Is Apple becoming Microsoft

[fjs08]

I've been an Apple/Mac fan since the '80's. However my MacBook Pro and Leopard are starting to get annoying. I have crashes each day. I have to restart programs like iCal a few times a week. I try to eject drives and I'm told they are in use when they aren't. Many web sites don't allow me to print as I can on my wifes XP. Even Firefox won't work on some sites. I have to turn my printers on and off to get them to run. My scanner, that I bought at an Apple store works, then doesn't. I have to actually shut down OSX and cold reboot, and I can get one scan in.

It's the crashes that annoy me the most. My old Powerbook never crashed, until OSX totally crashed after 3 years. That wasn't fun. Even my wife has noticed I've complained more about this Mac and OS than ever before. Are there just too many things to run??? Is OSX overwhelmed, or do I just have a problem computer.

I noticed there was a Software upgrade the other nite that literally took hours to download and install. I've never seen one like that before. Are there that many things wrong, or are they just adding things. I'm not a windows fan at all, but my Mac is getting annoying.

Am I the only one having so many problems???

Thanks.

Frank

 

[Teddy's]

Same here. My good old Powerbook 1Ghz is almost flawless. When it comes to my MacBook Pro... I have used AppleCare about 4 times. Mostly, hardware related problems. I don't have issues like crashes and kernel panics. Some apps crash once a week but not as frequently as the winPC I use at work.

I wouldn't be that blunt to say Apple is becoming Microsoft in Mac terms.

 

[fjs08]

>>I wouldn't be that blunt to say Apple is becoming Microsoft in Mac terms.<<

I hope not, but I do notice the problems seem to have surfaced once more applications have surfaced. They are great apps, but seems Apple may be spreading itself out too thinly?????

Frank

 

[edesignuk]

I don't think it's at all unfair to say that Apple's quality certainly has taken a substantial turn for the worse in recent years.

Problem is they're making more money than ever, so the share holders don't care, there for why should Apple Computers, Inc??

It's a shame and it sucks, but what can you do?

 

[scaredpoet]

I've been an Apple/Mac fan since the '80's. However my MacBook Pro and Leopard are starting to get annoying. I have crashes each day. I have to restart programs like iCal a few times a week. I try to eject drives and I'm told they are in use when they aren't. Many web sites don't allow me to print as I can on my wifes XP. Even Firefox won't work on some sites. I have to turn my printers on and off to get them to run. My scanner, that I bought at an Apple store works, then doesn't. I have to actually shut down OSX and cold reboot, and I can get one scan in.

You're going to probably fume at this, but: HAVE you tried a clean install of Leopard? It does seem to solve a lot of problems that people have with it.

And no, Apple is a long way from becoming Microsoft. Try installing Vista to find that nothing works at all. For a month. Until vendors get around to writing new drivers (and then find out that some simply *won't* write new drivers and you're SOL).

 

[JSchwage]

I have actually been thinking about this lately too. It seems that with certain things, Apple is just out to get people's money. I mean, $20 for an iPod touch upgrade that includes apps that should have been there in the first place? They drop the price of the iPhone by $100 only a couple months after they first release it. They better clean up their act.

 

[iAmLegend]

success = apathy

 

[scaredpoet]

I don't think it's at all unfair to say that Apple's quality certainly has taken a substantial turn for the worse in recent years.

No, I do think it is unfair... not because I'm defending Apple... they've had PLENTY of quality control issues in the past. I don't think it's been any different.

What has changed is that more people are using Macs and they're more vocal about complaints. As has been observed numerous times, the forums have a megaphone effect, where the people with issues are the ones speaking up and so it seems like everyone is having problems. And while it does suck that some people are having problems, that doesn't meant that everyone - or even a majority of people - are having them.

 

[edesignuk]

No, I do think it is unfair... not because I'm defending Apple... they've had PLENTY of quality control issues in the past. I don't think it's been any different.

Absolutely, I'm not saying it's all since the Intel swap, the last gen or two of the PPC devices I think are where large spread more notable problems really started to arise.

iBook logic boards anyone?
PowerBook screens?
etc, etc...

Certain OS updates have also been significantly more disastrous than others.

 

[SolrFlare]

As stated, it's primarily an issue of expanded market more than anything else. The percentage of QC issues is about the same, but the marketsize is much larger. This also has other impacts which are not technical in nature like overworked support centers, etc.

Now, that said, I don't think a single person can deny that apple expanding into new markets hasn't had an impact either. I think it's safe to say that the amount of bugs/incompleteness of the launch version of 10.5 is almost certainly due to Jobs pulling developers from Leopard to work on the iphone. It not only delayed Leopard's launch but impacted it's development.

But, is apple turning into Microsoft? lol no. Case in point: the number of people with actual disasterous issues with 10.5.2 is fairly small(although they are quite vocal). Most of the 10.5.2 complaints are more along the lines of x didn't get fixed like I wanted it to. Absolutely a valid complaint, but considering the volume of fixes in the short time span, it's not surprising at all that they couldn't get everything. Vice versa, take service pack 1 for Vista. It takes 1 to 3 hours just to install the patch after you've downloaded it, the amount of real world valuable fixes present beyond the rollup of existing patches is very small.

