Is Mountain Lion Bloatware?

[147798]

A controversial title, I know.

I am running a 2009 MPB 2.26 C2D with 8GB RAM.

I run regularly Lightroom and MS Outlook.

In the past, I had Snow Leopard, Lightroom 3 and MS Office 2008. I was very pleased with performance.

Recently, I upgraded to Mountain Lion, LR4 and MS Office 2011. My computer is slow now. It feels like a PC Actually, my work-issued Dell D630 feels snappier.

It would be VERY difficult for me to reverse my software versions (ML, LR and Outlook), so I'm wondering if I should:

a) rebuild my system from scratch. My ML install was an in-place upgrade, not a clean install. Would I benefit from rebuilding the system? I am not an expert at that, so it'll be a bit of a chore for me, or

b) Would ML be happier on newer hardware? My CPU fans are running pretty high, too, much more than with SL. Would everything just be happier on a new machine with the new processors, etc.

c) Should I (can I even???) swap out my DVD drive for a flash drive, and run my OS off there. Would that help at all?

Just trying to look for solutions to move forward with, rather than backwards. To get my Apple joy back.

Thanks for any help.

 

[MacDawg]

ML has been a stable upgrade for me and doesn't not feel any slower
It may not be any faster than Lion, but I have not noticed a degraded performance at all

Perhaps you should look at LR4 and MS Office 2011 as the culprits

Some will extol the virtues of a clean install, but I have never needed one myself

 

[glewis]

a) rebuild my system from scratch. My ML install was an in-place upgrade, not a clean install. Would I benefit from rebuilding the system? I am not an expert at that, so it'll be a bit of a chore for me, or

b) Would ML be happier on newer hardware? My CPU fans are running pretty high, too, much more than with SL. Would everything just be happier on a new machine with the new processors, etc.

c) Should I (can I even???) swap out my DVD drive for a flash drive, and run my OS off there. Would that help at all?

a) A fresh install may fix the issue. A quick google can show you how to do it

b) This might be due to need of clean install as others have said it works fine on their similarly specked machine

c) You can do and an SSD would definitely make things quicker, you could also just upgrade your HDD for an SSD and it will completely transform your computer and give it a new lease of life

I don't think it's bloatware but ML is probably more aimed at the 2010/2011/2012 hardware. What's wrong with just going back to Lion or even Snow Leopard?

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

 

[147798]

MacDawg: I do agree LR and Office may be the issues. But I thought I'd start exploring the OS first, to see what others are experiencing.

----------

a) A fresh install may fix the issue. A quick google can show you how to do it

b) This might be due to need of clean install as others have said it works fine on their similarly specked machine

c) You can do and an SSD would definitely make things quicker, you could also just upgrade your HDD for an SSD and it will completely transform your computer and give it a new lease of life

I don't think it's bloatware but ML is probably more aimed at the 2010/2011/2012 hardware. What's wrong with just going back to Lion or even Snow Leopard?

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Thanks!

I have a number of iOS devices, so I'm using the cloud features of ML that I didn't have access to in SL. So, I'm here to stay.

I can't use an SSL as my main drive, as I've got a large number of photos, and have a 750GB HDD upgrade inside. I haven't looked at SSD drives in a while, but I'm assuming 750GB either doesn't exist or is too much money, hence my thought to drop to a second SSD drive of lesser size. One other thought was to get a mac mini and a macbook air, and drop my photo stuff onto the mini. With dropbox, ML notes, reminders and iCloud, I'm finding the synch across my multi-devices to be very workable, so splitting into two machines might be an easy solution, albeit not cheap.

I'll check the clean install instructions. Thanks. I use a TM backup, so if I only need to install the OS then restore from TM, I could do that easily enough.

 

[jabalczar]

I flipped flopped between the two. I have a 2011 Quad i5 iMac with 12GB Ram.

I went SL - Lion - then back to SL - then to Lion again!

Then did a clean install to ML - then back to SL just last night. Then finally back to ML this morning, as an upgrade from SL.!!!

A few things I noticed:

SL was very very fast, Lion slowed my computer down. I had to put 12 GB of Ram in.

When I installed ML the first time, there was a speed bump over Lion, the computer felt snappier.

Last night I downgraded with my install disks back to Snow Leopard thinking my computer would be even snappier. It wasn't - ML is faster. I was also surprised at how dated SL now looked, and how I preferred launchpad, full screen, more gestures, and mission control on ML. I also much preferred Mail on ML. So I'm now back on ML.

