M1 mini + HDR OLED TV = underwhelming results

[s66]

I have a new M1 powered Mac Mini connected through a Denon AVR (that's 4K, HDR capable and connects other devices that do 4K HDR through it) to an LG OLED77G7

Connection for now is over HDMI cabling (good ones)

I also have an MP7,1 and XDR displays to compare what a mac can do with an XDR. I'm not expecting the TV to do what an XDR can, but I was hoping macOS would at least react to it in the same way.

The good news:
4K is working and scaling etc are all doing their job properly.
View attachment 1693321
This shows exactly the same with HDR turned on or off:

View attachment 1693331



The HDR results are unfortunately very underwhelming for now

As soon as I enable the "High Dynamic Range" checkbox, the whole User Interface goes into brightness and saturation overdrive.

Unbearable to watch the normal user interface anymore and colors in e.g. a browser for normal content are halfway psychedelic
Yes the TV sees the HDR and reacts to it by showing the HDR notification, but the result is really unbearable.

View attachment 1693320

I have tried the it with HDR turned on and off in the settings. With multiple media players. The results are never good.

HDR in display preferences off:
- no player shows HDR content (expected)
HDR in display preferences on:
- all content shows way too bright
- the media players that do not support HDR show a bright result, but there's banding in the result (not 19 bit?)
- the one media player (QuickTime) that does properly support HDR: shows a very bright result - I suspect it might even be clipped due to going too bright but it shows no banding in the same content


I fear a bit the HDMI port might be the cause for it all: Apple after all claims it's HDMI2.0 (which is not enough IMHO to get 4K in 10 bit HDR throughput) - but then why do they let one turn HDR on while connected through that port ?

But before I try to buy an usb-c to HDMI2.0b convertor/cable ...

Anybody else got any success in having HDR turned on without the whole screen going insanely bright ?

Anybody tried with hooking a HDR TV up through the TB3 ports to a HDMI2.0b convertor ? Any better ?

As said before: I do have an MP7,1 hooked up to an XDR, and as such I know what players work there first hand. And I know how macOS can react to HDR screens and content just as well. The experience on a OLED TV hooked up to the M1 mac mini so far is nowhere near to that one.

So anybody have a HDR screen that's not an XDR that's not turning all bright when turning on the HDR mode on the Mac side ?

 

[cupcakes2000]

I could never get good results from any TV set with a computer. At least regarding the interface. Content should be fine though?

 

[s66]

I could never get good results from any TV set with a computer.

Without HDR it's perfectly fine in 4K/60Hz with scaling etc. all working just fine.

At least regarding the interface. Content should be fine though?

HDR content is never OK
-> without HDR mode on it's too dark (somewhat expected)
-> with HDR mode on the normal UI is all blown way too bright
-> with HDR mode on and a player that does NOT support HDR comme-il-faut: it's OK-ish but there's banding if you look at it closely
-> with HDR mode on and a player that does supprort HDR like QuickTime: the banding is gone, but it feels it might be overblowing the highlights. (it's just all too bright)

 

[andrewstirling]

Have you tried your TV with other hdr sources? I’m guessing it’s not set up in some crazy vivid mode?

 

[s66]

Have you tried your TV with other hdr sources? I’m guessing it’s not set up in some crazy vivid mode?

The TV works fine with HDR content from other sources like an Apple TV, its "smart" apps etc.

 

[bill-p]

My M1 MacBook Pro is fine with LG CX even with HDR (Youtube looks pretty much the same as the built-in app). So perhaps it's some kind of setting on your TV that's not working properly?

 

[Krevnik]

-> with HDR mode on the normal UI is all blown way too bright

I have this particular issue with an LG 38GL950 and my Mac Pro. It seems to be that it uses the new HDR white point as the white point for the UI, which is generally a bad idea.

Even though the 38GL950 only supports HDR400, because I calibrated at 110nits for SDR, it's still eye-searingly bright.

