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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
Original poster
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,616
Los Angeles, CA
The M1 has been lauded, by tech journalists and users alike, as an industry game changer for personal computing. I'm curious: Do you agree with that statement? If so, how do you think the personal computing industry has been forever changed by the advent of the M1 and Apple Silicon Macs at large?

Personally, I do think it was a fantastic move for Apple and I would argue that it's a game-changer for the Mac. But I don't see the personal computer industry changing or adopting similar strategies to this as a result of Apple doing it. Do I think we'll see more SoCs in non-Mac personal computers? Abso-friggin-lutely. But we're never going to see a computer maker own the entire hardware and software stack the way Apple now does with Apple Silicon Macs like the ones we now have with M1. Microsoft may have an SQ1 or SQ2 for the Surface Pro X, but that thing is a Qualcomm SoC. Samsung makes SoCs for its phones and tablets, but Samsung isn't Samsung's only customer for those SoCs. And while they do have their own version of Android (albeit one of the worst ones out there), it's not their OS underneath it all! I think Microsoft and Samsung have the best chance of trying to follow Apple on something like this. Maybe NVIDIA, now that they own ARM Holdings. But I think any one of the three of them doing it would take so much time to catch up to Apple. So, no, I don't think it's an "Industry Game Changer"; though I do think it's a massive game changer for the Mac itself. What say you all on this? Do you think the personal computing industry will forever be changed by this? And if so, how and when?
 

acidfast7_redux

Suspended
Nov 10, 2020
567
521
uk
Yes, it is a game-changer.

Also, the pricepoint is very low (sub-£900 in the UK) and apparently cheaper in the US with the 128 GiB SDD. The performance between charges is stellar and potentially unrivalled and all of those students with M1 MBA/MBPs at uni, will be Apple for life.

In the UK, in a lecture hall (last year) of around 300, I'd see about 60% Apple products back then and that was at a higher pricepoint.

So, the consumer market will change.

At the corporate level. decent-sized firms (25K+ people) will not adopt Apple as it will be too hard to pre-config everything for Win and macOS. So, in that regard it won't be paradigm shifting.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
Personally, I do think it was a fantastic move for Apple and I would argue that it's a game-changer for the Mac. But I don't see the personal computer industry changing or adopting similar strategies to this as a result of Apple doing it. Do I think we'll see more SoCs in non-Mac personal computers? Abso-friggin-lutely. But we're never going to see a computer maker own the entire hardware and software stack the way Apple now does with Apple Silicon Macs like the ones we now have with M1.

I agree with this sentiment. Apple has a huge advantage in being able to advance hardware and software simultaneously. Not only they can incorporate new accelerators, but they can also design their CPUs to better work with Mac software (an Apple employee tweeted that M1 has a dedicated hardware branch predictor for Objective-C message dispatch...). With Apple Silicon, there is now a big qualitative gap between the Mac and the rest of the PC world, and that gap will only widen with time.

What I hope is that this move will empower other companies to be more aggressive in challenging the x86 hegemony.
 

krazzix

macrumors 6502
Jun 15, 2010
268
364
Netherlands
If the trend of this chart continues, 86x processors will start to fall behind more and more every year. At some point the gap will be so big people won't buy 86x PC's anymore. The industry has to keep up. I'm sure the big players are already testing out ARM processors for PC's.

perf-trajectory_intel-apple-axx-anandtech.jpg
 

quarkysg

macrumors 65816
Oct 12, 2019
1,247
841
Maybe some enterprising folks will build a massive compute clusters with the Mx Macs in the future, seeing that it isvery power efficient compared to what's on the market.

With Docker coming on board and more appliances are released as native ARM binaries, it may turn into a data center monster as well, if Apple ever want to enter that piece of the market.
 
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acidfast7_redux

Suspended
Nov 10, 2020
567
521
uk
Maybe some enterprising folks will build a massive compute clusters with the Mx Macs in the future, seeing that it isvery power efficient compared to what's on the market.