I do, however, think Apple needs to pause for a moment at some point in the near future and focus on improving their existing processes instead of expanding the market. But it isn't anywhere near as bad as people seem to think. It's mostly a perception issue.

 

[mheidt]

I can't remember a OS X version which was stable with patch 2.
Let's wait a couple of patches before judging Leopard.

If you really have a problem, the support wasn't good a couple of years either. They just don't have enough people.

Apple has been too money orientated the last years. Actually since .mac.
It should be possible to use all .mac services in the apps with your own OS X Server.

I think, that the following products are the "dark side" of Apple:
.mac, iTunes Store (the DRM-part), iPhone (carrier bound), ?TV (focused on rental instead of being a cool 5.1 box supporting avi/divx also).

But nowadays I see Google as a bigger thread for freedom than Microsoft anyway.

I'm owning Apple products only and using OS X since OS 10.1

 

[clevin]

random thoughts

1. always do "clean installation" with new OS. modern OSes are getting so complicated. Update will always have problem here and there.

I never dare to update my Ubuntu from official server.
My Mini's upgrading to leopard causes safari to be un-open-able even when the machine was almost as exact same configuration as new one.
I never did windows upgrade neither

2.The model of apple's business. Tightly bundle software and hardware, when facing expansion of market, shows the inability of maintaining high QC, which is, obviously, reasonable. And thats the bottle neck of apple's business until they separate OS and Hardwares. I understand OSX will have numerous problem when released to all kinds of combo of hardwares, but thats eventually the way out.

3. Among windows users, M$ has alot to be critic of, while among mac users, significant proportion of users treat apple and SJ as "GOD", refuse to admit any advantages of other OSes, and never admit any shortcomings of OSX, its unhealthy and not helpful for apple's business when facing expanded market, since most windows users have no such respect for manufacturers.

Take a look, if 10.5.2 is still not golden quality, then this Leopard is 5~6 months too early when released last Oct, why apple can always release "beta" as final w/o blames? Isn't it sad that users should always expect that their systems WILL be stable after 5~6 months and 3 patches (600MB download and 1.5G installation size)? Vista might have this or that problem, but definitely not this "beta" when released.

 

[SolrFlare]

And microsoft doesn't release "beta" stuff either? Most people always say wait until service pack 1 to upgrade a microsoft OS. I'm not saying you aren't right about it being silly that people pay to beta test software. But Microsoft is anything but innocent in this regard either. It's actually an industry wide trend that has been sparked by the everpresent availablility of the internet.

So, yes, Leopard was released too soon, but Vista was no gem at launch either. In fact, it's one of MS's worst launches ever however they try to spin it. And, it's been the biggest reason behind the boom in Apple's computer marketshare the last year.

So, you're right that Apple gets away with a little bit of murder, but then so does every major software developer.

 

[barijazz]

Leopard like all new OSs is having some bugs. In a few months apple will have fixed most of them, the reason we can burn vista is because xp still sucked even after the updates. Give it some time, the engineers cannot test the OS on every hardware/ software configuration.

 

[clevin]

of course M$ isn't perfect in releasing mature products. This is all about the extend of "pre-mature".

Yeah, people complain about Vista when launched, but what are the complains? they don't like this function, they dislike that settings. etc.

Take a look at leopard, complains are, wi-fi dropping, time machine broke, etc, its not something works properly but annoying people, its about something not working as expected!

Now, consider Apple only have limited hardware combo to worry about, and they have no large amount of legacy support to worry about, they SHOULD have more chance to get it right.

Take a look at safari for windows beta, its beta quality is even worse than firefox 3 alpha. Apple's standard of software quality is way too low. Why should Mac users tolerate that?

 

[Stampyhead]

They drop the price of the iPhone by $100 only a couple months after they first release it. They better clean up their act.

It was actually a $200 price drop, and I'm failing to see why that's a bad thing.

...Even Firefox won't work on some sites... My scanner, that I bought at an Apple store works, then doesn't.

Neither Firefox nor your scanner are Apple products, so I don't understand why them not working properly is a sign of Apple being like Microsoft

 

[MacBiscuit]

Leopard like all new OSs is having some bugs. In a few months apple will have fixed most of them, the reason we can burn vista is because xp still sucked even after the updates. Give it some time, the engineers cannot test the OS on every hardware/ software configuration.

This would be acceptable if new customers had the option of the previous OS. Although Vista isn't great, XP was (is?) still available in Parallel. Once 10.5 was out, 10.4 was immediately unavailable, despite the fact that some may consider 10.5 still too unstable for a critical system.

 

[Neil321]

Is Apple becoming microsoft = God help us all if it ever does

 

[superleccy]

To the OP: Yes I do think that Apple is getting slowly but surely more Microsoft-ish as the years go on, and no I don't think the quality of the hardware or Leopard is perfect...

...but I'm having none of the problems that you are having.

