Apple Music Lossless over Bluetooth? Why do people 'expect' this?

[fluxtransistor]

I think that not enough people understand what lossless audio is.

It's not some sort of magic technology that unlocks a hidden layer in your music. It just keeps tiny, inaudible details from the original recording in—mostly noise. At the cost of several times higher bandwidth.

See for yourself if you can hear the difference between ALAC and AAC: ABX test. I certainly can't!

I'm not trying to elevate myself above others in any way, just sharing my experience. Even with young ears, a hearing range slightly over 20kHz, a quiet room, a good DAC and headphones, I can't tell. Now consider the internal DAC and power supply of Bluetooth headphones, coupled with the fact that headphones are often used on the go.


And, sure, Apple could have included some fancy Wi-Fi audio tech in their gear to carry lossless audio, but why?

Anyone who is serious about Hi-Fi music won't be using wireless technology of any kind, they'll have a DAC. For the others, it's just a marketing gimmick for people to moan about when it really doesn't make a difference.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I don't expect it, I'm just mad that Apple removed the headphone jack claiming that wireless audio was the future, and is now telling everyone to buy a headphone jack adapter to get the best quality in Apple’s own music service.

Maybe they should have, y'know, kept the headphone jack.

I hate adapters.

 

[bsamcash]

Wider sound stage and instrument separation. Essential for orchestral music.

 

[rumz]

Oh I think people are just hoping that if Apple releases a new "feature" for music that their Apple-branded implements would be able to take advantage of it.

To be fair, the AirPods Max are in a sort of odd place. Many find them to not be ideal for more portable use (weight, packability) and so they seem better suited to "around the home" where you're more likely to do some critical listening... but they're still bluetooth headphones. Honestly, if fidelity was my absolute priority (and I do still rip some of my music lossless if it's orchestral / classical), I'd be listening another way.

It would be interesting if Apple released an "all digital" cable that could send the digital signal from an iOS or iPadOS device to the lightning input on the AirPods Max.

 

[fluxtransistor]

I hate dongles as well—partly why I still have a 6S+. But even with wired transport, the quality of the DAC impacts sound much much more than the jump from 256 to lossless.

So my point is that this feature is primarily aimed at those with a robust Mac DAC at home, a solid audio setup, or an external soundcard for the iPhone.

Not just the fingernail-sized chip on an iPhone or dongle, which will gladly consume any lossless 'clarity' you throw at it.

 

[bsamcash]

It would be interesting if Apple released an "all digital" cable that could send the digital signal from an iOS or iPadOS device to the lightning input on the AirPods Max.

I wonder if Apple could allow lossless over the USB C to Lightning cable.

 

[rumz]

I wonder if Apple could allow lossless over the USB C to Lightning cable.

Good point. The cable wouldn't need a DAC like some of their other adapters / cables.... since it's just data.

 

[fwmireault]

I don’t expect lossless music over Bluetooth. People who believe that don’t know the limitations of that technology. I’m more disappointed for the AirPods Max, that doesn’t even work with the lightning cable. This APM was released less than six months ago, there’s no chance that Apple was not developing lossless integration in Apple Music at the time. It’s a surprise move by Apple regarding APM, because the company is known for deep integration between hardware, software and services. I get that is a niche feature, but it is still odd.

APM aside, I find it strange that Apple offers no first party option to listen to this lossless/hi-fi music. Is it a dealbreaker for me? No, i’m not an audiophile and couldn’t probably tell the difference anyway. But if the whole line up is not compatible, it’s a very very niche feature

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I hate dongles as well—partly why I still have a 6S+. But even with wired transport, the quality of the DAC impacts sound much much more than the jump from 256 to lossless.

So my point is that this feature is primarily aimed at those with a robust Mac DAC at home, a solid audio setup, or an external soundcard for the iPhone.

Not just the fingernail-sized chip on an iPhone or dongle, which will gladly consume any lossless 'clarity' you throw at it.

I'm no audiophile, but the people who actually measure this stuff seemed to think the iPhone 6S's DAC was excellent.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/iphone-6s-plus-audio-quality.htm

As expected, the analog audio output of the iPhone 6S Plus is extraordinarily good. It has only half the distortion of the already extraordinary iPhone 6 Plus.

Apple has more smart people and more resources than any other audio company on the planet, so as we see when it comes to audio engineering, the iPhone easily outdoes many so-called "audiophile" products.

