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alectrona6400

macrumors regular
Original poster
Mar 1, 2019
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i can see why everything feels so slow on those processors now, and nothing is really fast on them anymore.
i even OCed my eMac to 1.5ghz and it still feels so slow
so here's my question: is the g4 just straight up obsolete?
 

Dronecatcher

macrumors 603
Jun 17, 2014
5,249
7,887
Lincolnshire, UK
i can see why everything feels so slow on those processors now, and nothing is really fast on them anymore.
i even OCed my eMac to 1.5ghz and it still feels so slow
so here's my question: is the g4 just straight up obsolete?

Depends what you're doing.
Web browsing is slow but still possible - and currently my PPC browsers are more compatible than what's on offer for Snow Leopard - if you're doing creative stuff (music/audio) there's plenty of power for using period software.
 

pl1984

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Oct 31, 2017
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I wouldn't use a G4 based system for browsing the Internet but for its contemporary software it should be fine.
 

1042686

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2016
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For a secure experience & modern uses in a reasonable time that doesn’t raise your blood pressure? Yeah, I think so.

They do have varied uses outside of the above assumed definition tho. I use one as a file server, another as a car/truck schematic repository, another (until it died) as a writing/composition machine & a imacG3 as a edutainment machine for my toddler to pound on (the no internet aspect is preferred here).

And that’s not to say that they won’t technically surf & play video etc. because they absolutely do but they do it slowly & with quirky round about ways of making it happen. That and who knows how long initiatives like TFF, 1WB & AF will be around.

Linux? I guess as I know a few folks here fight with - er I mean use it but I haven’t seen a supported & easy to install/use out of the box G3/4/5PPC distro, so again not much faith there either.

I think they’re cool and uses vary outside of modern uses/expectations but to your point PPC G4’s sun as a daily is setting quickly IMO.
 
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timidpimpin

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It's certainly not a black and white issue. There is more to it than yes or no.

For daily internet use you could certainly get by with a G4 running TenFourFox or something similar... but it wouldn't be a good experience for anyone in a hurry. The modern internet really taxes systems that are around 15 to 20 years old. No matter the hardware inside.

For things like document creation and graphic design a G4 can still be very capable. Especially when you run software from the era the machine was current.

I would say it comes down to whether or not you're the kind of person that can deal with a lot of workarounds on your computer. Like all the threads here dedicated to getting around the modern limitations of PowerPC hardware. If you're not willing to put in the time and effort for all those workarounds, then the G4 would be dead to you so to speak.

You also need a stay in the fight type of spirit along with a general love for this old hardware.
 
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filmbuff

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
968
364
I find my G4 iBook and Powerbook to be “barely passable” for web browsing. Noscript is the only reason that’s possible. With YewTube I can watch youtube videos without slowing it down even if I have to deal with a small player window. I currently brought my iBook on a 4 day trip with me to see if I can get by with it and I find myself reverting to my phone a lot.
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
You also need a stay in the fight type of spirit along with a general love for this old hardware.

It's the same case with PPCL. You need a certain type of user that just fits this criteria, and it so happens that they are unfortunately just not in the majority. Most people are happy paying for new rigs once theirs hits the 4-5 year mark, like they're playing into some kind of routine consumerist rotation.

Technological resourcefulness is a user quality that goes beyond PowerPC. Just look at all the "Is it still useful?" videos floating around...
 
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filmbuff

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
968
364
Technological resourcefulness is a user quality that goes beyond PowerPC. Just look at all the "Is it still useful?" videos floating around...

I think the popularity of those videos shows how many people are still interested in old tech. Maybe most aren’t going to go out and buy a PPC and force them self to use it, but there is interest. It’s also a good time capsule to see how much stuff has changed.
 

pl1984

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I use a G4 to browse the net all the time.

There's a stickied thread about T4Fx tweaks at the top of this forum that lets me do that ;)
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying I won't want to do it at least for anything other than when I decide to play with my older systems. When much faster systems can be had for the same or, in some cases, less money I would rather go that route for my day to day browsing.

