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theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,980
8,392
Sorry this is not a scandal. Apple clearly states that the SSDs are not user serviceable.
Yeah, it's a glass half-full/half empty thing.

There won't be cheap third-party upgrades, and Apple charges through the nose for Flash - glass half empty.

If the SSD fails, an Apple-approved service engineer can replace it without replacing the whole logic board (unlike some other Macs) - glass half full.

Apple may make upgrade/replacement kits available in the future - as they have with the Mac Pro and/or if their promised (but, so far, not delivered) spare parts store materialises (but you'll need a second Mac to initialise it). Or they could pull the "but stupid people will kill themselves by licking the PSU" card - we might have a glass!!!?

Meanwhile, hopefully there will be some nice, matching/stackable HD/SSD enclosures available - if existing Mac Mini ones don't work. Of course, then the Mac Studio won't fit under the Studio Display unless you get the $400 stand...
 
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illitrate23

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2004
681
271
uk
OWC sells some external drive enclosures with Mac mini footprints.

I'm tempted by that, or something similar, as a way to raise the Studio off the desk and so hopefully reduce the amount of dust it sucks in if I ever tax it enough to spin up the fans beyond their idle speed
 

hugodrax

macrumors 65816
Jul 15, 2007
1,225
640
Bottom line the SSDs do not have a controller like the other similar drives, the SSD is in the computer itself.
 

roland.g

macrumors 604
Apr 11, 2005
7,471
3,254
OWC sells some external drive enclosures with Mac mini footprints.

OWC has a ministack STX which offers a NVMe SSD solution in a non-matching color but same stackable form factor. A 2 TB SSD plus enclosure runs $599. However, no information as to the R/W speeds for the SSD or the performance of those via TB4 vs the internal SSD on the Studio. And while the Mini won't suffer from a stack, not sure I want to make the Studio taller by stacking it on one of these.
 

eelpout

macrumors 6502
Oct 30, 2007
441
163
Silicon Valley
Bottom line the SSDs do not have a controller like the other similar drives, the SSD is in the computer itself.

Curious then that they didn't just solder SSD's to the board, getting the performance increase it would give (i.e. see MBP vs Studio). Though I'd rather have it the way they did it, giving some ease of swapping out if need be (for Apple anyway).
 
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F-Train

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Apr 22, 2015
2,272
1,762
NYC & Newfoundland
Curious then that they didn't just solder SSD's to the board, getting the performance increase it would give (i.e. see MBP vs Studio). Though I'd rather have it the way they did it, giving some ease of swapping out if need be (for Apple anyway).

I'm curious too. My guess is that Apple sees the "Studio" name as suggestive of flexibility on at least storage, and will offer upgrades done by itself or certified technicians. This should also reduce the cost of some repairs; no need to replace the entire board if a storage module dies. Both of these are selling points, although Apple is not yet talking about them as part of its marketing.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,980
8,392
Curious then that they didn't just solder SSD's to the board, getting the performance increase it would give (i.e. see MBP vs Studio). Though I'd rather have it the way they did it, giving some ease of swapping out if need be (for Apple anyway).
(A) SSDs fail - it makes them repairable by Apple service people with approved parts & access to the Apple configuration tools.
(B) logistics - there are a zillion permutations of configurations, on something that is going to sell in far fewer numbers than (say) an Air or Mini. Apple can decide how many of each configuration to make at assembly time rather than during main board manufacture.
(C) Not sure how big a deal the speed is - they’re still very close to the CPU with pretty short traces, and they’re only running at a fraction of the speed of RAM.
 

F-Train

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Apr 22, 2015
2,272
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NYC & Newfoundland
(B) logistics - there are a zillion permutations of configurations, on something that is going to sell in far fewer numbers than (say) an Air or Mini. Apple can decide how many of each configuration to make at assembly time rather than during main board manufacture.

Good point, and not one that had occurred to me.
 