With Docker coming on board and more appliances are released as native ARM binaries, it may turn into a data center monster as well, if Apple ever want to enter that piece of the market.
Actually, everyone I've talked that builds/runs scientific-computing clusters is unhappy with the deprecation of macOS compared to Linux/Unix.

From my FB feed, the biggest complaint is:

"The deprecation has been too aggressive for scientific computing- specifically dropping OpenGL makes some important apps unviable. At the same time WSL works well and I’ve come to the conclusion that windows machines are really as good as their (shop) configuration..."
 

Spindel

macrumors 6502a
Oct 5, 2020
521
655
I hope this move results in a "Industry game changer", just to get rid of crappy x86. But that is probably just wishful thinking from me.

But it is a game changer for Apple, it is good to them to make their products unique and not just "another PC in a fancy enclosure". Now I know they have always had macOS to diffrentiate and that for me was enough reason to go with Intel macs. But it is much more interesting when the entire computer actually is different.

It is also a good thing that macs ran on x86 prior this. Imagen a alternate reality where apple stuck with PPC (and it could keep up with intel performance wise) and the switch happened now in 2020 from PPC to ARM. My guess is that it wouldn't be as exciting because there would be much less software and apples market share would probably be much smaller than what it is in our current timeline. Now, much thanks to the x86 years, mac has a much wider software catalogue and bigger user base and this means that ARM will get much better software support.
 
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cfdlab

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2008
179
220
Maybe some enterprising folks will build a massive compute clusters with the Mx Macs in the future, seeing that it isvery power efficient compared to what's on the market.

With Docker coming on board and more appliances are released as native ARM binaries, it may turn into a data center monster as well, if Apple ever want to enter that piece of the market.
The fastest supercomputer today is based on ARM

 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
Actually, everyone I've talked that builds/runs scientific-computing clusters is unhappy with the deprecation of macOS compared to Linux/Unix.

From my FB feed, the biggest complaint is:

"The deprecation has been too aggressive for scientific computing- specifically dropping OpenGL makes some important apps unviable. At the same time WSL works well and I’ve come to the conclusion that windows machines are really as good as their (shop) configuration..."

I cannot understand this complaint. OpenGL/OpenCL work perfectly fine and will probably continue to do so for the foreseeable future. They are implemented as a wrapper around Metal on the Apple Silicon and Apple can continue to ship them at no cost. Deprecation simply means that one should not use that stuff anymore in new applications.
 

JohnnyGo

macrumors 6502a
Sep 9, 2009
957
620
ARM ISA will finally begin to takeover from x86 ISA.

Cloud offerings
Server side
Linux
ML / scientific calculation
Video production

These will all flock to the speed and efficiency of these new chips. Energy efficiency (and heat dissipation) are key drivers for large server data centers.

Will they change overnight? Will all be Mac offerings? Will Intel disappear? The answer is NO in all counts.

But the wave is coming and a new era of computing is finally upon us!
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
If the trend of this chart continues, 86x processors will start to fall behind more and more every year. At some point the gap will be so big people won't buy 86x PC's anymore. The industry has to keep up. I'm sure the big players are already testing out ARM processors for PC's.

<Image Snipped>

AMD not being included doesn’t paint an accurate picture of the future of x86, as AMD clearly is executing better than Intel right now. Apple isn’t selling their CPU core designs either, so it may be awhile until we start seeing other ARM designs catch up and also challenge x86 in the same way.

