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Sarpanch

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 12, 2013
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SoCal
I have a M4 Mac Mini and ran into a strange limitation that wouldn’t allow 3 external bus-powered Thunderbolt SSDs to be connected to the Thunderbolt 4 ports. 2 drives work great, but the 3rd is not even recognized by the system. The issue is not specific to any of the 3 ports or drives, it’s always the last one that fails to connect. Surprisingly, 2 Thunderbolt drives + 1 USB-C drive work okay, which indicates that the Mac Mini might be downgrading the 3rd port to USB-C.

Does anyone know what could be the reason? It’s a bit misleading to advertise 3 TB4 ports if only 2 are fully functional concurrently.

Additional reports that I could find are linked below:


 
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Could be a port power issue, and that 3xTB devices are drawing too much power, so it is degrading the interface.

My guess it is negotiating TB, failing on power, re-negotiating USB, succeeding, and so you don't get the power message. If the device was TB only and could not fall back to USB, I'll bet you'd get the insufficient port power message.

 
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My 4K LG monitor (which, of course, has its own power supply) counts as a TB device as far as my M1 Mac Studio is concerned. I get the monitor and one TB external drive working when I plug the monitor and two TB external drives (in Acasis TBU405 Air enclosures) into three of the four ports on the back. I don't get any system message about the drive that doesn't connect.

In my case I got a Kensington TB4 hub to get all three working.
 
Other than for travel, I only buy drives with dedicated power supplies. I’d rather blow one of those, a sub-$15 replacement, than blow the power supply in my computer. 3 bus powered drives at the same time, no thanks.
 
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Could be a port power issue, and that 3xTB devices are drawing too much power, so it is degrading the interface.
In my setup it is. And I’m wondering if not all three Thunderbolt ports support a full 15W. Maybe it’s just due to power consumption spikes? Anyway… I have two USB 3.1 (USB-C) NVMe enclosures and a USB 3.1 (USB-A) 2.5-inch drive connected via USB4 hub to one rear port. The USB-A drive is only on/powered briefly as it's my once a week Time Machine backup — I do have other backups. I have one OWC 1M2 connected to another of the Thunderbolt ports and recently added a second 1M2, which I connected to the last available rear port. When I have all (four) of them connected (mounted or not), the USB 3.1 drives will randomly disconnect (i.e., “Disk not ejected properly” warning). The USB over current alert did appear once or twice though not every unexpected unmounting instance. Each of the USB 3.1 drives is reportedly using its ~900mA allotment. I can’t find power information for the Thunderbolt (1M2) drives.

So, as of now, I connect the 1M2s as needed. Inconvenient indeed but better than drives dropping out randomly. Maybe I’ll eventually buy a powered hub for the USB 3.1 devices.
 
@MacCheetah3 The problem is exacerbated by using the USB4 hub, as all 3 USB devices attached to it are controlled by the USB controller in the Mac.
If it was a Thunderbolt 3 dock then all attached drives would be controlled by the dock's USB controller, and powered from the dock.
I know that's probably a different user experience than what you want/have, but that works around the Mac's sensitivity issues to USB attached/controlled SSDs/HDs.

I also suspect that the instantaneous 'inrush current' for USB4 bus-powered SSDs may be the reason there is a limit to using bus-powered devices on all the TB4 ports...
Another AS Mac 'sensitivity'...?
 
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@MacCheetah3 The problem is exacerbated by using the USB4 hub, as all 3 USB devices attached to it are controlled by the USB controller in the Mac.
If it was a Thunderbolt 3 dock then all attached drives would be controlled by the dock's USB controller, and powered from the dock.
I know that's probably a different user experience than what you want/have, but that works around the Mac's sensitivity issues to USB attached/controlled SSDs/HDs.
The problem (I have) with a “dock” is they are overkill for my needs. I likely wouldn’t use even half of the ports they provide. So, the additional size and cost is just wasteful.

