M4: a great value buy?

[Bodhitree]

It’s interesting watching the video reviews come in of the new M4 and M4 Pro Macs, universally I am seeing the reviewers praising these machines as great performers, with a big jump over previous generations and as excellent value. Particularly the new base spec Mac Mini and the M4 Pro 14” MacBook Pro, and all of them call out the move to 16 GB RAM as an important turning point.

I was talking to my dad about the new M4 Mac Mini, and he was enthusiastic about wanting to switch from his 2019 Windows desktop after seeing the launch keynote. He liked the price, performance and longevity of the machine, after seeing his Windows desktop obsoleted by Microsoft’s Windows 11 upgrade handling. Learning a new OS didn’t fase him, especially after I said that all the preferences had been migrated to a new iPhone-like Settings app.

So I am wondering whether Apple is finally learning a few new tricks in its pricing structure and providing performant, high-quality hardware at fair prices. It’s a performance-for-money way of thinking, and being competitive with the PC market in all price brackets where they compete. Certainly this M4 wave of machines seems like a good time to buy a Mac if you’re in the market for a new computer.

 

[leman]

So I am wondering whether Apple is finally learning a few new tricks in its pricing structure and providing performant, high-quality hardware at fair prices. It’s a performance-for-money way of thinking, and being competitive with the PC market in all price brackets where they compete.

Is that really the case? They are using the same price points and upgrade structure as they always had. What makes M4 a great value proposition is the fact that Apple has updated the baseline configuration to be more on line with what the user expects, and their ability to outperform competitors when it comes to performance per watt. However, nothing fundamentally changes with M4 family. It uses the same strategy as all Macs in the last 15 years.

 

[Bodhitree]

I’m just reporting what I see, which is that quite a few reviewers are calling out the M4 as the best overall performers and a good value. I don’t remember seeing this for the M3 or earlier generations.

 

[Gnattu]

I’m just reporting what I see, which is that quite a few reviewers are calling out the M4 as the best overall performers and a good value. I don’t remember seeing this for the M3 or earlier generations.

Because 8GB is not a sane base config and when you want to pay like $300 more to even get a RAM size that makes browsers happy, the value is not that good

 

[throAU]

What has happened with the new mini is that the performance is much better than most things in PC land these days, and the GPU is actually reasonably competent.

I think this is more a sign of PC stagnation than Apple doing anything in particular, outside of the switch to making their own chips. Whilst PC land has been stuck with 5-15% performance every generation (and some of that is only under certain circumstances) - since the M1 apple has continually improved by more than that.

Memory upgrades and storage upgrades are still obscenely expensive, its just now the baseline spec is usable, so long as you upgrade the storage (IMHO).

 

[Bodhitree]

Memory upgrades and storage upgrades are still obscenely expensive, its just now the baseline spec is usable, so long as you upgrade the storage (IMHO).

My dad is planning to just pick up a 1 TB SSD external drive, fill it up with all the files he wants to keep from his Windows PC, and use that for most things rather than internal storage. His needs are pretty modest so that will work fine for him, and it’s not expensive.

He might pick up a cheap Microsoft Office for Mac license from one of the license-only sites, I’ve seen them go for 38 euros in the past.

 

[Bodhitree]

But I find it interesting, my dad usually buys cheap gear, his last PC was a 500 euro HP machine with an AMD Ryzen processor with integrated graphics, and now he is saying, for just 200 euros more I can have a top-of-the-line processor with decent all-around specs and high build quality.

He is not really into benchmarks and things, he looks superficially at Apple’s marketing materials and a few video’s I send him, and he understands that it’s a good deal, that the value proposition has shifted.

 

[leman]

I’m just reporting what I see, which is that quite a few reviewers are calling out the M4 as the best overall performers and a good value. I don’t remember seeing this for the M3 or earlier generations.

Oh, there is no doubt about any of that. What I meant to say that I don't believe Apple is doing anything special or different with M4 specifically. It just happens to deliver very good value for a number of reasons. However, there has been no change in strategy. Apple product design and marketing strategy essentially remained the same since Jobs has overhauled the Mac line around twenty years ago.

 

[leman]

But I find it interesting, my dad usually buys cheap gear, his last PC was a 500 euro HP machine with an AMD Ryzen processor with integrated graphics, and now he is saying, for just 200 euros more I can have a top-of-the-line processor with decent all-around specs and high build quality.

He is not really into benchmarks and things, he looks superficially at Apple’s marketing materials and a few video’s I send him, and he understands that it’s a good deal, that the value proposition has shifted.