Legacy tooling and software will likely pull folks to AMD for a while in the desktop/laptop market. At least until Microsoft gets serious about Windows on ARM, and some manufacturer other than Apple gets serious about ARM on the desktop enough to deliver good performance there.
 

thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
If the trend of this chart continues, 86x processors will start to fall behind more and more every year. At some point the gap will be so big people won't buy 86x PC's anymore. The industry has to keep up. I'm sure the big players are already testing out ARM processors for PC's.

perf-trajectory_intel-apple-axx-anandtech.jpg
Careful, that's just compared to Intel; AMD is doing much better these days.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,308
8,320
Personally, I do think it was a fantastic move for Apple and I would argue that it's a game-changer for the Mac. But I don't see the personal computer industry changing or adopting similar strategies to this as a result of Apple doing it. Do I think we'll see more SoCs in non-Mac personal computers? Abso-friggin-lutely. But we're never going to see a computer maker own the entire hardware and software stack the way Apple now does with Apple Silicon Macs like the ones we now have with M1. Microsoft may have an SQ1 or SQ2 for the Surface Pro X, but that thing is a Qualcomm SoC. Samsung makes SoCs for its phones and tablets, but Samsung isn't Samsung's only customer for those SoCs. And while they do have their own version of Android (albeit one of the worst ones out there), it's not their OS underneath it all! I think Microsoft and Samsung have the best chance of trying to follow Apple on something like this. Maybe NVIDIA, now that they own ARM Holdings. But I think any one of the three of them doing it would take so much time to catch up to Apple. So, no, I don't think it's an "Industry Game Changer"; though I do think it's a massive game changer for the Mac itself. What say you all on this? Do you think the personal computing industry will forever be changed by this? And if so, how and when?

This certainly differentiates the Mac, and Apple undoubtedly sees the barriers that other PC companies have in replicating what they have done as an advantage. That said, M1 certainly demonstrates that there is a viable alternative to x86. Microsoft is probably in the best position to vertically integrate, since they write the OS and now design hardware. They could introduce reference designs, and work with a company like Qualcomm to design an SOC around a future update to Windows.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
Original poster
May 20, 2010
6,024
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Los Angeles, CA
If the trend of this chart continues, 86x processors will start to fall behind more and more every year. At some point the gap will be so big people won't buy 86x PC's anymore. The industry has to keep up. I'm sure the big players are already testing out ARM processors for PC's.

perf-trajectory_intel-apple-axx-anandtech.jpg
If all ARM SoCs/CPUs were created similarly and equally, I'd agree that this would threaten x86 pretty directly. However, Apple seems to be the only one designing SoCs this way, and they're only doing it for Apple and needs that specifically benefit the execution of macOS and the Mac platform. I think ARM64 versions of Windows and Linux will run well on Apple Silicon, but making that so is not Apple's primary objective (just as it never was with Intel Macs and x86 and x86-64 versions of Windows and Linux). But I think we're not going to see another chipmaker that isn't solely making chips for Apple (let alone Apple itself) producing ARM64 CPUs that are optimized as well for Windows 10 for ARM64 or other ARM64 distros. ARM is still relatively new in the desktop computing space (having mainly been for smartphones and tablets); Apple has one hell of an advantage in that Mac OS X/OS X/macOS has always been architecture independent, and in iOS and iPadOS (being mostly the same OS below the UI layers); they've pretty much had a thirteen year head-start to this point.
Maybe some enterprising folks will build a massive compute clusters with the Mx Macs in the future, seeing that it isvery power efficient compared to what's on the market.

You're still going to be limited in that M-series SoCs are optimized for Macs first and foremost. Apple doesn't care about the datacenter the way that Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, and Microsoft all do.

With Docker coming on board and more appliances are released as native ARM binaries, it may turn into a data center monster as well, if Apple ever want to enter that piece of the market.

It's possible. Though, I'm not sure the M-series scales as well as some of the other ARM SoCs out there that have 128 cores and insanity like that.

I hope this move results in a "Industry game changer", just to get rid of crappy x86. But that is probably just wishful thinking from me.

But it is a game changer for Apple, it is good to them to make their products unique and not just "another PC in a fancy enclosure". Now I know they have always had macOS to diffrentiate and that for me was enough reason to go with Intel macs. But it is much more interesting when the entire computer actually is different.