 

[s66]

My M1 MacBook Pro is fine with LG CX even with HDR (Youtube looks pretty much the same as the built-in app). So perhaps it's some kind of setting on your TV that's not working properly?

A MBP doesn't have that HDMI port, so that might be a difference already.
I've doubts about the HDMI port due to apple claiming it's HDMI 2.0 (and not claiming it's HDMI 2.0b) - but are they underselling it or is it just not working properly or ...

The settings on the TV are all identical with other sources like an Apple TV that work as expected as it connects through the receiver that does the switching.

 

[s66]

I have this particular issue with an LG 38GL950 and my Mac Pro. It seems to be that it uses the new HDR white point as the white point for the UI, which is generally a bad idea.

Even though the 38GL950 only supports HDR400, because I calibrated at 110nits for SDR, it's still eye-searingly bright.

Just trying to get a complete picture: how is that LG connected ?
Mac / PCIe card / port on the card / and cable

 

[Krevnik]

Just trying to get a complete picture: how is that LG connected ?
Mac / PCIe card / port on the card / and cable

It’s connected via a USB-C to DisplayPort cable in both cases.

By both, I mean the M1 mini, and the Mac Pro.

I've doubts about the HDMI port due to apple claiming it's HDMI 2.0 (and not claiming it's HDMI 2.0b) - but are they underselling it or is it just not working properly or ...

The settings on the TV are all identical with other sources like an Apple TV that work as expected as it connects through the receiver that does the switching.

2.0b only adds HLG support, while 2.0a added HDR10 support. HLG isn’t going to be the reason it works or not. Apple TV uses HDR10 as well (or Dolby Vision if supported by the video file which isn’t part of any HDMI spec).

And I’ll point out that the Apple TV and M1 should share a lot in common in terms of how HDMI works, and what’s supported. The Apple TV is an older SoC design on top of that.

But what you are experiencing sounds a lot like OS level issues, not specifically hardware related. ColorSync and CoreGraphics should be responsible for handling this sort of thing, before the GPU gets involved. The GPU in this case is passing along the HDR metadata provided by the OS, and not much more.

So far my experience of both HDR in macOS and Windows is terribly underwhelming because of poor mapping of SDR-intended UI to HDR. My Apple TV isn’t perfect here either with my Sony (LG-made) OLED. The Apple TV has a saturation issue if I leave HDR turned on for the UI. macOS has a brightness issue. Windows has both.

I haven’t had a chance to play around with an XDR, but I wonder what extra logic Apple has that prevents these sort of problems on that display, and why it isn’t applied to all HDR-capable displays?

 

[s66]

I haven’t had a chance to play around with an XDR, but I wonder what extra logic Apple has that prevents these sort of problems on that display, and why it isn’t applied to all HDR-capable displays?

Thanks for the reply.

XDR:
I have a few of them (hooked up to MP7,1s)

The screen can be set in a certain calibrated profile, but assuming the 500 or 1500 nits "general purpose" profile:
the User interface looks in both modes exactly the same as you expect from any mac. In fact even on side-to-side screens one in 500 and one in 1600 mode: you can't see a difference at all without HDR content playing. I'm not sure you can see much in run of the mill HDR content either - have not tried yet. It's fully normal brightness, normal colors.
It's only when a window contains HDR content that you see the crazy brightness the screen can do - in that window only- the rest of the screen remains normal as before.
AFAIK it works by the application making a call to change some settings on a layer. There's however VERY few non-apple applications that output any HDR on a XDR screen. [Browsers are capable most of the time - but if you're limited to youtube it's always a guess if and when it's not working if it's youtuve not wanting to give it or the browser not showing it properly].
Media Player Software: I've tried a lot of them: only QuickTime outputs HDR on a MP7,1 with an XDR. All the rest compress it all into a dark and gloomy image.

 

[Krevnik]

Yeah, that makes me even more confused as to what's going on with HDR support for non-XDR displays. Everything you've described doesn't require the XDR display to work.