I think it is great that Apple is now attracting customers like your dad. These are not the customers traditionally associated with Apple products.

 

[Bodhitree]

I think it is great that Apple is now attracting customers like your dad. These are not the customers traditionally associated with Apple products.

I think you are right. It’s an interesting contrast with my aunt, who got a new PC a few months ago to upgrade to Windows 11. She is not so computer literate as my father, and for her it was important that “things stay the same”. She paid a bit more, 800 euros for the new machine and 65 euros a year for Office 365.

But for people like my aunt, who can barely figure out her Microsoft account and how to interact with the cloud and relies heavily on Microsoft Office with it’s keyboard shortcuts from her years as a secretary, moving operating system is a big deal. Which is why I didn’t recommend her to get a Mac.

Price is important, everybody likes to get a good deal. In my family most people who don’t game have pretty basic computers, suitable for modest needs and bought at modest price points. I have a couple of cousins who do game, and who have heftier PCs.

Still the whole PC market is delicately poised, with Microsoft turning off the tap for updates to Windows 10, making it more difficult to update Windows 11 machines which aren’t officially supported, and talking about Windows 12 in a few years time. A lot of people are going to be looking to replace aging PCs and there are opportunities to convince people to buy a Mac by making it a good deal on a performance per cost level.

 

[leman]

But for people like my aunt, who can barely figure out her Microsoft account and how to interact with the cloud

I feel her pain. Ever since my university moved everything to Microsoft, administrative tasks became a nightmare. One Drive and Outlook are some of the worst examples of software engineering I have seen.

 

[narc1981]

I feel her pain. Ever since my university moved everything to Microsoft, administrative tasks became a nightmare. One Drive and Outlook are some of the worst examples of software engineering I have seen.

Hi, which issues did you have in particular?

 

[throAU]

I think it is great that Apple is now attracting customers like your dad. These are not the customers traditionally associated with Apple products.

I’ll say this as someone who was fairly unimpressed by Apple as a pc user back in the day (20 years ago);

iTunes on pc and quicktime player on pc in the early 2000s probably did more to damage apples reputation amongst potential customers than anything else.

Apples pc software was TRASH, and it’s the first contact many potential customers had with Apple.

The iPhone changed that and showed non Mac customers what Apple was all about.

 

[throAU]

But for people like my aunt, who can barely figure out her Microsoft account and how to interact with the cloud and relies heavily on Microsoft Office with it’s keyboard shortcuts from her years as a secretary, moving operating system is a big deal. Which is why I didn’t recommend her to get a Mac.

For the most part replace control with command and short cut wise she’s good to go.

Apples new tips app is also great.

 

[leman]

Hi, which issues did you have in particular?

Some pain points from the top of my head:

- Outlook for Web is very slow to open and has frequent outages. Email search rarely works. When composing emails the cursor can jumps around and insert text at random places. Working with attachments is very painful because Outlook insists on displaying them using its own renderers (which has troubles rendering even the simplest PDFs). There are all these social network-like features that introduce a lot of clutter and make the information difficult to parse
- The landing page for the documents is messy and difficult to organize. It is not possible to download the files from the landing page, one has to go to the OneDrive files view and search for the file again
- Web Office apps are almost unusable due to the limited functionality and poor performance
- I find the interface to be cluttered and difficult to navigate. There are multiple views that do similar things but behave differently. Options and tools are hard to find.

 

[TechnoMonk]

One of my client forces me to use Microsoft teams/outlook and one drive. What a mess, I started charging more for that mess.
I am planning to get a base model in Costco, for 579 bucks and a file backup/utility machine it’s great deal for small compact device.

 

[Tago]

It’s interesting watching the video reviews come in of the new M4 and M4 Pro Macs, universally I am seeing the reviewers praising these machines as great performers, with a big jump over previous generations and as excellent value. Particularly the new base spec Mac Mini and the M4 Pro 14” MacBook Pro, and all of them call out the move to 16 GB RAM as an important turning point.

I was talking to my dad about the new M4 Mac Mini, and he was enthusiastic about wanting to switch from his 2019 Windows desktop after seeing the launch keynote. He liked the price, performance and longevity of the machine, after seeing his Windows desktop obsoleted by Microsoft’s Windows 11 upgrade handling. Learning a new OS didn’t fase him, especially after I said that all the preferences had been migrated to a new iPhone-like Settings app.

So I am wondering whether Apple is finally learning a few new tricks in its pricing structure and providing performant, high-quality hardware at fair prices. It’s a performance-for-money way of thinking, and being competitive with the PC market in all price brackets where they compete. Certainly this M4 wave of machines seems like a good time to buy a Mac if you’re in the market for a new computer.