It's a shame that the web has become so bloated that such systems are slowed to a crawl when browsing the web.
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
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It's a shame that the web has become so bloated that such systems are slowed to a crawl when browsing the web.

I think negligence to slim down and optimize on the web developer's part is to blame here.

I'm actually surprised nobody is trying to get all their websites and webpages as low footprint and resource friendly as possible. It should at the very least significantly cut down on file size for the web servers to store, but maybe that's not such an incentive anymore in an age where 1TB+ storage can be easily had for $20 to $40.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
29,659
28,433
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying I won't want to do it at least for anything other than when I decide to play with my older systems. When much faster systems can be had for the same or, in some cases, less money I would rather go that route for my day to day browsing.

It's a shame that the web has become so bloated that such systems are slowed to a crawl when browsing the web.
I get your point.

However, either I'm more patient than other people or incapable of judging time.

The browser on my G4 with 2GB ram is only slightly slower than that of my Quad G5 with 16GB ram. And I don't mean by seconds, less than that.

And my G5 browses just as fast as the MBP I am typing this on browses in Chrome.

I've spent a lot of time and frustration trying to get it this way. And I will grant that there are a handful of sites I just cannot do on my G4 or G5, but for the most part I don't have any problems.

I'm not trying to convince you or blow smoke. I'm just saying that I browse for real on my PowerPC Macs.

As to the bloating of the web, I agree. But that's what uMatrix is for and No Script for those partial to that.
[doublepost=1551824436][/doublepost]
I think negligence to slim down and optimize on the web developer's part is to blame here.

I'm actually surprised nobody is trying to get all their websites and webpages as low footprint and resource friendly as possible. It should at the very least significantly cut down on file size for the web servers to store, but maybe that's not such an incentive anymore in an age where 1TB+ storage can be easily had for $20 to $40.
You hit on it. There is no incentive. Bad code is irrelevant when a modern CPU and GPU can chew right through it and when bandwidth isn't limited. As to storage, yeah that too.

Writing good code stopped being any sort of a thing a long time ago. Maybe it's still taught in some places but all anyone cares about (that is paying you to write code) is that your code does what they want it to do.
 

pl1984

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Oct 31, 2017
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I think negligence to slim down and optimize on the web developer's part is to blame here.

I'm actually surprised nobody is trying to get all their websites and webpages as low footprint and resource friendly as possible. It should at the very least significantly cut down on file size for the web servers to store, but maybe that's not such an incentive anymore in an age where 1TB+ storage can be easily had for $20 to $40.
Agreed. In the early days of computing it was the computer which cost the most while labor was, relatively speaking, cheap. Today it's done a 180.

Though I wonder how much faster the web would be without the myriad of advertising.
[doublepost=1551826484][/doublepost]
You hit on it. There is no incentive. Bad code is irrelevant when a modern CPU and GPU can chew right through it and when bandwidth isn't limited. As to storage, yeah that too.
I wish web developers would drop this mentality. There are a lot of places where bandwidth is restricted. There are a lot of rural areas which don't have the high Internet speeds found in populated areas.
 
I think negligence to slim down and optimize on the web developer's part is to blame here.

I'm actually surprised nobody is trying to get all their websites and webpages as low footprint and resource friendly as possible. It should at the very least significantly cut down on file size for the web servers to store, but maybe that's not such an incentive anymore in an age where 1TB+ storage can be easily had for $20 to $40.

This has a great deal to do with the move toward accommodating touchpad-friendly UIs (user interfaces) which depend much more on a responsive (i.e., adjusting in real-time the page elements as a window gets resized) UX (user experience). This requires a hefty bit of actual code outside what one actually sees on the front-end. I look, for instance, at how TFF's home web site (using this example as one probably familiar to many of you) has moved toward this format with the intent of a contemporary CLF (common look & feel), but it does take a toll on browsing said page on a TFF for G3 build I use, even with @eyoungren's extremely handy adjustments.