Something like this probably would have been a better choice as it does allow for external power:


I was trying to keep the cost and bulk sensibly low.

I could also connect one of the USB 3 drives to one of the front ports — assuming that would bypass the problem/limit.
 
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@MacCheetah3 The problem with that OWC hub (which is actually a dock but with multiple TB4 output ports in 'hub' configuration) is that because it uses the TB4 protocol it doesn't have a USB controller, as it allows the Mac’s USB Host controller to 'tunnel' through to its ports.
So any problems the Mac perceives with attached USB 3.* SSDs still causes the disconnections, errors etc
Edit: (It would work to provide power for the USB4 enclosures, but more than one would have to share bandwidth if used simultaneously)

But for USB3.* SSDs it’s only in a TB3 dock that the Mac passes through PCIe signals to a USB controller in the dock, and because the Mac isn't communicating directly to those USB devices attached to the dock, it doesn't see any problems, so everything is stable and remains connected (with well-functioning devices...)
 
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Thanks everyone, for sharing a lot of valuable info. I spoke with Apple support and one of the techs hinted at a power draw limitation in the board itself. He could not explain why, nor confirm if this limitation exists on the new Thunderbolt 5 Macs or not.

Second, I just got a Thunderbolt Display (Dell U2724DE) and can confirm that the Mac Mini works just fine with the monitor + 2 external bus powered thunderbolt SSDs connected directly to the Mini’s T4 ports + 1 external thunderbolt SSD connected to the monitor. The write speed marginally reduces on the SSD connected to the monitor (~2100 MB/s) but it’s plenty fast for my use case
 
Quick update: I purchase the new M4 Max Studio and unfortunately, it has the same 2 external thunderbolt drive limitation as the M4 Mac Mini.
That’s a bummer.

Fortunate for me, I did find a fairly reliable setup. I stashed the USB4 hub in a drawer, only to use it if I need access to USB A devices.

TB-USB4-NVMe-enclosures_Mac-mini-M4-Pro.png

The (highlighted) second/middle port is connected to:

USB-Drives.png

The SSK enclosure is connected to one of the front ports.
From what I can tell, it uses the JMicron JMS583 controller.

The other front port is left available for on-demand (e.g., thumb drive, iDevice updating, external microphone).

To my recollection, I’ve only had one dropout since changing to this config/setup. Knock on wood, hopefully, things stay fairly stable.
 
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So regardless of whether it is desktop or laptop, M4 with Thunderbolt 4 or M4 Pro with Thunderbolt 5, there is a less than 15W limitation on the power that each port can provide? And only 2 ports can do that?
 
Quick update: I purchase the new M4 Max Studio and unfortunately, it has the same 2 external thunderbolt drive limitation as the M4 Mac Mini.

Wow that is disappointing and would seem to violate Thunderbolt 4+ specs. At that level of hardware and with a 480W power supply, I expected it to fully support 4 external thunderbolt 3/4/5 SSD on the rear Type-C ports.

Have you filed a report with Apple or confirmed with them that this is an expected limitation?
 
You can't change the laws of physics...
If the USB power standard for non-smart devices wasn't capped at the legacy rating of 5V 3A then greater power could more easily be distributed, using the much more flexible USB PD standard at up to 20+V.

FFC ribbon cable Pitch 0.5mm
Copper trace thickness <0.7mm
Current rating: 0.5A DC
Voltage rating: up to 50V....

StudioUSB-C.jpg


Additionally the multilayer (10?) logic board has to be engineered to distribute 6A to each pair of ports, which put simplistically means traces of 6/0.5 =12 mm...

Obviously that isn't reasonable for their to be multiple pairs of 12mm power distribution traces in a logic board the size of the Mac Studio/Mini/MBP, so there are likely to be compromises... 😕

Workaround: Only use a couple of ports for 5A bus powered devices, as and when they are needed.
For regular permanently attached storage or outboard signal processing equipment use self-powered enclosures.
 
