M3 worse pixel response times

[juxr]

Any thoughts on the issue that M3 Macbook pros have worse pixel response times than the M2s?

So far I´ve only seen a review of the m3 14" that tested pixel response time with worse results from 35ms to 69ms almost doubling the delay.

Why are the screens still advertised as 120hz but the pixel response times are nowhere near that?

I can't understand how these laptops have the worse pixel response times in a modern laptop yet almost no review site mention it apart from notebookcheck. Reading any text when scrolling is impossible with those numbers and makes the 120hz pro motion display irrelevant.

 

[osx64]

Notebookcheck has also tested the 16”, seems to have slightly better response times vs M2:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...allenges-HX-CPUs-from-AMD-Intel.766414.0.html

Could be unit to unit variance. Not great for gaming but otherwise fine.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

It’s been an ongoing issue for years. They had improved the response time quite a bit with the M2 generation. Link to the review?

 

[TheRealAlex]

Takes your brain 400ms to interpret an image from yours eyes. Another 400ms for your brain to send a signal to your muscles to move. So we have the slowest “response times”

 

[woolypants]

Takes your brain 400ms to interpret an image from yours eyes. Another 400ms for your brain to send a signal to your muscles to move. So we have the slowest “response times”

This isn't the issue with slow response screens. It's that they cause us to see blur. Move a window on a 120Hz panel and it'll certainly seem smoother than 60Hz, for example. But with a poor response time, it'll turn into a blurry mess that we fallible humans can certainly detect.

 

[juxr]

It’s been an ongoing issue for years. They had improved the response time quite a bit with the M2 generation. Link to the review?

Apple MacBook Pro 14 2023 M3 Review - The base model now comes without a Pro SoC

Notebookcheck reviews the brand-new Apple MacBook Pro 14 with the base M3 processor and brighter Liquid Retina XDR display.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[juxr]

Notebookcheck has also tested the 16”, seems to have slightly better response times vs M2:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...allenges-HX-CPUs-from-AMD-Intel.766414.0.html

Could be unit to unit variance. Not great for gaming but otherwise fine.

The 16" M3 appears to have the same panel than the 16" M2. I own it and it's a blurry mess, unusable for anything that moves on screen.

That is the thing, people think it only affects gamers. It affects everything. Moving the mouse or any window or scrolling make he whole content blurry. It is not "fine" on a 2023 laptop. 15 year old laptops have better response times than this.

I challenge anyone to try any other laptop and try to read text while scrolling or moving a window. It is a night and day difference. Makes the MacBooks feel like a slow old piece of tech.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

I totally agree, slow response time was one of the main reasons I returned my 2019 MBP 16”. It’s really sad to see this regression on the 14” M3. I was literally about to buy one until I saw this. Competing Windows laptops have sub-20ms response times. The Lenovo Yoga 9i is at 12ms, for example.

I’m going to a store today to run a quick BlurBusters UFO test and see how bad it is. I hate blurry text when scrolling and motion blur when watching videos.

 

[Ascn]

I was looking for slow response times but did not notice them on the models they had in the store.
It feels smoother than my MacBook Air M1 and i did not notice any smearing or what so ever.

When looking at the BlurBusters UFO test, how does a slow response time look in this test?

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

OK, I did some quick BlurBusters tests in the store today, and compared them against some images I took of the M2 models with the same technique(*) back in July 2023.

The left column shows the images from July, comparing the M2 MBA 15" (at 60Hz refresh) against the M2 MBP 14" (at 120Hz refresh). Note these images were on an iPhone 11 Pro, so the photo quality is different.

The right column shows the images from today, comparing the M2 MBA 15" (at 60Hz refresh) again for reference, against the M3 MBP 14" (again, at 120Hz refresh). These were taken with an iPhone 15 Pro.

As you can see, the M2 and M3 MBP 14" UFOs look very similar. I don't see any big degradation in response time. Arguably it's very slightly worse. To the naked eye, the M3 MBP 14" did not seem any more blurry than the last generation did, which is to say, absolutely nowhere near as clear as any gaming monitor or OLED - but still usable.

Scrolling white text on a black background shows the usual small trails, but not noticeably worse than the last generation.

So the NotebookCheck review may have been due to unit-to-unit variation or something else. Another possibility is a difference between the base M3 model (which NotebookCheck reviewed) and the M3 Pro model I saw in the store, but that seems unlikely.

(*) Technique: Open Safari, open Settings. Turn on 120Hz mode by turning on "Show features for web developers" under Advanced, then going to Feature Flags, searching for "60", and turning off "Prefer Page Rendering Updates near 60Hz". Navigate to https://blurbusters.com/category/testufo/ and click the button to open full screen. Set brightness to max. Take a photo or video with your iPhone while moving the phone from left to right to follow the UFOs so you get one in focus. If you have a camera app that gives you manual shutter speed control you could also keep the phone in one position, but you'd need to set the shutter speed pretty fast, e.g. 1/200s or faster.