For enjoying music, you will probably get poorer performance if you waste your time and money with outboard DACs or headphone amplifiers; the iPhone already has the best there is.

Why do commercial audio magazines tout external DACs and amplifiers? Because that what their advertisers are trying to sell!

The only reason to get an outboard headphone amplifier for use with your iPhone 6S Plus is if you have high-impedance (100Ω or greater) headphones like the 600 Ω beyerdynamic DT880 which often require more voltage than the 1V RMS maximum from iOS devices. In this case, you still don't need a DAC; the analog output from the iPhone's 3.5mm jack will probably be better than what you'd get from an expensive outboard DAC!

 

[Xak444]

I don't expect it, I'm just mad that Apple removed the headphone jack because they claimed that wireless audio was the future, and is now telling everyone they need to buy a headphone jack adapter to get the best quality on their own music service.

Maybe they should have, y'know, kept the headphone jack.

I hate adapters.

That’s not what they’re saying either. You won’t get the best quality with their headphones wired either

 

[Xak444]

I think that not enough people understand what lossless audio is.

It's not some sort of magic technology that unlocks a hidden layer in your music. It just keeps tiny, inaudible details from the original recording in—mostly noise. At the cost of several times higher bandwidth.

See for yourself if you can hear the difference between ALAC and AAC: ABX test. I certainly can't!

I'm not trying to elevate myself above others in any way, just sharing my experience. Even with young ears, a hearing range slightly over 20kHz, a quiet room, a good DAC and headphones, I can't tell. Now consider the internal DAC and power supply of Bluetooth headphones, coupled with the fact that headphones are often used on the go.


And, sure, Apple could have included some fancy Wi-Fi audio tech in their gear to carry lossless audio, but why?

Anyone who is serious about Hi-Fi music won't be using wireless technology of any kind, they'll have a DAC. For the others, it's just a marketing gimmick for people to moan about when it really doesn't make a difference.

I was more confused because I was under the impression the HomePod and AirPods max would be able to get the lower hi-fi audio at least. I understand the AirPods can’t do it over Bluetooth but I would have figured they’d get it when using lightning.

 

[powerbook911]

Yeah, I don't see lossless happening over bluetooth anytime soon. Obviously, it can happen over wifi.

Folks will hear some benefit with this change anyway. Ask in a Tidal HD or Amazon Music HD forum, people hear the difference over bluetooth as you are starting with an original, perfect file. I'm not even close to being an audiophile, and I keep a sub to Tidal or Amazon HD until now, just to listen over AirPods.

This is probably why Apple didn't have lossless sooner, it confuses people too much.

 

[Shreducator]

Before today I don’t believe the average consumer knew what lossless audio is. My take on it, is that because Apple has announced it people suddenly think this is the new shiny tech and I need it. What we are seeing is people coming to the realization that their AirPod Pros aren’t as high end as they thought. What I’m looking forward to is the demand for DAC’s to increase resulting in more of them on the market.

 

[Royal Gala]

anyone know if Apple Music lossless would work over an airplay 2 compatible device (eg airport express) streaming to a ‘dumb’ hifi set up (amp, speakers)?

 

[matthewadams]

Maybe this lays the groundwork for Bluetooth 5.2 / Bluetooth Audio LE, which I sort of expect in the new Airpods and other Apple HW. It won't be entirely lossless, but it will be a significant uptick from the oldschool Bluetooth audio.

What is LE Audio and LC3, the latest in Bluetooth audio?

For audio enthusiasts, the big story of CES 2020 is clearly Bluetooth SIG announcing a wave of new supported audio technologies as part of LE Audio, including the improved LC3 codec.

www.soundguys.com

 

[powerbook911]

anyone know if Apple Music lossless would work over an airplay 2 compatible device (eg airport express) streaming to a ‘dumb’ hifi set up (amp, speakers)?

Airplay does transmit in Apple's format that is equivalent to CD (even a low quality AAC file gets converted to this format when transmitted). Some Apple Music will be higher quality than the format Airplay uses, but the Airplay quality is still very high, equivalent to a CD.

 

[Colman R]

I'm finding the whole discussion hilarious: I know what lossless is, and I know that in almost all circumstances it'll make no damn difference. The only set-up I have that where it might is the proper mid-range hifi set-up downstairs and even then I have my doubts that I'll really be able to tell the difference - I'm fifty and my upper range is starting to go for a start.