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would seem to violate Thunderbolt 4+ specs.
IIRC, the "specification" (it's really just marketing, there is no standard as in IEEE or ANSI) is for a TB4 or TB5 port. Power delivery for an accessory is specified to meet 15W, but that does not mean one can chain a bunch of TB devices (e.g. using unpowered hubs) and get 15W to each.

Still, this issue seems to have been around for quite some time. If you have a power-hungry accessory (like an SSD, not a keyboard) best use only one per port. And don't expect all your ports to simultaneously be able to provide max power.
 
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IIRC, the "specification" (it's really just marketing, there is no standard as in IEEE or ANSI) is for a TB4 or TB5 port. Power delivery for an accessory is specified to meet 15W, but that does not mean one can chain a bunch of TB devices (e.g. using unpowered hubs) and get 15W to each.

I don't think the issue in this case is the desire to chain devices but rather that each port be able to support 1 x 15W device. My understanding from people's experiences here is that Apple is providing 2x15W across their 4xType-C rear connectors.

Still, this issue seems to have been around for quite some time. If you have a power-hungry accessory (like an SSD, not a keyboard) best use only one per port.

I think that is what people are doing here.

And don't expect all your ports to simultaneously be able to provide max power.

It's this issue where I think the confusion is coming in. I think -- especially on the Studio -- people expected to be able to use each port to its fullest simultaneously. That would mean 4 devices each on their own port each be able to draw up to 15W.
 
You can't change the laws of physics...

I don't know if it's a law of physics issue but understand there could be engineering challenges. In my mind, there are a few issues:
1. Since power is part of the connection negotiation, each port can provide the required power by itself, and there is more than enough system power in a Studio, could this be a software/firmware issue that could be resolved in a future update (perhaps the firmware is assuming the hardware limits of a MacBook or Mini but actually the Studio hardware can handle more)?

2. If this is a hardware/electrical engineering limitation, what were the design trade-offs that necessitated it? Why is this system outfitted with a 480W power supply if even its max configuration only consumes 270W internally?

3. Why doesn't Apple document this limit publicly? The spec pages for each Mac documents all the permutations of monitor resolutions but says nothing about limits on total Thunderbolt power usage even though I'd say such power limits are less intuitive for most people. How would any typical buyer know if it is 15W or 30W or 60W and/or if the front ports count?

Obviously that isn't reasonable for their to be multiple pairs of 12mm power distribution traces in a logic board the size of the Mac Studio/Mini/MBP, so there are likely to be compromises... 😕

Trust your electrical engineering estimates but still not convinced the issue is physics. We know the system has 480W of continuous power and we know it can provide 15W (5V x 3A) to any of the 4 rear port. Plus it appears that it can provide 2x15W to any two ports (it doesn't appear to matter which two so there doesn't appear to be any pairing/shared constraint like there was on the Intel-based Macs). From that I would conclude the traces/wiring are thick enough to support 3A to each port but they are sharing a 30W power bus (or perhaps 37.5 or 40W bus since 2xTB + 1xUSB also seems to be supported) if this is indeed a hardware/design limitation.

If so, it's unclear to me why they wired it that way rather than giving each port its own 3A power connection. I am sure Apple engineers know what they are doing and all else being equal would have preferred not to have this limitation so guessing there was a trade-off that had to be made within the other engineering constraints (e.g. time-to-delivery, etc).

Also note that there are single PCIe 4.0 cards that can support 4xNVMe drives and most desktop PCs support multiple PCIe cards each drawing 25W (or optionally 75W) not to mention allowing for auxiliary power outside the bus. So I have to believe it's possible to route 4x15W to 4xType-C ports though appreciate perhaps not easy given other system constraints.

Workaround: Only use a couple of ports for 5A bus powered devices, as and when they are needed.
For regular permanently attached storage or outboard signal processing equipment use self-powered enclosures.

