Is Big Sur Apple's Windows 8?

[JohnnyWalker]

What's going on with the sudden shift towards a UI designed for touch screens? Are Apple going to introduce macOS to iPads? Some of the increased spacing around UI elements really suggests that's where they're going. Just like when Microsoft decided to move Windows towards touch screens with Windows 8.

But I can't help but remember what Phil Shiller said: “You can’t optimize for both [touch and mouse/keyboard]. It’s the lowest common denominator thinking.”

I can't help but agree with him. Are Apple really going down this route? Or do they only care about unifying the visuals? (Which is also problematic, because iOS UI elements were designed for completely different input devices.)

Why else would Apple add clumsy sliders (which work brilliant for fingers, but terrible with mouse pointers) when you can just press a dedicated button on your keyboard to increase the brightness of your display or volume?

Any ideas?

 

[fisherking]

big sur is apple's new OS, which many people like, and some people don't, just as it is with any other OS that's ever been (or will be). window 8 was a microsoft OS. glad i could clear that up!

 

[FNH15]

What's going on with the sudden shift towards a UI designed for touch screens? Are Apple going to introduce macOS to iPads? Some of the increased spacing around UI elements really suggests that's where they're going. Just like when Microsoft decided to move Windows towards touch screens with Windows 8.

But I can't help but remember what Phil Shiller said: “You can’t optimize for both [touch and mouse/keyboard]. It’s the lowest common denominator thinking.”

I can't help but agree with him. Are Apple really going down this route? Or do they only care about unifying the visuals? (Which is also problematic, because iOS UI elements were designed for completely different input devices.)

Why else would Apple add clumsy sliders (which work brilliant for fingers, but terrible with mouse pointers) when you can just press a dedicated button on your keyboard to increase the brightness of your display or volume?

Any ideas?

View attachment 1633528

You can also scroll with the trackpad…
This is hardly Windows 8. The UI is still clearly designed for pointers, unlike 8 which tried to make one UI work both for tablets and mice.

 

[casperes1996]

Been using Big Sur as my daily driver since developer beta 1 and not once have I thought “this feels optimised for touch” while using it - though Control Centre specifically has left me thinking “this feels redundant and poorly designed” as the only thing. I don’t think the OS itself is touch focused. But I think Control Centre is a poor fit. It’s like it’s trying to be a bit like Bartender but worse. You can extract any element from Control Centre to the menu bar itself though where it works in a more classic fashion.
And as to why you’d use it when you have buttons on your keyboard, there’s been volume controls available in the menu bar for many many macOS/OS X releases even though you have keyboard buttons for that as well, so I wouldn’t read into this as a sign of touch being inbound.
Craig Federichi shot down any “touch Mac inbound” as recently as earlier this year after WWDC.

 

[Ritsuka]

There has been a menu extra with a slider to set the volume for almost 20 years…

 

[FNH15]

There has been a menu extra with a slider to set the volume for almost 20 years…

Yup - and before that, it was part of the Control Strip, released as a part of System 7 in 1994…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Strip

 

[me22]

Yup - and before that, it was part of the Control Strip, released as a part of System 7 in 1994…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Strip

I vaguely remember that there was even an OS 8/9 utility that put control strip items into the menu bar. Can't find it though.

 

[ondioline]

Did you actually ever use Windows 8? The comparison is hyperbole, to say the least. There is nothing in Big Sur that even comes close to the hostility of making the desktop a second-class citizen.

 

[JohnnyWalker]

Been using Big Sur as my daily driver since developer beta 1 and not once have I thought “this feels optimised for touch” while using it - though Control Centre specifically has left me thinking “this feels redundant and poorly designed” as the only thing. I don’t think the OS itself is touch focused. But I think Control Centre is a poor fit. It’s like it’s trying to be a bit like Bartender but worse. You can extract any element from Control Centre to the menu bar itself though where it works in a more classic fashion.
And as to why you’d use it when you have buttons on your keyboard, there’s been volume controls available in the menu bar for many many macOS/OS X releases even though you have keyboard buttons for that as well, so I wouldn’t read into this as a sign of touch being inbound.
Craig Federichi shot down any “touch Mac inbound” as recently as earlier this year after WWDC.

That's good to know.

There has been a menu extra with a slider to set the volume for almost 20 years…

Not by default there hasn't, because it's mostly redundant. And there's never been one for screen brightness. Honestly some Apple fans do ANYTHING to argue.

 

[JohnnyWalker]

Did you actually ever use Windows 8? The comparison is hyperbole, to say the least. There is nothing in Big Sur that even comes close to the hostility of making the desktop a second-class citizen.

Did you see the screenshot in the OP? Big tiles copied from a touch UI. Just like Windows 8. Just because they're not different colours and have rounded corners doesn't mean it's very different.