 

[Ascn]

Interesting, i was in the store just moving some windows around, scrolling on GitHub through some code, and i could even read the code during scrolling, which is not possible with 60Hz on my MacBook Air M1.
I did not see a difference between the 14 and 16 inch models.

If i use my iPhone 14 Pro, i normally use 120Hz. But during work my focus mode activates low power mode, and only in the beginning i notice it, but during the day i get also used to the 60Hz.

Maybe i am not sensitive to this. I also played computer games when i was younger only with 60Hz monitors (DotA 2, Counter Strike, ...). The difference to 30Hz is noticeable, for example when i play Mario Kart in 4 player split screen, the framerate goes down to 30FPS. This is noticeable for the first game, but then i get used to it.

Is motion blur something you also get used to?

 

[Giant_enemy_crab]

So ****ing disappointing. The motion ghosting is HORRIBLE. They shouldn’t be able to call this 120hz at all.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

It's not great. I use an LG 27GN950 165Hz panel as my desktop screen, and it has almost zero motion ghosting. Whenever I use my M3 MBP, I immediately notice the streaks when scrolling. It doesn't bother me too much though and I don't think it's much worse than the M2 generation.

With the rumors of Apple moving MacBooks to OLED in the next few years, this problem will eventually go away.

 

[richard371]

is this something where some people are more sensitive? I'm not seeing any diff from the mob screen to my LG 4K monitor.

 

[magbarn]

I just got the M3 Max 16 and it's about the same as my M1 Max 16. Still way better than the 2019 16 that I dumped last month. Maybe multiple panel sources? Either case, MacBooks have always have had slow screens. When I hook up the M3 Max to my LG OLED at 4K/120, it's so crisp with no motion blur compared to the miniled.

 

[TheRealAlex]

Yeah the M3 Pro 14 is likely going back the Display is Laughable once you have experience OLED 240hz.

Alienware 34 QD-OLED UFO Test - Blur Busters Forums

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Maybe multiple panel sources?

Yes could be (didn't the panels used to come from two different manufacturers, i.e. Samsung and LG?), or a bad unit, an error in NotebookCheck's methodology, or some other unknown issue (e.g. battery level or power mode during testing).

 

[Ascn]

OK, I did some quick BlurBusters tests in the store today, and compared them against some images I took of the M2 models with the same technique(*) back in July 2023.

The left column shows the images from July, comparing the M2 MBA 15" (at 60Hz refresh) against the M2 MBP 14" (at 120Hz refresh). Note these images were on an iPhone 11 Pro, so the photo quality is different.

The right column shows the images from today, comparing the M2 MBA 15" (at 60Hz refresh) again for reference, against the M3 MBP 14" (again, at 120Hz refresh). These were taken with an iPhone 15 Pro.

As you can see, the M2 and M3 MBP 14" UFOs look very similar. I don't see any big degradation in response time. Arguably it's very slightly worse. To the naked eye, the M3 MBP 14" did not seem any more blurry than the last generation did, which is to say, absolutely nowhere near as clear as any gaming monitor or OLED - but still usable.

Scrolling white text on a black background shows the usual small trails, but not noticeably worse than the last generation.

So the NotebookCheck review may have been due to unit-to-unit variation or something else. Another possibility is a difference between the base M3 model (which NotebookCheck reviewed) and the M3 Pro model I saw in the store, but that seems unlikely.

View attachment 2311033

(*) Technique: Open Safari, open Settings. Turn on 120Hz mode by turning on "Show features for web developers" under Advanced, then going to Feature Flags, searching for "60", and turning off "Prefer Page Rendering Updates near 60Hz". Navigate to https://blurbusters.com/category/testufo/ and click the button to open full screen. Set brightness to max. Take a photo or video with your iPhone while moving the phone from left to right to follow the UFOs so you get one in focus. If you have a camera app that gives you manual shutter speed control you could also keep the phone in one position, but you'd need to set the shutter speed pretty fast, e.g. 1/200s or faster.

If you are interested, just took a photo with my DSLR, shutter speed set to 1/4000 (fastest my Sony a6400 can do)
Technique as above
MacBook Pro 16 with M3 Pro

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

If you are interested, just took a photo with my DSLR, shutter speed set to 1/4000 (fastest my Sony a6400 can do)
Technique as above

Great job, very informative. We can see at most two ghosts, which suggests the response time is around 2/120 = 17ms (just a rough estimate, could easily be anywhere from 15 to 25ms). More evidence that there's something up with NotebookCheck's review.

It would also be really interesting to see a comparison against an M2 MBP, or even a 2019 MBP (notorious for poor response times).

 

[Ascn]

This is from my M1 Air, but keep in mind, the first row there is 60Hz
I think you can compare the first row here with the second row of the M3 Pro, right?
So i would say there is not a big difference.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

I think you can compare the first row here with the second row of the M3 Pro, right?
So i would say there is not a big difference.

Yes, and agreed. Looks about the same to me, maybe just slightly slower on the M3 but not by anywhere near as much as you'd think from the NotebookCheck review.