It is also a good thing that macs ran on x86 prior this. Imagen a alternate reality where apple stuck with PPC (and it could keep up with intel performance wise) and the switch happened now in 2020 from PPC to ARM. My guess is that it wouldn't be as exciting because there would be much less software and apples market share would probably be much smaller than what it is in our current timeline. Now, much thanks to the x86 years, mac has a much wider software catalogue and bigger user base and this means that ARM will get much better software support.
The move to Intel was huge in that it gave more developers a reason to port to x86 Mac OS X. I think Mac gaming got to the point where it was bigger than ever circa 2010-12 as a result. But I fear that may shrink down. Companies like Aspyr seem to be more focused on Linux ports these days (and with all of the hell that Apple has put developers through over the last few years, I really can't say I blame them at all). Luckily, Feral Interactive still seems to care. But the loss of games to Catalina ditching 32-bit Intel binary support was huge. And I'm sure that games weren't the only pieces of Mac software affected in this way.

I think you're right that the switch to Intel brought more developers into the Mac fold. I think the switch to Apple Silicon is going to be true test of loyalty to the Mac app ecosystem.
I cannot understand this complaint. OpenGL/OpenCL work perfectly fine and will probably continue to do so for the foreseeable future. They are implemented as a wrapper around Metal on the Apple Silicon and Apple can continue to ship them at no cost. Deprecation simply means that one should not use that stuff anymore in new applications.
Deprecation, especially with Apple (and Microsoft nowadays too) usually means the actual axe is coming. Apple isn't usually one to leave deprecated technologies around in macOS all that long. So, I definitely understand the concern of that deprecation.
ARM ISA will finally begin to takeover from x86 ISA.

Cloud offerings
Server side
Linux
ML / scientific calculation
Video production

These will all flock to the speed and efficiency of these new chips. Energy efficiency (and heat dissipation) are key drivers for large server data centers.

Will they change overnight? Will all be Mac offerings? Will Intel disappear? The answer is NO in all counts.

But the wave is coming and a new era of computing is finally upon us!
You need more people attempting to do what Apple has done for this to actually take off. It's like Apple came up with the cure to COVID-19, but only inoculated themselves with it. Puts them in a really great spot, but it ONLY puts them in a really great spot. That's not to say that x86 isn't in a jam. I think the fact that TSMC is also manufacturing AMD's chips puts AMD in a good spot to keep innovating x86. But Intel is in a bad bind (due not in small part to their poor upper management) and they're a key player. But on the whole, for ARM to really take off, more people need to be building with, innovating, and employing it. Though, I would agree that this does seem inevitable right now.
AMD not being included doesn’t paint an accurate picture of the future of x86, as AMD clearly is executing better than Intel right now. Apple isn’t selling their CPU core designs either, so it may be awhile until we start seeing other ARM designs catch up and also challenge x86 in the same way.

Legacy tooling and software will likely pull folks to AMD for a while in the desktop/laptop market. At least until Microsoft gets serious about Windows on ARM, and some manufacturer other than Apple gets serious about ARM on the desktop enough to deliver good performance there.
I definitely agree with this. The fact that there isn't a desktop variant (and only a server-focused edition) of Ubuntu for ARM64 is telling. Because, otherwise, Apple would've demoed that at WWDC instead of Debian (which, while the basis of Ubuntu is not as popular by comparison). ARM for desktop is still bleeding edge. Apple has just had more time to get comfortable with the idea of moving their own desktop platform there.
This certainly differentiates the Mac, and Apple undoubtedly sees the barriers that other PC companies have in replicating what they have done as an advantage. That said, M1 certainly demonstrates that there is a viable alternative to x86. Microsoft is probably in the best position to vertically integrate, since they write the OS and now design hardware. They could introduce reference designs, and work with a company like Qualcomm to design an SOC around a future update to Windows.
They did that with the SQ1, the SoC that went into the first Surface Pro X, and the SQ2, the SoC that went into the second Surface Pro X. It performed native OS functions and apps well enough; the latter doing a bit of a better job than the former. But it's a far cry from Big Sur on M1.
 

magbarn

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2008
3,018
2,386
If the trend of this chart continues, 86x processors will start to fall behind more and more every year. At some point the gap will be so big people won't buy 86x PC's anymore. The industry has to keep up. I'm sure the big players are already testing out ARM processors for PC's.

perf-trajectory_intel-apple-axx-anandtech.jpg
There’s Only one intel chip there in your chart that isn’t 14nm.