Further, many of the in-page interactive functionalities on sites nowadays rely deeply on running jquery and other client-side scripts which in the past relied on the server's end, rather than the client (viewer) end. [This also includes the perniciousness of site trackers.] Some of the slow-down pertains to more rigorous security protocols, but this doesn't necessarily slow a browser to a near-standstill — even one like TFF with current security patches.

Then, tack on another layer of code for IP-insistent DRM control over user-rich content (i.e., video and audio) — much like how YT have made browsers run through many more hoops to reach the HTML5 video content of every page (just watch uMatrix sometime and watch how it all spools up a bunch of generated subdomains under googlevideo-dot-com). This is why the music video for a song I watched on my key lime clamshell in 2011 (see attached) — the exact same clip still up in 2019 — worked magnificently in 240p then (and fine for the then 800x600 screen), whereas now it's basically impossible.

2011
Picture 1.png Picture 2.png


2019
Picture 4.png

With, however, the help of @wicknix's brilliant YewTubePPC, all the overhead is cut away to reveal, once more:

Picture 5.png Picture 8.png



And lastly, there's a mess of overhead relating to a site's SEO (search engine optimization), which I conjecture has its own deleterious impact on using the web generally and is inextricably and heavily tied to commoditizing and monetizing every last shard of the internet in the worst possible way.

So in short, an older hardware setup is going to be hamstrung by many of these elements prevalent in a current web site
 

1042686

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2016
1,575
2,326
You guys are way more patient /stubborn than most users. That drive to build apps, tweak software & map out left & right workarounds bringing functionality to old abandoned hardware & OS speaks to that vividly which is not what most end users go for.

I can tell you that my wife cannot stand old tech as it rarely works as she expects & its slow comparatively. Time is precious currency, so in her eyes wasting time spinning wheels trying to get old stuff to work is costing her money.

So while I am amused by these old boxes & what we squeeze out of them, she is not - at all. I think this is the mentality of most endusers.
 
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eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
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You guys are way more patient /stubborn than most users. That drive to build apps, tweak software & map out left & right workarounds bringing functionality to old abandoned hardware & OS speaks to that vividly which is not what most end users go for.

I can tell you that my wife cannot stand old tech as it rarely work as she expects & its slow comparatively. Time is precious currency, so in her eyes wasting time spinning wheels trying to get old stuff to work is costing her money.

So while I am amused by these old boxes & what we squeeze out of them, she is not - at all. I think this is the mentality of most endusers.
Absolutely. It's why we are such a small segment of this forum. And also why most new Macs and iThings are throwaway stuff after 3-5 years (for the average user).
 
Absolutely. It's why we are such a small segment of this forum. And also why most new Macs and iThings are throwaway stuff after 3-5 years (for the average user).
You guys are way more patient /stubborn than most users. That drive to build apps, tweak software & map out left & right workarounds bringing functionality to old abandoned hardware & OS speaks to that vividly which is not what most end users go for.

I can tell you that my wife cannot stand old tech as it rarely works as she expects & its slow comparatively. Time is precious currency, so in her eyes wasting time spinning wheels trying to get old stuff to work is costing her money.

So while I am amused by these old boxes & what we squeeze out of them, she is not - at all. I think this is the mentality of most endusers.

The takeaway here was we are subject to the internet which we are given — overwhelmingly so by parties devoted principally to monetize it for their gain at the illusion of our own convenience (which at times may actually be convenient, whilst at other times, not so much).

This is done at our expense, the data generators (literally, the product they sell), as hardware which cannot keep up with their code updates (i.e., software bloat) begins to bog down.

