M2, Thunderbolt 5?

[Mr Screech]

Found out today Thunderbolt 5 is a thing.
Any word on this being part of the M2 series?
I ordered an ultra but if they release the M2 version one year later with double the external data-rate (80Gbps), it's worth waiting for.

 

[tmoerel]

Found out today Thunderbolt 5 is a thing.
Any word on this being part of the M2 series?
I ordered an ultra but if they release the M2 version one year later with double the external data-rate (80Gbps), it's worth waiting for.

This will not be released before 2023. Especially with all the supply chain problems at the moment!

 

[TinyMito]

Funny, hope that pushing the tech doesn't add more cost to buy. Barely any devices at Thunderbolt 3 on market. Many are still stuck in 5Gbps/10Gbps USB 3.2 Gen 2×2 and USB4 Gen 2×2/USB4 Gen 3×2 is just around the corner.

I am hoping USB4 to move out that mess of USB3.x naming. God dam confusing trying to figure out what type of cable I have.

 

[l0stl0rd]

It would make more sense to add Wifi 6 or HDMI 2.1.

Unless Ape gives us TB 5 eGPUs

 

[leman]

I would expect TB5 to ship before 2024 or even 2025. Very little practical use at the moment. If you need faster external connectivity today, you probably need a whole different equipment stack in the first place.

 

[thenewperson]

It's not even out yet, so it probably won't be part of any M2 chips.

 

[jdb8167]

It would make more sense to add Wifi 6 or HDMI 2.1.

WiFi6? The M1 already has WiFi6. Maybe you mean 6E? HDMI 2.1 doesn’t mean much by itself since the HDMI 2.1 spec allows for HDMI 2.0 to be called 2.1 with no changes.

 

[jdb8167]

Found out today Thunderbolt 5 is a thing.
Any word on this being part of the M2 series?
I ordered an ultra but if they release the M2 version one year later with double the external data-rate (80Gbps), it's worth waiting for.

Some parts of the HDMI 2.1 spec require such high data rates (48 Gbps) so it seems likely that TB5 will come along at the same time. DisplayPort 2.0 also requires high data rates (77 Gbps).

 

[Mr Screech]

It will also make external bootdisks more viable, which right now are capped to ~2300 mb/s.
Afaik you can't make a bootable raid volume across 2 thunderbolt 3/4 ports.

 

[Kazgarth]

Thunderbolt 5 is Intel's technology, they will only license it to third party manufacturer like AMD & Apple after releasing it first on their hardware, which they haven't yet.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Whatever they do, they absolutely need to add HDMI 2.1

 

[leman]

Thunderbolt 5 is Intel's technology, they will only license it to third party manufacturer like AMD & Apple after releasing it first on their hardware, which they haven't yet.

Are you sure it works this way? Wasn’t M1 the first product to implement TB4? And anyway, I can imagine Apple having more exclusive access to the tech seeing that they co-developed it.

 

[doboy]

They need to get TB4 to work correctly first before moving on, haha.

 

[l0stl0rd]

WiFi6? The M1 already has WiFi6. Maybe you mean 6E? HDMI 2.1 doesn’t mean much by itself since the HDMI 2.1 spec allows for HDMI 2.0 to be called 2.1 with no changes.

Ah yes sorry 6E, the 6 GHz one and 120 hz HDMI 2.1

 

[TinyMito]

They need to get TB4 to work correctly first before moving on, haha.

I think the industry is looking to skip that because TB5 is around the corner. To design and develop a TB4 devices mid cycle R&D is costly that only last for a year.

 

[Kazgarth]

Are you sure it works this way? Wasn’t M1 the first product to implement TB4? And anyway, I can imagine Apple having more exclusive access to the tech seeing that they co-developed it.

That used to be the case when MacBooks used Intel CPUs (First device to come with a Thunderbolt was a MacBook in 2011).

But now as you know things changed.

Intel released TB4 with 11th Gen Intel Laptops. And a quick google search shows that Dell XPS had it since September 2020 before the Mac.

🔎 dell xps 13 9310 release date - Google Search

www.google.com

There might be others released earlier, but I don't have the list of all 11th gen Intel devices.

 

[satcomer]

You have to look at Intel because they make the Thunderbolt controllers! So go look if a new Thunderbolt coming up!

 

[BeatCrazy]

You have to look at Intel because they make the Thunderbolt controllers! So go look if a new Thunderbolt coming up!