However, I think it depends on your computer: I have the latest quad core i5 iMac with 12 GB of Ram. I put ML on a 2009 Macbook (not Pro), and it is a dog. Similarly, ML on the early 2012 Macbook Pro 13 ins with 8Gb of Ram also ran slower than Lion - more beach balls.

So my personal experience is SL on a pre-2011 machine. Lion on a 2011 / early 2012 Macbook Pro. And ML on an iMac or Air. And put extra Ram in.

I think if you can get 8GB Ram and an SSD drive then ML will fly.

 

[147798]

Just read the clean install instructions. I guess my issue is not with loading the OS on the drive -- that's easy -- it's the headaches of rebuilding everything that I'd prefer not to go through. Can I just "restore user from TM backup" and license keys and everything copy over? I used Carbon Copy Cloner years ago, and I remember having to dig out tons of license keys to get apps working again. Not everything on my machine is from the app store. I'll have to ponder this a bit.

----------

I flipped flopped between the two. I have a 2011 Quad i5 iMac with 12GB Ram.

I went SL - Lion - then back to SL - then to Lion again!

Then did a clean install to ML - then back to SL just last night. Then finally back to ML this morning, as an upgrade from SL.!!!

A few things I noticed:

SL was very very fast, Lion slowed my computer down. I had to put 12 GB of Ram in.

When I installed ML the first time, there was a speed bump over Lion, the computer felt snappier.

Last night I downgraded with my install disks back to Snow Leopard thinking my computer would be even snappier. It wasn't - ML is faster. I was also surprised at how dated SL now looked, and how I preferred launchpad, full screen, more gestures, and mission control on ML. I also much preferred Mail on ML. So I'm now back on ML.

However, I think it depends on your computer: I have the latest quad core i5 iMac with 12 GB of Ram. I put ML on a 2009 Macbook (not Pro), and it is a dog. Similarly, ML on the early 2012 Macbook Pro 13 ins with 8Gb of Ram also ran slower than Lion - more beach balls.

So my personal experience is SL on a pre-2011 machine. Lion on a 2011 / early 2012 Macbook Pro. And ML on an iMac or Air. And put extra Ram in.

I think if you can get 8GB Ram and an SSD drive then ML will fly.

Thanks. I appreciate the personal experience input.

Another thing I just thought of -- I could probably, with thunderbolt (which my current machine doesn't have) serve up my large photo database from an external, allowing me to run a smaller SSD internally, though I'd have to have a back-up plan for that drive. I'm assuming I could chain thunderbolt drives, and have the TM drive backup my external photo drive?

 

[glewis]

Just read the clean install instructions. I guess my issue is not with loading the OS on the drive -- that's easy -- it's the headaches of rebuilding everything that I'd prefer not to go through. Can I just "restore user from TM backup" and license keys and everything copy over? I used Carbon Copy Cloner years ago, and I remember having to dig out tons of license keys to get apps working again. Not everything on my machine is from the app store. I'll have to ponder this a bit.

Restoring from a Time Machine backup will pull all your documents, settings and apps over to the new OS. So it will have all the same dock icons and your preferences should all be the same. I have used a Time Machine restore and have not had to re-enter keys for MS Office or any other non-app store apps.

Carbon Copy Cloner won't help so much because that is an absolute identical copy of your hard drive and so will not re-install the OS.

And yeh, big SSD's are mega bucks! I mean if you're in the market for a new computer then getting some new hardware would definitely mean that Mountain Lion would run better.

 

[SpyderBite]

No problems here on a 2012 13" MBP. In fact I got back 13gb of hdd after the upgrade and parallels runs about 20% faster.

 

[Krazy Bill]

I flipped flopped between the two. I have a 2011 Quad i5 iMac with 12GB Ram.

I went SL - Lion - then back to SL - then to Lion again!

Then did a clean install to ML - then back to SL just last night. Then finally back to ML this morning, as an upgrade from SL.!!!

I am dizzy.

Last night I downgraded with my install disks back to Snow Leopard thinking my computer would be even snappier. It wasn't - ML is faster.

What does "snappier" and faster mean? Benchmarks show that SL outperforms Lion. (Not sure about ML but I wouldn't think a dot-zero release would be more optimized than Lion).

I was also surprised at how dated SL now looked, and how I preferred launchpad, full screen, more gestures, and mission control on ML. I also much preferred Mail on ML. So I'm now back on ML.

SL, while dated still looks cool to me with it's jelly bean buttons and scroll bars.

Things that keep me on SL:

Spaces: This horse has been beat to a pulp but it goes without saying the lack of this productive "feature" is probably why 95% of us stay on 10.6.8. Newbies to OSX just don't know what they're missing.