Nah, we didn't need this iteration of an internet, but this is the internet we have come to deserve. Hardware manufacturers will be there to deliver new, spendy hardware purpose-built to be more readily disposable as this internet continues this direction.
 

timidpimpin

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For anyone interested in getting the most out of their G4, or really any PowerPC computer... I would find inspiration in how users here do things. I have been beyond impressed with the current users around here, and their sheer dedication to the craft of PowerPC user-ship.

The PowerPC ship may not be the fastest one... but it will always get you where you want to go. :)
 

1042686

Cancelled
Sep 3, 2016
1,575
2,326
The takeaway here was we are subject to the internet which we are given — overwhelmingly so by parties devoted principally to monetize it for their gain at the illusion of our own convenience (which at times may actually be convenient, whilst at other times, not so much).

This is done at our expense, the data generators (literally, the product they sell), as hardware which cannot keep up with their code updates (i.e., software bloat) begins to bog down.

Nah, we didn't need this iteration of an internet, but this is the internet we have come to deserve. Hardware manufacturers will be there to deliver new, spendy hardware purpose-built to be more readily disposable as this internet continues this direction.

As far as I can remember, this is how it’s always been though. From my first Atari consoles & computers in the early to mid 80s etc. to my first web capable PCs in the mid 90s, hardware dev pushes software dev & vice versa ultimately reacting to customer desire-need & growing a market with ever newer, faster, more powerful & capable systems.

Monetizing the Internet with goods & services was only a matter of time and that as the current hammer for creating small, thin, in the palm of your hand, always connected & accessible (and most importantly CHEAP) computer devices to fasciitate this new revenue stream is the game. Maintaining economic Growth (wherever it occurs) drives innovation. Conversely, accepting that X is enough” starves innovative thought which is the economic death knoll of any market.

It’s an Interesting time to be living, that is for sure.
 
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z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
For anyone interested in getting the most out of their G4, or really any PowerPC computer... I would find inspiration in how users here do things. I have been beyond impressed with the current users around here, and their sheer dedication to the craft of PowerPC user-ship.

The PowerPC ship may not be the fastest one... but it will always get you where you want to go. :)

Couldn't agree more.

This is done at our expense, the data generators (literally, the product they sell), as hardware which cannot keep up with their code updates (i.e., software bloat) begins to bog down.

Well, that's why we have Links2.

Screenshot from 2019-03-05 23-32-13.png Screenshot from 2019-03-05 23-34-09.png

Just like that, no more bloat. :D

Like using a time portal to browse the Web in 2000...

Screenshot from 2019-03-05 23-50-14.png Screenshot from 2019-03-05 23-53-56.png

(And if you couple that with Window Maker ((NeXTSTEP clone)), it's like browsing the 90's.)
 
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As far as I can remember, this is how it’s always been though. From my first Atari consoles & computers in the early to mid 80s etc. to my first web capable PCs in the mid 90s, hardware dev pushes software dev & vice versa ultimately reacting to customer desire-need & growing a market with ever newer, faster, more powerful & capable systems.

This is a deeper, probably thought-provoking conversation for another sub-forum (which is not at all a dismissal for having that conversation).

But how designers of systems are producing those systems presently is no longer a principal function of "how do we make everything quicker and more efficient which the latest reductions that Moore's Law can afford us right now," and more a function of "how do we design this to implore always-on use, always-on appliance co-dependency, and involuntarily sending back that use-data as a compulsory foundation beyond the reach of the user who generated it?"

I recall Steve Jobs envisioning the hand-held computing of the iPhone and iPad in a very different manner than how that mode of computing became what it has throughout this decade — as de facto surveillance instruments.

I'm mindful how there is a steady but repeatable pattern of tech industry principals curtailing or altogether forbidding handheld internet access for their kids.

I'm mindful how we didn't ask for a Web 2.0 in 2002 (who remembers Friendster?) to feed our personal data to then-embryonic or nonexistent companies — which now are large enough in 2019 that antitrust talks are being brought forward by regulators and lawmakers.