AMD is able to match the M1 in ST and beat it in MT but consumes large amount of power doing it while at 7nm. We’ll see what AMD is able to do with 5nm. Help to be much richer like Apple and buy yourself early 5nm allocation though “investments” into TSMC.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,308
8,320
They did that with the SQ1, the SoC that went into the first Surface Pro X, and the SQ2, the SoC that went into the second Surface Pro X. It performed native OS functions and apps well enough; the latter doing a bit of a better job than the former. But it's a far cry from Big Sur on M1.
It's a start, but I think to make an "M1-style" advance, Qualcomm (or Microsoft) would need to obtain an ARM ISA license, rather than just use the ARM reference designs. It won't be an overnight process, but could they get there in 3-5 years? Perhaps.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
Original poster
May 20, 2010
6,024
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Los Angeles, CA
Apple didn't care, doesn't mean they won't or in fact don't. The potential is definitely there.
Potential and Possible are not the same as probable. They probably don't care. They have put energy into IT as of late (albeit in a very odd roundabout way that still mostly relies on third party MDM solutions to do the brunt of the work), but their focus has always been on end user computing. Otherwise, you'd see Apple offering solutions to compete with MacStadium and now Amazon on cloud hosted Mac solutions.
It's a start, but I think to make an "M1-style" advance, Qualcomm (or Microsoft) would need to obtain an ARM ISA license, rather than just use the ARM reference designs. It won't be an overnight process, but could they get there in 3-5 years? Perhaps.
Right, I think ARM isn't the secret sauce itself, but it's definitely the base ingredient of the secret sauce.
 
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JohnnyGo

macrumors 6502a
Sep 9, 2009
957
620
I have to agree that the strongest player right now (Apple) is not interested in this battle royale.

We need either Qualcomm or Microsoft to pickup their game in order to develop a world class ARM chip for all the different markets (mobile/PC/server) to fuel software development to break for good the Wintel monopoly.

Apple will most likely keep its secret sauce inside its ecosystem.
 
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russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,664
10,264
USA
Of course it's a game changer. Intel has one foot in the grave so it looks like AMD is alone when it comes to chips. It's not direct competition though because Apple makes machines for specific purposes rather than chips. I'm sure AMD is looking very closely at Apple Silicon and figuring a way to copy or at least make a version of it. Laptops and small desktops are the near future of computing and that's where Apple M1 is crushing it. Long range it might be more computing offloaded to the cloud so on device power might not be as critical.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,308
8,320
I have to agree that the strongest player right now (Apple) is not interested in this battle royale.

We need either Qualcomm or Microsoft to pickup their game in order to develop a world class ARM chip for all the different markets (mobile/PC/server) to fuel software development to break for good the Wintel monopoly.

Apple will most likely keep its secret sauce inside its ecosystem.
Yes, this differentiates Apple. They can design future SoCs around what they want to build, not what is available to everyone else in the industry.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
Laptops and small desktops are the near future of computing and that's where Apple M1 is crushing it. Long range it might be more computing offloaded to the cloud so on device power might not be as critical.
That future is already here. Lightweight end user devices and data centers are the present day of computing. High-end laptops and desktops are only useful for niche tasks such as AAA gaming and some forms of software development and video editing. If you need performance, it's usually more convenient to have it in a data center than on your desk.

The main advantage of the M1 is the power consumption, not the performance. The current devices are already fast enough for most tasks, but people do appreciate longer battery life and silent operation. For some time now, end user device lifespans have depended more on durability than performance. If you bought a high-end laptop or desktop 10 years ago, the device is still fast enough for daily use, but the hardware is probably no longer in a good condition. If nothing else, thermal paste has deteriorated over the years, forcing fans to run faster and the CPU/GPU to throttle down sooner than before.
 
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