Maybe there's just something wrong with your setup. As previously suggested, try a clean re-install and make sure you've all the latest versions of all the apps/drivers you use. Okay so you shouldn't have to go through this (I certainly have never needed to), but it might solve your problems.

If after that you're still having problems, then it sounds like you might have a hardware issue.

Good luck
SL

 

[fjs08]

>>If after that you're still having problems, then it sounds like you might have a hardware issue.<<

Even my wife, who never notices any of this has commented that I never had any of these complaints with my PowerBook. So it may be the computer.

Frank

 

[scaredpoet]

of course M$ isn't perfect in releasing mature products. This is all about the extend of "pre-mature".

Yeah, people complain about Vista when launched, but what are the complains? they don't like this function, they dislike that settings. etc.

It's more than just a couple settings. I installed Vista and half of my peripherals - scanners, printers, media card readers, the sound card inside of my computer - no longer worked at all. Programs I used to rely on also suddenly had crashes. And while I never had a blue screen in the 6 years I used XP, they started coming back in droves under Vista.

The situation has not improved much after over a year. I've given up!

Take a look at leopard, complains are, wi-fi dropping, time machine broke, etc, its not something works properly but annoying people, its about something not working as expected!

However, it's not universally true. My upgrade to Leopard, and then to 10.5.1 and 10.5.1 went flawlessly, and other have chimed in that way too.

Now, consider Apple only have limited hardware combo to worry about, and they have no large amount of legacy support to worry about, they SHOULD have more chance to get it right.

I disagree with this too. Loepard is spanning two completely different microprocessor architectures. One is little Endian, the other is big endian. One is RSIC, the other CISC. And the OS and software must be made to work equally well on both systems.

Which brings me to software: a LOT of the problesm people are experiencing relate to software packages not working as expected or itnerfering with the install process, because software dev teams have hooked into things they probably weren't supposed to. Apple has no control over what software people put on their machines.

Not trying to be an Apple apologist here, but it does seem like Apple is criticized far more often than other platforms when problems pop up, probably more than is really deserved if the playing field were level.

So again, is Apple becoming like Microsoft? No, they can't. Because Apple folks are waaaaay more vocal about bugs, and are far quicker to make a stink.

 

[dkeninitz]

success = apathy

Good way to put it. I switched to Mac's in 2003 and now we have six in our household. I'm ready to go back to Windows. I had flawless - and I mean flawless - software experiences with all my Macs until Leopard. The original Leopard install was a disaster on three of my six machines (all are newer Mac/Intel devices, except for one G5 PowerPC). The 5.1 update didn't cause any problems: the 5.2 update is proving to be a worse disaster than the original Leopard install.

What makes me really nervous is that Apple seems like a company that's VERY slow to acknowledge bugs, and even slower to address them. I seldom see interim patches, so I imagine I'll be waiting for 5.3 before there are any fixes to 5.2.

So far I've got one of my machines back to 10.5.1, with three more to go (the update worked okay on two). That's after spending two hours on the phone with Apple, which were worthless: did you try rebooting, did you repair disk permissions, did you reset your PRAM, did you run the maintenance scripts. What's the point in even calling?

My problems so far with Leopard eclipse anything I experienced in nearly 20 years of DOS and Windows; the very reason I switched to Macs - elegance and stability - seems to be slipping away, and I no longer see any point in paying a premium for a system that has lost those advantages.

 

[takeabyteoutta]

I have actually been thinking about this lately too. It seems that with certain things, Apple is just out to get people's money. I mean, $20 for an iPod touch upgrade that includes apps that should have been there in the first place? They drop the price of the iPhone by $100 only a couple months after they first release it. They better clean up their act.

wait wait wait.... Apple drops the price of a brand new item so more people can afford it and you say they're out to get people's money. they lost more $ by dropping it $200, then if they had just cut the price by $100. and they gave a $100 rebate.

you also never hear complaints about other cell phones, where prices drop incredibly rapidly. example:

the KRZR. it came out in fall 06 and cost $100 with a subscription. by spring 07, it was down to $50. a 50% price CUT! why aren't you getting pssed at motorola, verizon and every other cell phone manufactor/service provider.

 

[TheNorthWaves]

Apple is slow to acknowledge bugs? Perhaps. How about microsoft who turns the other way and then pressures you to upgrade to the latest and greatest garbage. Even if Apple started to look more like microsoft... Apple still wouldn't come close to making products anywhere near as frustrating and poorly-executed as microsoft. I used Windows for 16 years - every version of it. Windows is crap and most windows-based hardware is crap. Nothing in the world is perfect, but OSX/Apple is better. End of story.

 

[Erwin-Br]

Apple is slow to acknowledge bugs? Perhaps. How about microsoft who turns the other way and then pressures you to upgrade to the latest and greatest garbage. Even if Apple started to look more like microsoft... Apple still wouldn't come close to making products anywhere near as frustrating and poorly-executed as microsoft. I used Windows for 16 years - every version of it. Windows is crap and most windows-based hardware is crap. Nothing in the world is perfect, but OSX/Apple is better. End of story.

Both have their strong and weak points, but I don't think anyone can say one's better than the other. What's left is personal preference, and that's another story.

--Erwin