P2P or filesharing right now anyway, so that requirement should be fairly easy for customers to obey. (Thought experiment: Would MobileMe count as a "filesharing" service? You're sharing a repository of files amongst a cloud of computers...)

Any other use that "adversely impacts the service to other O2 customers" would probably qualify as general bandwidth hogging. I'd like to think they already have the technology available on their end to automatically level out the usage amongst all connected clients, so that no one phone gets priority access to the network at the expense of any other phone. So they should be able to take care of that requirement seamlessly in the background without the customer needing to consciously change their usage habits at all.

 

[Zedsdead185]

Am I missing the part on the o2 one about IM?

sorry, my bad, after a quick re-read i realise that IM's aren't mentioned the O2 one.

 

[Zedsdead185]

Re-reading the orange quote there, unless there is a similar clause to the O2 one (non-commercial use) then there is a huge restriction on what you can use the Orange network for.

Surely they would know the major reason for people getting the iPhone is for the majority of purposes they say you aren't allowed to do.

Well heres the whole snippet from the T&C. It doesn't say anything about commercial use.

Inclusive Mobile Internet. Mobile internet browsing is for use within the UK only. Any use outside the UK will be charged at the relevant international rates. Mobile Internet browsing does not include event charges such as for ringtones or games (transport costs for these events are included). Fair Usage policy of 750MB applies. Usage above this amount will constitute abuse and Orange may monitor usage, apply Network protection controls which may result in reduced speed of transmission and/or withdraw the Offer from your account if the fair usage policy is abused. Not to be used for other activities (e.g. using your handset as a modem, non-Orange internet based streaming services, voice or video over the internet, instant messaging, peer to peer file sharing, non-Orange internet based video). Should such use be detected notice may be given and Network protection controls applied to all services which Orange does not believe constitutes mobile browsing. This may result in reduced speed of transmission, suspension of data browsing services and/or suspension of your account.

so in a whole, i take it this means that there are things in the O2 contract that are being completely ignored? Skype and youtube are quite common apps. And even the whole, using the sim card in another phone is apparently advised by apple in some situations.
This is making things very complicated for me, whats the point in these contracts if they only pay attention to certain parts of it?

 

[The Phazer]

We have had this conversation many times before.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/428847/

The O2 contract very much explicitly says you cannot use streaming media.

It also specifically says they don't want you using VoIP. No qualifications there. Obviously, since people have been using Skype on their O2 iPhones for quite some time now, it appears that O2 has elected not to actively enforce this requirement so far.

Skype only works over wifi. These are the conditions for using the internet over your 3G connection, so it's not relevant. You're contractually restricted from jailbreaking and using Skype with 3G unrestrictor though.

So, it does seem to say that you cannot use your SIM card for "continuous" streaming of audio/video. That would seem to cast some doubt on services such as YouTube and the like. However, I think it depends on how they define "continuous". Does watching the occasional 30-second video clip count as "continuous" streaming? Or would you have to be literally watching YouTube 24/7 in order to qualify as "continuous"?

The strict legal definition means the word "continuous" is pretty irrelevant here. It means streaming period. It may have been an attempt to suggest that a 30 second YouTube clip was okay, but in strict legal terms you're still breaching the contract by doing so.

so in a whole, i take it this means that there are things in the O2 contract that are being completely ignored?

If you mean "not being actively enforced" then sure. But a party in a contract is quite entitled to do that and it happens every day in all sorts of agreements.

None of this is any great surprise - 3G as a protocol is no good at streaming continuous media. If lots of people do it even the best 3G network will quickly fall to bits and take the voice calls out with it. It is just a shame the ASA persists in letting companies call limited connections (even for good reasons) unlimited, because they're not.

Vodaphone previously *have* allowed this on other handsets, and even there I'd be surprised if the iPhone contract didn't block it.

Orange's bit about "no IM" is as cheeky as hell though.

Phazer

 

[Zedsdead185]

Thanks Phazer
It makes me wonder if we are overlooking the orange contracts T&C's. Maybe these snippets of the contract will be enforced just as loosely as the similar O2 T&C's. Same goes with the 750mb fair usage. Will orange really send a warning the minute you go over the 750mb? or maybe your only applicable for a warning if your causing a problem with data transfers in the network and you've gone over 750mb that month?
I dunno, and i don't think anyone else will until orange do release the iphones next week. In the meantime, i'm thinking its too much of a gamble to take to assume orange are gonna be just as leniant as O2.

 

[Zedsdead185]

Orange has, however, commented to the BBC - saying: "We do recognise that iPhone customers will use popular streaming services such as YouTube, Spotify etc. As a result we do not intend to apply network protection controls to anyone, as long as they are within their usage allowance. The T&Cs are in place to reserve the right to restrict access should they continue to exceed our Fair Usage policy, and our other Mobile data users suffer a reduced data experience as a result".

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/29250/orange-tncs-ban-many-iphone-apps

Well, thats a relief. What with this news, and the news that they are going to re-look at the fair usage 750mb cap policy, i figure things with orange will end up being as leniant as O2 afterall.
Heres hoping that they at least heighten the roaming data cap from 750mb, and get rid of it altogether for the wi-fi.
Even so, i feel a lot more comfortable with settling for orange now.

 

[The Phazer]

Heres hoping that they at least heighten the roaming data cap from 750mb, and get rid of it altogether for the wi-fi.

There is no wi-fi cap on Orange, since they don't provide any wi-fi with the tarriff.

Phazer

 

[andybno1]

Hi,
so everyone british (including myself) is a bit annoyed how orange messed up the tariff prices for its upcoming iphone release.

how do you know it's orange that have messed up? since the tariffs closely match O2 that to me says Apple have restricted what orange can offer

 

[jalum]

update on useage

hey just found this as have ordered iphone and was becoming concerned about impeeded functionality but orange have confirmed...well follow this link to the bbc to see...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2009/11/oranges_unlimited_iphone.html

am much relieved, seems they realised the wieght of popular opinion would have people canceling their pre-orders in droves, I know i may well have done.

 

[Zedsdead185]

There is no wi-fi cap on Orange, since they don't provide any wi-fi with the tarriff.

I meant as in access to wi-fi hotspots such as btopenzone. Althought they they are not asterisked on the tariffs screen there is still this snippet in the T&C

Inclusive WiFi - use of BT Openzone hotspots in the UK only . Fair Usage policy of 750MB applies . Usage above 750MB per month may result in suspension of Wifi services and/or suspension of your account. The 750MB Fair Usage Policy does not apply when using your iPhone on domestic WiFi. Note however that some domestic broadband packages have download limits and customers should be aware that using the iPhone to access the web through domestic WiFi will contribute to domestic data usage.