Yet an insistence on "needing" a Web 2.0 (or even an IoT-oriented Web 3.0), in which user-generated content renders the user as the product, was fuelled by a vision for a future promise of largesse confined to a handful of well-placed orchestrators (which opens another sub-topic on social structures and barriers, but for another time), at the direct expense and labour of virtually everyone else.

This has left us with fairly costly, yet increasingly disaposable tech [sidebar: it's worth considering the amortized costs in being unable to upgrade versus replace] — just as we're struggling to sequester enough carbon to mitigate a sixth extinction event already underway by our very hands.

Not sure, but I think that covers most of the bases… oh, wait, I forgot one more: the drive to consume hardware and a healthy chunk of non-renewable energy for… oh right, generating electric money. Much as with Web 2.0, cryptocurrency principals share one vision in common: personal largesse at the expense of all others and all else.

These are the literal antithesis of a steady equilibrium for a sustainable commonwealth.

Monetizing the Internet with goods & services was only a matter of time and that as the current hammer for creating small, thin, in the palm of your hand, always connected & accessible (and most importantly CHEAP) computer devices to fasciitate this new revenue stream is the game.

The unrestricted monetizing of the internet arose from a paucity of public oversight and regulation, and the oversight which does come to pass often (though not always — yet another discussion topic for another place and time) arrives just a step too late.

Yes, being able to buy things on the internet is as old as the internet itself (usenet was once that go-to place), but it was not designed by and for commerce over the efficient and truly open exchange of knowledge labour — sans nation-state firewalls, paywalls, and other content barriers we've ginned up to enrich a select few folks.

I admire your faith in always-on appliances. As many folks clamour for remote control over their IoT appliances, I'm trying to find builds for my phone which strip out all the OEM code froom Google, FB, and others so that this small, thin, delicate, and, yes, expensive device (which doesn't have any replaceable parts) functions as I want it to for my needs. When it fails (and it will), I know I'll wince — much as I winced in 2011, 2013, 2014, and 2017 — to replace it with another spendy handheld I neither want nor really asked for. I miss buttons.


Maintaining economic Growth is life.

For under-regulated and unregulated capitalism, positively.

Conversely, Saying “this is enough” is engineered stagnation & that is the economic death knoll.

And, rhetorically speaking, an economic death knell for unsustainable expansion* is bad how and for whom, precisely?

Anyhow, there remains tremendous utility and just enough interchangeability in the legacy tech we already have all around us, even if it's shoved into a basement or closet. And that, plus my very limited income, is why I continue to use legacy tech like PowerPC hardware for a lot of my work: because it is available reasonably cheaply, it diverts from landfill for extended use-value, and it still gets the job done for a lot of user-generated creation.

* reserving use of "growth" to living things which we as humanity had no hand in creating
[doublepost=1551848675][/doublepost]
Couldn't agree more.

Well, that's why we have Links2.

Just like that, no more bloat. :D

This is awesome. Seriously. Sharing knowledge and information without obfuscation. :D
 

z970

macrumors 68040
Jun 2, 2017
3,589
4,543
This is awesome. Seriously. Sharing knowledge and information without obfuscation. :D

In my experiences, occurrences like that are one of the places where the PowerPC subforum and its collective knowledge bases really shine, and come into most use to effectively polish older hardware.

I'm very glad I may have been able to help further that. :)
 
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amedias

macrumors 6502
Feb 9, 2008
263
289
Devon, UK
Another point to note on the whole 'everything is bloated now' theme is that a lot of sites and software is being produced now by a generation of people who have not really experienced a time when devices were genuinely slow.

Half the devs in our company were born after the internet had made it into our homes, they have never known a world without it, they have never known sub multimegabit connectivity, they have never known literally running out of ram on their device, they have never known a time when you had to be super efficient and creative with your code just to get it to work, let alone work quickly.

So on the one hand it's valid thing to complain about people writing bloated software, but then you have to also take into account that they've grown up in a world where the quickest and often cheapest way to solve a performance problem is to 'throw hardware at it', so is it any wonder they develop with that in mind? And can you blame them really?