Being a budget guy, I consider the base Mini great value for money. It`s not a new trick really, but with the M-series they are able to get entry performance which actually will do the job. The 16 gb ram is a necessity and will become important when AI gets better integrated in the OS and properly utilized by apps. The apps and the OS will take advantage of the ram needed if available, but I would assume it becomes somewhat dynamic, It won`t overwhelm the hardware demanding resources not there.

Over time, people would probably have a tad more than the previous entry 8gb available projecting today`s situation to the future.

As far as transition goes, there are a few cheat sheet apps to download, making aid easily available. Have a old friend in need for a new computer, and the Mini would no doubt be a very very good option for him. But he is not interested in learning something new, thus I just outlined the option and benefits without pushing at all. No doubt the base Mini would be way better in terms of hardware/resources.

I`d argue the hardware is pretty darn great, and it provides performance and value for money.

 

[Tago]

I feel her pain. Ever since my university moved everything to Microsoft, administrative tasks became a nightmare. One Drive and Outlook are some of the worst examples of software engineering I have seen.

It kind of reminds me of old days. I was asked to make Lotus/Domino penetrate a specific market, and I just couldn`t accept the position. I knew what a nightmare that solution was in terms of user support the strain it would put on the IT departments. Huge costs for nothing but trouble. Complexity for the sake of complexity is what I associate with the MS integrated solutions for edu too.

 

[Bodhitree]

Being a budget guy, I consider the base Mini great value for money. It`s not a new trick really, but with the M-series they are able to get entry performance which actually will do the job.

I think it’s great that there is this option. It’s not a real bargain-basement product like a 375-450 euro PC, it’s a little more expensive, but it really competes well in the low-price competent computer price bracket. It is an excellent computing experience -- fast, great build quality, all the benefits of having a Mac, enough ram and storage in the base model, and a tremendous value.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

Is that really the case? They are using the same price points and upgrade structure as they always had. What makes M4 a great value proposition is the fact that Apple has updated the baseline configuration to be more on line with what the user expects, and their ability to outperform competitors when it comes to performance per watt. However, nothing fundamentally changes with M4 family. It uses the same strategy as all Macs in the last 15 years.

It may be wrong to say that nothing fundamentally changes with the M4 family. What changes is great value. Each generation has provided more value but the M4 in particular seems to be a significant value proposition.

 

[Bodhitree]

It may be wrong to say that nothing fundamentally changes with the M4 family. What changes is great value. Each generation has provided more value but the M4 in particular seems to be a significant value proposition.

That’s right. It’s adding more value by adding more power and functionality. Those people who don’t particularly care for their computing experience can buy a Core i3 or similar box at rock-bottom prices, but for people who want a machine that will last a while and can spend just a little more, the M4 Mini is great value.

I think the M4 family has reached a tipping point where the value compared to the Windows market is now so substantial that it’s going to move buyers to get a Mac.

 

[Tago]

I think it’s great that there is this option. It’s not a real bargain-basement product like a 375-450 euro PC, it’s a little more expensive, but it really competes well in the low-price competent computer price bracket. It is an excellent computing experience -- fast, great build quality, all the benefits of having a Mac, enough ram and storage in the base model, and a tremendous value.

I have had the occasional out of the shelf budget laptop and a couple of micro wintels, and perhaps more importantly, I`ve done the clean-up those need after a little while (for friends). In my experience they are built to last 2-3 years, they are ok for a while, then the experience gets worse.

So, my take on that consumer market is to never go there, and when my friends have done so, I always advised them to choose a much better spec 2nd hand pc for a little more. I always picked Thinkpads T/P 14 until I went for mac, and there were a couple of good reasons for that. A well specced one lasts about 10 years, there are spares available for quite old ones (I can dismantle and reassemble them myself and there are full manuals available from Lenovo), there is a good service structure, and they are very reliable. They can also be sold when I`m done with them. The total economy of those are better than for the consumer/disposable budget machines. AND they run Linux very well.

In my opinion the worst thing I can do as a budget man is to buy cheap, never worked for me. I spend a little more and save money in the long run.

For Macs, the M-series changed things a bit in terms of resale values, and for the Mini, the M4 does that to the M1/M2`s. I am willing to pay considerable less for a M1/M2 after the arrival of M4, and nothing for a Intel Mini (or any intel Mac). The excemption was if I were buying to run Linux.