AirPods Max were a worthwhile buy as a really nice set of non-critical listening headphones that work neatly with the Apple devices I have. Compared to all the other headphones I've had they sound really nice, but I want them to isolate me while I'm working or hiding from the chatter of the other ballet parents when I bring the kids to classes (in which case loseless music *really* isn't going to work well, the streaming would choke on the ****** connection) and I don't like in-the-ear for long periods. But they cost 10% or less of the set-up downstairs. They're not high end, but I'm not in the market for high-end headphones.

 

[powerbook911]

I'm finding the whole discussion hilarious: I know what lossless is, and I know that in almost all circumstances it'll make no damn difference. The only set-up I have that where it might is the proper mid-range hifi set-up downstairs and even then I have my doubts that I'll really be able to tell the difference - I'm fifty and my upper range is starting to go for a start.

AirPods Max were a worthwhile buy as a really nice set of non-critical listening headphones that work neatly with the Apple devices I have. Compared to all the other headphones I've had they sound really nice, but I want them to isolate me while I'm working or hiding from the chatter of the other ballet parents when I bring the kids to classes (in which case loseless music *really* isn't going to work well, the streaming would choke on the ****** connection) and I don't like in-the-ear for long periods. But they cost 10% or less of the set-up downstairs. They're not high end, but I'm not in the market for high-end headphones.

You might be surprised and hear the difference when they flip the switch in June. Max are great.

 

[Xak444]

Before today I don’t believe the average consumer knew what lossless audio is. My take on it, is that because Apple has announced it people suddenly think this is the new shiny tech and I need it. What we are seeing is people coming to the realization that their AirPod Pros aren’t as high end as they thought. What I’m looking forward to is the demand for DAC’s to increase resulting in more of them on the market.

I don’t think most see lossless as new shiny tech I think most people see AirPods Max and Hompod as shiny new tech that doesn’t work with something old like lossless. Further it’s a bit confusing that Apple would drop an expensive new overear headset that cost $600 and not make it compatible with old tech like lossless at least over a digital cable connection.

 

[Shreducator]

I don’t think most see lossless as new shiny tech I think most people see AirPods Max and Hompod as shiny new tech that doesn’t work with something old like lossless. Further it’s a bit confusing that Apple would drop an expensive new overear headset that cost $600 and not make it compatible with old tech like lossless at least over a digital cable connection.

You’re leading into the point I’m making which is that if people cared or were knowledgeable about high-fidelity sound they never would’ve purchased any Apple headphones or speakers to begin with. Cheaper and better solutions have existed on the market long before Apple got involved. For example my wired audio-technica headphones that cost 1/3 the price of AirPods Max will always sound better then any wireless solution. I’ve been enjoying better sound with just the 3.5 mm adapter which has a DAC in it then any wireless headphone Apple makes. To get the best sound you want a DAC & amplifier with wired headphones or speakers. Apple speakers and headphones are meant to be wireless streaming devices for convenience and they were never designed for hi-fidelity sources. To me Apple is releasing lossless because they can and it’s really just a bonus to the people who know how to take advantage of it. Most consumers will stick with the ease of wireless. Now people understand there is a trade off. People are far too attached to their Apple products and they need to understand that just because it’s Apple does not mean it’s the best of the best.

 

[Xak444]

You’re leading into the point I’m making which is that if people cared or were knowledgeable about high-fidelity sound they never would’ve purchased any Apple headphones or speakers to begin with. Cheaper and better solutions have existed on the market long before Apple got involved. For example my wired audio-technica headphones that cost 1/3 the price of AirPods Max will always sound better then any wireless solution. I’ve been enjoying better sound with just the 3.5 mm adapter which has a DAC in it then any wireless headphone Apple makes. To get the best sound you want a DAC & amplifier with wired headphones or speakers. Apple speakers and headphones are meant to be wireless streaming devices for convenience and they were never designed for hi-fidelity sources. To me Apple is releasing lossless because they can and it’s really just a bonus to the people who know how to take advantage of it. Most consumers will stick with the ease of wireless. Now people understand there is a trade off. People are far too attached to their Apple products and they need to understand that just because it’s Apple does not mean it’s the best of the best.

I’m confused at why it’s so outrageous to think apple might make a great all around headphone or speaker. I understand it’s meant to be wireless tech but why would it be so bad if they did both.