 

[EDS66]

Notebookcheck has also tested the 16”, seems to have slightly better response times vs M2:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...allenges-HX-CPUs-from-AMD-Intel.766414.0.html

Could be unit to unit variance. Not great for gaming but otherwise fine.

To my eye it's more than slightly better. I would say it's substantially better. White on black text scrolling is so much better; hardly any ghosting. Moving a window around with colorful icons in it shows virtually no trails or ghosting. The worst pixel response time that I've seen on an apple laptop was on the 2019 Intel 15 inch MacBook pro. That was truly horrible!

 

[BrightSilence]

Late to the party but, writing here from a M3 14" MBP (16/512) that I bought last week.

This is my first Apple device, let alone a computer, and I'm currently very satisfied with it. Well of course, except the pixel response times.

HOWTO: Pursuit Camera With Motion Tests

Introduction Written by Mark D. Rejhon. Updated 2017. Pursuit camera are used by display manufacturers for display testing (e.g. MotionMaster, and other MPRT pursuit cameras). This is a camera that follows on-screen motion. These cameras are extremely accurate at measuring motion blur & other...

blurbusters.com

Notice that it says, on the website:

"Set the camera exposure to 4 times the length of the monitor refresh. For 120Hz, use a 1/30sec camera exposure."

Which I did on my smartphone and oh dear God:



And another one with 1920 pixels per sec instead of 960 pixels per sec:



I could count around 8 UFOs here, which amounts to 8/120 = 67ms response time. Pretty much in line with what Notebookcheck has said, sadly.

It's a bummer because this machine gives me almost EVERYTHING I could've asked for in a laptop. Would I return it just because of this? No. But I also wonder who the hell at Apple thought this would be OK because it's clearly not for such an expensive device. I don't game on this machine and the smearing is noticeable even in daily use cases as basic as just scrolling text or moving windows around. Switching spaces is even worse because it's horizontal movement rather than vertical movement.

And guess what? It's completely fine when I set the display to 60 Hz instead of ProMotion:



7/60 = 12 ms response time. Pretty much in line with many other displays in the market and in fact it's even better than M2 MBA, which has 25 ms response time:

Apple MacBook Air M2 Entry Review – A very good, but too expensive daily MacBook

Notebookcheck reviews the new Apple MacBook Air M2 Midnight in the base-level spec with 8 GB RAM and 256 GB SSD storage.

www.notebookcheck.net

It REALLY is a bummer.

In the end, I REALLY hope that this is something they can fix with a software update but this is a display panel so... not going to get my hopes up too much.

 

[Ascn]

Late to the party but, writing here from a M3 14" MBP (16/512) that I bought last week.

This is my first Apple device, let alone a computer, and I'm currently very satisfied with it. Well of course, except the pixel response times.

HOWTO: Pursuit Camera With Motion Tests

Introduction Written by Mark D. Rejhon. Updated 2017. Pursuit camera are used by display manufacturers for display testing (e.g. MotionMaster, and other MPRT pursuit cameras). This is a camera that follows on-screen motion. These cameras are extremely accurate at measuring motion blur & other...

blurbusters.com

Notice that it says, on the website:

"Set the camera exposure to 4 times the length of the monitor refresh. For 120Hz, use a 1/30sec camera exposure."

Which I did on my smartphone and oh dear God:

View attachment 2330812

And another one with 1920 pixels per sec instead of 960 pixels per sec:

View attachment 2330813

I could count around 8 UFOs here, which amounts to 8/120 = 67ms response time. Pretty much in line with what Notebookcheck has said, sadly.

It's a bummer because this machine gives me almost EVERYTHING I could've asked for in a laptop. Would I return it just because of this? No. But I also wonder who the hell at Apple thought this would be OK because it's clearly not for such an expensive device. I don't game on this machine and the smearing is noticeable even in daily use cases as basic as just scrolling text or moving windows around. Switching spaces is even worse because it's horizontal movement rather than vertical movement.

And guess what? It's completely fine when I set the display to 60 Hz instead of ProMotion:

View attachment 2330816

7/60 = 12 ms response time. Pretty much in line with many other displays in the market and in fact it's even better than M2 MBA, which has 25 ms response time:

Apple MacBook Air M2 Entry Review – A very good, but too expensive daily MacBook

Notebookcheck reviews the new Apple MacBook Air M2 Midnight in the base-level spec with 8 GB RAM and 256 GB SSD storage.

www.notebookcheck.net

It REALLY is a bummer.

In the end, I REALLY hope that this is something they can fix with a software update but this is a display panel so... not going to get my hopes up too much.

7/60 is not 12ms, but 117ms.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

"Set the camera exposure to 4 times the length of the monitor refresh. For 120Hz, use a 1/30sec camera exposure."

That's great but this only applies when using a pursuit camera, i.e. when the camera is following the UFOs. Your exposures have a fixed camera position. So the numbers you got greatly exaggerate the response times.