 

[junkw]

it's obvious, they added padding/margins everywhere to accomodate fingers

 

[Ritsuka]

Been there from Mac OS X 10.1. You know, there was a time when there were no keyboard keys to change the volume, and you had to use that.

 

[Bazza1]

I think the bigger concern is that it isn't Apple's Windows Vista.

I'm sure they will (eventually) get a handle on the hardware side of things, and that Rosetta 2 will (mostly) handle the 'older' software on 'obsolete' Macs (like last year's Air, Pro or Mini), but there might be a whack of features / rearranging the deck chairs done (form over function) that may make users simply ask, 'Why?'.

 

[fisherking]

I think the bigger concern is that it isn't Apple's Windows Vista.

I'm sure they will (eventually) get a handle on the hardware side of things, and that Rosetta 2 will (mostly) handle the 'older' software on 'obsolete' Macs (like last year's Air, Pro or Mini), but there might be a whack of features / rearranging the deck chairs done (form over function) that may make users simply ask, 'Why?'.

i just read that thru twice, and am still not sure what your point is....

 

[thingstoponder]

There’s nothing touch screen about it. Certain elements have a more consistent appearance with iOS now. That doesn’t mean it’s a touch interface, it means it’s more familiar and cohesive.

 

[Jason2000]

Craig Federichi shot down any “touch Mac inbound” as recently as earlier this year after WWDC.

This is true but we all know Apple says what they need to say at the moment and will change their mind when it suits them. They also said at WWDC that iOS on Mac would be an excellent experience. For that to be true Macs will need a touch screen because so many iOS apps work much better on a touch device.

 

[casperes1996]

This is true but we all know Apple says what they need to say at the moment and will change their mind when it suits them. They also said at WWDC that iOS on Mac would be an excellent experience. For that to be true Macs will need a touch screen because so many iOS apps work much better on a touch device.

I'm sure Apple would also say that using iOS apps with the Magic Keyboard + Trackpad on the iPad is an excellent experience. So no need for a touch screen

 

[FNH15]

This is true but we all know Apple says what they need to say at the moment and will change their mind when it suits them. They also said at WWDC that iOS on Mac would be an excellent experience. For that to be true Macs will need a touch screen because so many iOS apps work much better on a touch device.

Was he referring to iOS apps or apps using Catalyst? There’s a huge difference between the two, as Catalyst apps make UI adjustments to go inline with the rest of macOS.

 

[casperes1996]

This is true but we all know Apple says what they need to say at the moment and will change their mind when it suits them. They also said at WWDC that iOS on Mac would be an excellent experience. For that to be true Macs will need a touch screen because so many iOS apps work much better on a touch device.

I would just like to point to the interview by The Independent MacRumors ran an article on today where yet again Craig debunks touchscreen Macs.

 

[filmbuff]

There’s nothing touch screen about it. Certain elements have a more consistent appearance with iOS now. That doesn’t mean it’s a touch interface, it means it’s more familiar and cohesive.

Future Apple Silicon Macs dropping the function keys confirmed!

 

[darngooddesign]

It's obvious to me that this paves the way for Apple to release a convertible touchscreen Mac.

 

[casperes1996]

It's obvious to me that this paves the way for Apple to release a convertible touchscreen Mac.

I think you forgot the sarcasm /s tag. Craig literally just said no today

 

[flur]

I think you forgot the sarcasm /s tag. Craig literally just said no today

He said no touchscreen macs. He didn’t say no iPads running macOS with magic keyboards, which may very well be the direction they go. Or he may have just said that because he doesn’t want to cannibalize sales of the new macs. Either way, the unified design, ability to run iOS apps, and move towards similar chips all point toward these two product lines eventually converging.

 

[darngooddesign]

I think you forgot the sarcasm /s tag. Craig literally just said no today

They always say no...until they are ready to say yes.

Want to take a guess as to what they said about iPad mouse support several years back?

 

[casperes1996]

He said no touchscreen macs. He didn’t say no iPads running macOS with magic keyboards, which may very well be the direction they go. Or he may have just said that because he doesn’t want to cannibalize sales of the new macs. Either way, the unified design, ability to run iOS apps, and move towards similar chips all point toward these two product lines eventually converging.

They always say no...until they are ready to say yes.

Want to take a guess as to what they said about iPad mouse support several years back?

Alright; For how many years should I stand on this hill before we conclude it? I mean of course if you're right it's concluded the moment Apple does release a touch screen device that runs macOS. But for me to be right in saying it won't happen during the lifetime of what we now consider Apple; I.e. the remaining stay of the current leadership; Tim, Craig, Eddy, et al. we'd be looking at potentially many many years. If eternal life ever becomes a thing, the heat death of the universe would be the only thing that could prove this stance right. So I guess it's a mute point to fight about but I will die on this hill - I don't think it's happening. I don't want it happening.