Agree that's the workaround for now (and probably foreseeably). It does mean a user has to buy two TB5 hubs ($200-250/each) for an otherwise suboptimal solution -- one that aggravates the octopus problem of lots of external devices now with extra docks and cables each adding another point of failure. Not the worst problem but I'd be disappointed if I spent $10K on a system that couldn't power four external SSD without keeping several hubs strewn about just to power them.
 
[...] and would seem to violate Thunderbolt 4+ specs.
IIRC, the "specification" (it's really just marketing, there is no standard as in IEEE or ANSI) is for a TB4 or TB5 port. Power delivery for an accessory is specified to meet 15W, but that does not mean one can chain a bunch of TB devices (e.g. using unpowered hubs) and get 15W to each.

Still, this issue seems to have been around for quite some time. If you have a power-hungry accessory (like an SSD, not a keyboard) best use only one per port. And don't expect all your ports to simultaneously be able to provide max power.
From a related discussion:
OWC_TAL said:
FYI those 0GB enclosures are not Thunderbolt certified. They legally cannot be called TB5 enclosures. Most SSDs currently draw more power than the TB bus can supply- it is likely that you may run into issues with those enclosures that are currently breaking/bending the rules.
OWC_TAL said:
No, you cannot have a 0GB certified enclosure per the Thunderbolt specification rules. Intel will not certify such a device.
 
OWC_TAL said:
FYI those 0GB enclosures are not Thunderbolt certified. They legally cannot be called TB5 enclosures. Most SSDs currently draw more power than the TB bus can supply- it is likely that you may run into issues with those enclosures that are currently breaking/bending the rules.

Good point -- do we know if this limitation with more than two Thunderbolt 3/4/5 SSD on the Studio would be alleviated by certified Thunderbolt 3/4/5 SSD (i.e. that ship as a complete package such as OWC's Envoy Ultra)? And/or do we know how much power the SSDs that people are having problems with are drawing? I estimate the power draw of a Arcasis TBU405 with a WD SN850X at less than 15W but I have no way of measuring that (and appreciate its only Thunderbolt 3 and probably not certified as that either).
 
@bzgnyc2 : You summarized the issue and behavior really well! I did report this to Apple. The 1st support engineer indicated this might be a power draw limitation on the board itself but hesitated to document anything formally. The other support techs wouldn’t even acknowledge the issue, just kept reading the specs and asked me to exchange the product. Btw, I have support cases open from 2020 (USB speed) that i never got any updates for.

As for Thunderbolt certified devices and the 15W power draw limit, I had 3 OWC Envoy Express enclosures. Apparently, these were the 1st Thunderbolt 3 certified bus powered devices. Do all 3 connect at the same time? Nope. The Acasis Air enclosure exhibits the same behavior as it is Thunderbolt only (no USB fallback).
 
@bzgnyc2 : You summarized the issue and behavior really well! I did report this to Apple. The 1st support engineer indicated this might be a power draw limitation on the board itself but hesitated to document anything formally. The other support techs wouldn’t even acknowledge the issue, just kept reading the specs and asked me to exchange the product. Btw, I have support cases open from 2020 (USB speed) that i never got any updates for.

As for Thunderbolt certified devices and the 15W power draw limit, I had 3 OWC Envoy Express enclosures. Apparently, these were the 1st Thunderbolt 3 certified bus powered devices. Do all 3 connect at the same time? Nope. The Acasis Air enclosure exhibits the same behavior as it is Thunderbolt only (no USB fallback).

Thanks Sarpanch for sharing those updates. Unfortunately that looks to be more evidence it's a hardware design limitation.

At the very least hopefully you and others with similar issues can at least get Apple to document the limitations of their Thunderbolt implementations. That is similar to how Apple documents the supported combinations of screen resolutions on the spec pages, they should document the supported combinations of power draw on their Thunderbolt buses.
 
In his latest video, Dr. Wiggo tested an Ivanky TB 5 dock:


In which he mentions that it does not lead to the dropping of drives. He conjectures that is due to the beefy power supply. Another company's dock he uses does randomly disconnect drives if too much is drawn.
 
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