Full Expose': By "full" I mean the whole 13" display on my MBP exposes all my windows. No silly-assed redundant desktop icon wasting screen space up top when I have no other desktops in use. Expose' in SL also shows minimized window thumbnails all in the same screen space (at the bottom of your active windows).

Keyboard selection of windows is allowed in the above 2 apps.

Save/Save As: This intuitive document management scheme has worked for decades and can't be improved on (Admit it Apple).

BetterTouchTool: Not SL specific but with it I can mimic most any gesture the "Lions" do and then some.

Front Row (with a transparent plugin called MiRow, it plays damn near anything from anywhere including my DVD media archives).

More Battery life: I get maybe 45 minutes to an extra hour using the same configuration as Lion/ML.

Not a biggie but the Window buttons are larger (the Traffic Lights). You can actually hit what you're aiming for.

No multi-gigabyte Software updates.

I do have a list of things I miss, mainly iCloud but I have an exchange account and dropbox so don't really need it.

I think if you can get 8GB Ram and an SSD drive then ML will fly.

ML Boot time for me with the above... 17 seconds.
Snow Leopard... 11 seconds. (Plus, faster shutdown).

Admittedly, and this is important... one reason I'm on Snow Leopard is out of protest - not that Apple cares but it makes me feel better. Are my days numbered? You bet. I'll wait to see what 10.9 brings next July.

Until then, OSX Snow Leopard just makes sense to me.

 

[SHiFT.]

2008 Macbook Pro.

I have a 2008 uMBP. It has 8GB of ram and a 120gb SSD with ML installed and it works like a dream. Its not slow everything loads fast. I mostly use my macbook for photography and programming and have no complaints here.

P.S. I did a fresh install. I did a upgrade from Lion but was not happy. Just from personal experience a fresh install is always better.

Thanks
SHiFT.

 

[147798]

I have a 2008 uMBP. It has 8GB of ram and a 120gb SSD with ML installed and it works like a dream. Its not slow everything loads fast. I mostly use my macbook for photography and programming and have no complaints here.

P.S. I did a fresh install. I did a upgrade from Lion but was not happy. Just from personal experience a fresh install is always better.

Thanks
SHiFT.

Thanks for the feedback. Do your cooling fans spinning up a bit too much?

 

[bobc99]

You aren't alone

I went back to Snow Leopard from Lion last month: wish I'd done it months ago. Better performance, extra HD space, the return of "Save As" and Rosetta, iCal and Contacts with no silly skeuomorphism . . . the list of benefits is vast, while the list of losses is tiny (the more recent version of Image Capture is about it for me).

Mountain Lion seems to offer yet more things I don't want and nothing I really need. I wonder how many thousands of us there are, and how many thousands more are tempted to go in the same direction? Of course Apple and its vast industry of hangers-on don't want this subject talked about: we're all expected to march in step with their ideas of progress.

Well, as the Hollywood exec used to say, include me out.

 

[jabalczar]

I am dizzy.

What does "snappier" and faster mean? Benchmarks show that SL outperforms Lion. (Not sure about ML but I wouldn't think a dot-zero release would be more optimized than Lion).


Things that keep me on SL:

Spaces: This horse has been beat to a pulp but it goes without saying the lack of this productive "feature" is probably why 95% of us stay on 10.6.8. Newbies to OSX just don't know what they're missing.

Full Expose': By "full" I mean the whole 13" display on my MBP exposes all my windows. No silly-assed redundant desktop icon wasting screen space up top when I have no other desktops in use. Expose' in SL also shows minimized window thumbnails all in the same screen space (at the bottom of your active windows).

Keyboard selection of windows is allowed in the above 2 apps.

Save/Save As: This intuitive document management scheme has worked for decades and can't be improved on (Admit it Apple).

BetterTouchTool: Not SL specific but with it I can mimic most any gesture the "Lions" do and then some.

Front Row (with a transparent plugin called MiRow, it plays damn near anything from anywhere including my DVD media archives).

More Battery life: I get maybe 45 minutes to an extra hour using the same configuration as Lion/ML.

Not a biggie but the Window buttons are larger (the Traffic Lights). You can actually hit what you're aiming for.

No multi-gigabyte Software updates.

I do have a list of things I miss, mainly iCloud but I have an exchange account and dropbox so don't really need it.



ML Boot time for me with the above... 17 seconds.
Snow Leopard... 11 seconds. (Plus, faster shutdown).

Admittedly, and this is important... one reason I'm on Snow Leopard is out of protest - not that Apple cares but it makes me feel better. Are my days numbered? You bet. I'll wait to see what 10.9 brings next July.