Being pragmatic and strategic about the ownership and timing of replacements, I`d argue a base M4 Mini probably will cost me abt 200 USD for about 2+ to 3 years of ownership, it will be easy to sell. A 3-500 USD budget PC i would write off in about 3 years, 4 tops as the low specs will not keep up with development. AI will enforce a lot of budget pc`s to be replaced. IF they don`t disintegrate for other reasons. Mini ownership will cost the same or more likely less, and you`ll get way better hardware and specs.

I always ment that laptops only are advantageous IF moving around with them, I stay at one spot, and have no need to carry it around. Will get better performance for the same price or lower price for the same spec if I go desktop for Macs.

If you do a little exersise and pick the ideally specced Macbook/pro for you, and find the similar spec/performance in a Mini/Studio you will probably save around 1.100-1.200 USD. If not moving around anyway, that`s a no brainer, so the performance/price/value is there

 

[Allen_Wentz]

I have had the occasional out of the shelf budget laptop and a couple of micro wintels, and perhaps more importantly, I`ve done the clean-up those need after a little while (for friends). In my experience they are built to last 2-3 years, they are ok for a while, then the experience gets worse.

So, my take on that consumer market is to never go there, and when my friends have done so, I always advised them to choose a much better spec 2nd hand pc for a little more. I always picked Thinkpads T/P 14 until I went for mac, and there were a couple of good reasons for that. A well specced one lasts about 10 years, there are spares available for quite old ones (I can dismantle and reassemble them myself and there are full manuals available from Lenovo), there is a good service structure, and they are very reliable. They can also be sold when I`m done with them. The total economy of those are better than for the consumer/disposable budget machines. AND they run Linux very well.

In my opinion the worst thing I can do as a budget man is to buy cheap, never worked for me. I spend a little more and save money in the long run.

For Macs, the M-series changed things a bit in terms of resale values, and for the Mini, the M4 does that to the M1/M2`s. I am willing to pay considerable less for a M1/M2 after the arrival of M4, and nothing for a Intel Mini (or any intel Mac). The excemption was if I were buying to run Linux.

Being pragmatic and strategic about the ownership and timing of replacements, I`d argue a base M4 Mini probably will cost me abt 200 USD for about 2+ to 3 years of ownership, it will be easy to sell. A 3-500 USD budget PC i would write off in about 3 years, 4 tops as the low specs will not keep up with development. AI will enforce a lot of budget pc`s to be replaced. IF they don`t disintegrate for other reasons. Mini ownership will cost the same or more likely less, and you`ll get way better hardware and specs.

I always ment that laptops only are advantageous IF moving around with them, I stay at one spot, and have no need to carry it around. Will get better performance for the same price or lower price for the same spec if I go desktop for Macs.

If you do a little exersise and pick the ideally specced Macbook/pro for you, and find the similar spec/performance in a Mini/Studio you will probably save around 1.100-1.200 USD. If not moving around anyway, that`s a no brainer, so the performance/price/value is there

Note that a MBP also adds its own very high quality display and speakers to any setup, which is significant value add that Minis and Studios do not provide. And mobility is big value add even if only used once in a while.

 

[Tago]

Note that a MBP also adds its own very high quality display and speakers to any setup, which is significant value add that Minis and Studios do not provide. And mobility is big value add even if only used once in a while.

If mobility is what the user need, MB/MBP is the better choice obviously. And coming from Thinkpads, I certainly love Mac displays.

Then again, there are considerable tradeoffs to achieve mobility. People are used to it now (as I was), and the importance of mobility for development of technology is huge. Won`t be a performance Mini/Studio without the constraints MBP`s have had to conquer to become great tools.

If you are happy with the weight, screen, keyboard and need to get a better spec, you will have to replace the screen/keyboard and so if all that you want is a better performance. With a desktop you can keep the goodies and just upgrade the performance. I know you know, thus just for the sake of presenting the case in general

I would argue that a user of desktops sticking to that for 10-15-20 years would have way better performance for the same cost or way lower costs for the same performance. People have different needs and different preferences and adjust their "workflow" accordingly, but I have always seen laptops/mbp`s as a lot of compromises to achieve that mobility.

Probably, the rational approach is: Use/own desktop if you can, use portable if you have to.

 

[Apple_Robert]

I don’t think one can or should put any real stock in early YT reviewers as most of them are nothing but paid Apple mouthpieces.

In regards to the aspect of “great buy,” I believe that that is subjective and outside of tech places like MR, that term is not practically used when it comes to the average consumer. Prices for MBP are still more than what most people would pay for a computer. I do think the upgrade with the base RAM does entice Apple enthusiasts to a potential buy or upgrade.