Apple has their own Thunderbolt controller built into the M1 silicon. They don't have to rely on Intel/a chip for it.

 

[satcomer]

Apple has their own Thunderbolt controller built into the M1 silicon. They don't have to rely on Intel/a chip for it.

Thunderbolt is an intel tech! that's why it's in PC Boards of higher end! You can even go to Intel site and learn about Thunderbolt is Intel tech!

 

[BeatCrazy]

Thunderbolt is an intel tech! that's why it's in PC Boards of higher end! You can even go to Intel site and learn about Thunderbolt is Intel tech!

Beginning 3 years, Intel opened up Thunderbolt licensing to anyone, i.e. Apple. So Apple doesn’t have to use Intel’s chips.

 

[Analog Kid]

Thunderbolt is an intel tech! that's why it's in PC Boards of higher end! You can even go to Intel site and learn about Thunderbolt is Intel tech!

Thunderbolt was developed by Apple and Intel.

Thunderbolt (interface) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[leman]

Thunderbolt is an intel tech! that's why it's in PC Boards of higher end! You can even go to Intel site and learn about Thunderbolt is Intel tech!

It’s an Apple/Intel tech, Apple just transferred the IP to Intel. Does t change the fact that Apple has their own TB controllers, with focus on device isolation and security. They do not use Intel TB controllers, but they douse Intel-made TB repeater chips if I remember correctly.

 

[EntropyQ3]

Anyways, trawling the internet hasn’t revealed any schedule for release of a new TB5 standard.

As was remarked, it kind of makes sense to have it reasonably close in time to higher data rate HDMI (48Gb/s has been out for a fairly long time) and DP2 (which isn’t in consumer products just yet). As far as storage is concerned, PCIe4x4 SSDs are getting both common and cheap, and PCIe5 is on the market via Intel already and AMD by autumn, so storage bandwidth is moving along briskly at the moment. Being capped at much lower bandwidth as soon as you move outside the computer cabinet is a bit unfortunate. Although maybe not an immediate problem either at 2.5 GBytes/s.

What has been frustrating is the lack of adaption of USB-4. The industry dragging its feet there means that most inexpensive peripheral equipment is still limited to 10Gb/s, at best, on Macs.

 

[deconstruct60]

Some parts of the HDMI 2.1 spec require such high data rates (48 Gbps) so it seems likely that TB5 will come along at the same time. DisplayPort 2.0 also requires high data rates (77 Gbps).

DisplayPort 2.0 fundamentally just uses the base technology of TBv3-4 at the low levels. Thunderbolt is a bidirectional 40Gb/s. ( data can go up/down from a device as speeds independently up to 40Gb/s. ). DPv2 primarily just gets rid of the bidirectional aspect. You turn the "inbound to computer" lanes into another "outbound" lane bundle. Ta-da ... 80Gb/s of overall aggregate bandwidth outbound.

Makes for a worse "docking station monitor" because all the peripheral ports have embedded in the 'monitor' don't has a communications channel back to the host computer that is worth much ( USB 2.0 lanes which is a separate wire bundle).

HDMI has similar upsides in not really being bidirectional for most of the 'bus' connections. ( have stuff like audio ARC but that isn't much bandwidth).


IMHO, there will be a Thunderbolt 4.5 ( or some variant less than '5' ). Intel will weave in DPv2 mode when their GPUs generally provision DPv2. ( especially at the iGPU level). It will be an 'required' USB-alt mode. And a relatively minor change to the underlying controllers. ( internal switches will need some updates but limited amount of changes. )


But none of this PAM3 encoding stuff for 80Gb/s bidirectional. (i.e., twice as much data onto the same wire bundles already have. )
3

 

[deconstruct60]

It’s an Apple/Intel tech, Apple just transferred the IP to Intel. Does t change the fact that Apple has their own TB controllers, with focus on device isolation and security. They do not use Intel TB controllers, but they douse Intel-made TB repeater chips if I remember correctly.

Don't use Intel controllers in the Studio Display? Apple's TB controller is embedded in the M-series. The teardowns of the Studio Display have generally not gone down to the chip level, but I don't recall anymore announcing that Apple had a discrete TB controllers of their own.

If they don't have a discrete one, then Apple cannot be a "definer" of the Thunderbolt ecosystem. If no Thunderbolt 5 peripherals then there pragmatically isn't any. Thunderbolt 5 ecosystem.