The only difference is that I think of is that the XDR is the only one that has these modes, which macOS could then use to set SDR white points correctly no matter what peak nit mode you use. With HDR10/Dolby, the source just sets the range in the metadata and is supposed to let the display figure out how to tone map things.

But I'm not really sure macOS handles that all that well. It may also be setting the white point quite high for SDR under HDR10. I haven't dug in deeply enough to find out what Apple is doing here. It also got turned on in a fairly late Catalina update sometime this year, so I don't even know if they actually put much thought into it.

This is something an Apple engineer would probably need to respond to, to be honest. As I said, I've not been impressed with it.

 

[s66]

Just tried it with macOS 11.1: still the same. Will try later to hook up the M1 mac mini to an XDR a try to see if I have cables to hook up a MP7,1 to the TV without having to remodel the house too much to see if any of that fixes anything.

But yes: I'd strongly wish that any mac would use a HDR capable TV like they do with an XDR display. That overly bright, neon like colors for a normal user interface and normal websites is not the way to go to promote HDR anywhere.

No wonder there's so few media players for a mac that supports outputting HDR as it should on an XDR. If developers need an XDR to even be able to test their stuff works properly ...

 

[HarperVision]

Are you sure that the Mini is sending the proper HDR metadata when connected to the OLED, so it kicks that display into its proper HDR mode?

Do you happen to have an HDFury device you can use to check what metadata is being sent, or to force metadata for correct display on your OLED?

 

[s66]

Are you sure that the Mini is sending the proper HDR metadata when connected to the OLED, so it kicks that display into its proper HDR mode?

Do you happen to have an HDFury device you can use to check what metadata is being sent, or to force metadata for correct display on your OLED?

The TV is showing it is receiving HDR (logo that appear when it starts to receive HDR on screen)
+ the info says it is receiving 4K , HDR, BT.2020

So I'm pretty confident the TV receives HDR.

I don't have hardware to check let alone modify the HDMI signals.

 

[CSBBody]

my Apple TV does exactly the same, as you describe it. Blown UI and HDR looking sHocking. Mine runs via a Yamaha receiver which drives my home theater.

The issue was sorted out in the settings, if I selected 4K HDR, it would blow, but if I selected SDR 4K and switched frame rate and HDR to auto, everything performs as expected.

How this translates to the M1 i have no idea, never hooked my laptop to the TV, hopefully someone more experienced can isolate the issue.

Just your description, reminded me exactly what i experienced, when i was freaking out trying to get my Apple TV to work.

 

[s66]

Switching between HDR and non HDR modes isn't really a feasible general purpose option for a computer display as you can easily have windows doing normal "SDR" output while another one does "HDR" output right next to it.
If the screen can do HDR, it really needs to be all the time in HDR mode. And the "normal" UI colors need to remain "normal" and not become overly bright/neon. As well as at the same time be ready that windows that need it can get access to it without having to wait X seconds for the display to switch and adapt to it all nor that all of the screen might need to output HDR anyway.

Maybe part of it is that it's a TV and Apple / LG have their own ideas of how things need to work.

FWIW: The TV is op to date on software/firmware as well as the mac and the receiver.

 

[HarperVision]

The TV is showing it is receiving HDR (logo that appear when it starts to receive HDR on screen)
+ the info says it is receiving 4K , HDR, BT.2020

So I'm pretty confident the TV receives HDR.

I don't have hardware to check let alone modify the HDMI signals.

Actually the more I think about it, it would be the opposite effect than what I described. If your Mac Mini is sending SDR and your OLED is in HDR mode, then you’d get the blown out colors, etc., but If you send HDR and the OLED is in SDR mode, then the colors would be muted and washed out.

I think the next poster may have been on to something, that your menus/GUI are rendered in SDR but your OLED is in HDR mode, hence blown out colors etc. Is there a match dynamic range option in the Mini’s graphics settings?