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4sallypat

macrumors 601
Sep 16, 2016
4,031
3,781
So Calif
(A) SSDs fail - it makes them repairable by Apple service people with approved parts & access to the Apple configuration tools.
(B) logistics - there are a zillion permutations of configurations, on something that is going to sell in far fewer numbers than (say) an Air or Mini. Apple can decide how many of each configuration to make at assembly time rather than during main board manufacture.
(C) Not sure how big a deal the speed is - they’re still very close to the CPU with pretty short traces, and they’re only running at a fraction of the speed of RAM.
Ah, I see - that's excellent!

All 3 points does make logical sense indeed - the past issues with soldered in SSD failing prematurely, source of SSDs due to parts supply issues and having flexibility with single vs double module, plus the small speed issue.

I think Apple has been learning over time when they originally moved to soldered in SSD in the past.....
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,980
8,392
Scandal? Find me one instance where Apple advertised removable/replaceable storage or one extra storage slot. Lemming indeed......
The "scandal" (such as it is - and, yeah, perspective folks!) is that the hardware seems to be there to allow after-market storage expansion but that Apple are simply not allowing it - either because the configurator software artificially blocks it or you need a slightly different module to go into the "spare" slots.

Yeah, some people don't quite "get" the difference between M.2 NVMe modules with on-board SSD controllers and the Apple situation with the controller living on the M1 or T2 chip - it's never going to be plug'n'play because the controller needs to "learn" a lot of data about the flash chips. However, the technical situation with the Mac Pro is pretty much the same, and Apple did end up offering SSD upgrades for that.

I think Apple has been learning over time when they originally moved to soldered in SSD in the past.....
I fear that it is all about logistics and not about users, though. There's probably some cold equations based on predicted sale figures, unit costs and relative sales of different SSD configurations that determine whether it is more cost-efficient to socket or not to socket.

(Another issue that occurs to me is that having SSDs on daughterboards make make it easier to change the type/size/configuration of Flash chips used over the lifetime of the design without re-designing the logic board).
 
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T'hain Esh Kelch

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2001
6,447
7,365
Denmark
Apple also stated that modularity was a big thing for the Studio, yet, it apparently wasn't the case for their internal SSD's.. So modularity in Apples ears means ports, which again means that a MacBook Pro is also modular, which I find quite strange and a stretch of terms.
 
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iPadified

macrumors 68020
Apr 25, 2017
2,014
2,250
Can't see why this is a scandal. It is called business. Apple locks the machines down for user upgrade to earn good money by selling the SSD (and earlier RAM) themselves. I wonder how many complainers just want to save some money by using 3:rd party upgrades.
 
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AlphaCentauri

macrumors 6502
Mar 10, 2019
291
457
Norwich, United Kingdom
Apple also stated that modularity was a big thing for the Studio, yet, it apparently wasn't the case for their internal SSD's.. So modularity in Apples ears means ports, which again means that a MacBook Pro is also modular, which I find quite strange and a stretch of terms.
No, modularity by Apple means computer is separate from the display. Seriously.
 

edubfromktown

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2010
837
711
East Coast, USA
Published tonight. The lemmings who have jumped on this particular bandwagon aren't going to like what he has to say.

You can hold out forever and never purchase anything to avoid getting "locked in"

I've obtained whatever was needed from Apple for my personal and business needs going on 20+ years and made a better than anticipated living with the equipment.

I still run two 2011 Mini's on my internal LAN and expect to easily get 6+ years out of a Studio Max base model.

As time has gone by (particularly in the past ~5 years or so), the need to add user serviceable components like memory or storage is no longer applicable.
 
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bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,697
However, the technical situation with the Mac Pro is pretty much the same, and Apple did end up offering SSD upgrades for that.
I haven't seen one, but I expect that it's a LOT more accessible than the ones in the Studio.

Apple may offer an upgrade program where they do the work, but I seriously doubt it. No reason to. I think they did it this way to make it easier to fix.
 
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F-Train

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Apr 22, 2015
2,272
1,762
NYC & Newfoundland
I haven't seen one [a Mac Pro], but I expect that it's a LOT more accessible than the ones in the Studio.

The Mac Pro is a tower computer. In his review of the Mac Studio, Dave Lee says that for its power it is far and away the most compact computer he has seen. Ease of transport is one of its selling features.
 
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