Until then, OSX Snow Leopard just makes sense to me.

I guess some personal choice comes into it, and current working habits. I never liked Spaces (not a Mac Newbie either -- since OS 8). I personally find full screen on Lion, ML much more productive. And couple Apps in Full Screen with the 'redundant' desktops on Mission control, works well for me at least.

Boot up, I seldom do. But, yes, SL is faster.

As for snappiness, my definition is simply how my computer works for me, despite the benchmarks. Others may have different mileage. But applications open faster on ML (for me), and gestures, swipes etc mean I can be more productive, and faster than on SL.

Also, preferring Autosave, duplicate, and versions (no Autosave on Pages on SL - in fact no Pages on SL now!), I like Recovery, add that all to Time Machine, and my data and applications are pretty secure.

Battery life, I can't really argue with, as I'm mainly using my iMac.

But all in all the operating system for my workflow (including mission control, launchpad, and autosave) is stable, fast and more productive than SL.

I did want to go back to SL -- I take your point -- and have a purer non iOS system. Though I would prefer it, but I think Lion and ML have changed my way of doing things without me realising.

 

[SHiFT.]

Fans

Thanks for the feedback. Do you fan your cooling fans spinning up a bit too much?

when I am using lightroom 4 - No
when I am compiling a program
Small java program - No
A bigger java or objective C - Yes!

For most tasks i can honestly say that the fans don't kick in that much. I was thinking they would've but i have been very pleased with the performance.

Hope this help
SHiFT.

 

[Krazy Bill]

I did want to go back to SL -- I take your point -- and have a purer non iOS system. Though I would prefer it, but I think Lion and ML have changed my way of doing things without me realising.

Wish I had your attitude about this.

My only hope lies in the fact that Apple "restored" full window Expose' in 10.8. Also... an attempt to reintroduce Save As (albeit flaky) tells me somebody there is tired of people like me whining.

I fully expect them to follow the same iOS path but am hoping 10.9 brings forth more of these legacy options.

 

[50548]

Restoring from a Time Machine backup will pull all your documents, settings and apps over to the new OS. So it will have all the same dock icons and your preferences should all be the same. I have used a Time Machine restore and have not had to re-enter keys for MS Office or any other non-app store apps.

Carbon Copy Cloner won't help so much because that is an absolute identical copy of your hard drive and so will not re-install the OS.

And yeh, big SSD's are mega bucks! I mean if you're in the market for a new computer then getting some new hardware would definitely mean that Mountain Lion would run better.

Problem is: for custom setups like mine TM doesn't really work because, as far as I can remember, it only restores to the boot volume (which in my case has very limited SSD space).

So how to import again your settings and home folder if what you want is for them to be in the secondary HDD? Not an easy nut to crack in five minutes.

 

[147798]

Problem is: for custom setups like mine TM doesn't really work because, as far as I can remember, it only restores to the boot volume (which in my case has very limited SSD space).

I thought you can back up more than one drive with TM, in which case I was expecting TM would restore the drives to the proper places?

 

[Zerozal]

Just a note to let you know that LR4 itself runs much slower than LR3, regardless of the underlying OS. So, at least in the case of Lightroom, it's not Mountain Lion's fault. You can read a lot of complaints regarding LR's speed (or lack thereof) here:
LR4 speed totally unacceptable

LR4.1 seems to have improved things, but I find that it's still slower than LR3 on my machine.

 

[Menneisyys2]

As others have recommended, a fresh install may fix the issue.

A 2.8 GHz c2d (17" late 2009 MBP) is here with 8GB RAM and a Vertex 4 256GG SSD (+ 1 TB HDD for media). Lighting fast. (Of course I too made a fresh install. No upgrades for me.)

 

[147798]

well, I was going to try the fresh install approach, but now I've hit the Mountain Lion time machine issue, so I can't back up. See https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4145494?start=90&tstart=0

 

[Badrottie]

Thanks for the feedback. Do your cooling fans spinning up a bit too much?

I have 2007 MBP I ran Lion 10.7.4 the fans spin under 2000 rpm then upgraded to ML 10.8 (not clean install) the fans spin still the same under 2000 rpm.

 

[147798]

Update (for continuity purposes)

I was unable to back up to TM, havaing the same issues as in the link I posted above. I ran some suggested scripts. No help. Then I killed iCloud, and TM cleared right up. I am going to play today with the mac, and see if killing iCloud solved any of my other issues. If its still slow and hot, I'll do a clean install of ML, and update the thread to help anyone else who might have the same issues.