I'm reminded of an issue one of our customers had with a fairly big system deployment a few years back.... the customer in question was having some problems with a reporting function on their platform, it was quite a heavy job that ran multiple times per day and influenced some near real-time pricing adjustments on their platform.

The issue was 'solved' by adding an additional 32 cores (remember this was ~ 5 years ago) and an additional 192GB of Ram to both the main and secondary environments.

That solution was chosen because the cost of that additional hardware was less than the money they were losing every 48 hours due to the jobs running slow, and considerably less than the dev time they had already invested trying to troubleshoot the issue with the code.

And here's me, a guy who works on these kind of environments every day, running some piddly (but optimised) Gx machines at home for actual useful things (as well as a lot of modern beefy hardware too!).

Modern hardware is great, old hardware is also great, just for different things!
 

dandeco

macrumors 65816
Dec 5, 2008
1,254
1,052
Brockton, MA
Heck, Apple considers the Intel Core Duo processors (32-bit, before Core 2 Duo) obsolete, let alone the G4s!
I still have a PowerMac G4 QuickSilver in my room I like to toy around with for fun; it has an 867 MHz G4 processor, 1 GB of RAM and two internal hard drives (120 GB and 80 GB, respectively); it runs Mac OS 9.2.2 and OS X 10.4.11. It's a fun blast from the past; on Mac OS 9 I can even browse the Internet (mostly macintoshrepository.org for finding compatible software) and capture/edit DV footage on iMovie 2! (On Mac OS X 10.4.11 on the G4, I use iMovie HD 6, and editing speed is pretty quick but rendering takes longer.)
Otherwise though I use my late 2012 quad-core i7 Mac Mini and my Dell Optiplex 9010 for most computing purposes.
 

pl1984

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Another point to note on the whole 'everything is bloated now' theme is that a lot of sites and software is being produced now by a generation of people who have not really experienced a time when devices were genuinely slow.

Half the devs in our company were born after the internet had made it into our homes, they have never known a world without it, they have never known sub multimegabit connectivity, they have never known literally running out of ram on their device, they have never known a time when you had to be super efficient and creative with your code just to get it to work, let alone work quickly.

So on the one hand it's valid thing to complain about people writing bloated software, but then you have to also take into account that they've grown up in a world where the quickest and often cheapest way to solve a performance problem is to 'throw hardware at it', so is it any wonder they develop with that in mind? And can you blame them really?

I'm reminded of an issue one of our customers had with a fairly big system deployment a few years back.... the customer in question was having some problems with a reporting function on their platform, it was quite a heavy job that ran multiple times per day and influenced some near real-time pricing adjustments on their platform.

The issue was 'solved' by adding an additional 32 cores (remember this was ~ 5 years ago) and an additional 192GB of Ram to both the main and secondary environments.

That solution was chosen because the cost of that additional hardware was less than the money they were losing every 48 hours due to the jobs running slow, and considerably less than the dev time they had already invested trying to troubleshoot the issue with the code.

And here's me, a guy who works on these kind of environments every day, running some piddly (but optimised) Gx machines at home for actual useful things (as well as a lot of modern beefy hardware too!).

Modern hardware is great, old hardware is also great, just for different things!
While I understand that it can be quicker and easier to throw hardware at a problem I also feel that developers should be taught to write compact and efficient code.

Recently I've been playing with my Apple II systems and I am amazed at what developers were able to do with a 1MHz system with 128KB of RAM. That useable programs could be squeezed into such constraints. Granted they're not as full featured as today's programs but they did quite a lot given the constraints.

I'm not advocating for a return for those days but it might be a good idea for developers to learn / develop on less capable systems. Perhaps doing so would cause developers to think more about writing compact and efficient code. Instead developers tend to have very capable systems utilizing the fastest processors, disk systems, memory, GPU, etc. I doubt this will ever happen as the way it is is too engrained to change.
 
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