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Dr. McKay

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jan 20, 2010
861
116
Belgium, Europe
I have a 14" MacBook Pro M1 that I use for just about everything : Adobe Suite, MS Office, Mail, etc. but also for music production (Reaper and Bitwig).

I would like to buy a dedicated Mac for just music production and since I already have a Dell ultra wide monitor, I'm thinking of a Mac mini.
Question is, do I get a regular M4 or the M4 Pro ?

I would like to get as much life out of it as possible. The M4 tops out at 32Gb of RAM (same amount that I have in my MacBook Pro), the M4 Pro I can get with 64Gb but that will cost almost double.

The regular M4 probably already destroys my M1 Pro performance wise but that 32gb RAM limit is probably its Achille’s heel…

I know it's a question that has been asked before but is there anyone here that has either of these Macs and could give me some feedback ?

Thanks !
 
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I needed the 32Gb of RAM because I run Parallels with Win 11 Pro, need it for a client of mine.

In music production, I use quite a lot of VST’s in Reaper, mainly for orchestral and cinematic music, some video scoring as well. In Bitwig, I like to use a lot of virtual synths.

It’s true that I haven’t had any issues yet with 32Gb of RAM but that may change in the future. I probably answered my own question more or less but maybe there are people here who are also into orchestral and have a Mini with 32Gb.

If I were a beat maker, which luckily I’m not, I could probably get away with 16 Gb…
 
I was doing as much as I wanted for years with Logic Pro using a 2008 entry-level Mac mini.

Unless you're nearing hundreds or thousands of tracks, or using software that's less native to Mac and relies heavily on the CPU or something, I'd say the M4 mini is already way more than sufficient for just music production.
 
32GB in a base Mini M4 will be excellent for Reaper, and Cubase. A TB4 NVMe external enclosure for samples and song files, and off you go. Soundcard, plug that into the Mini’s front USB-C.
Avoid the Pro M4 mini, as the heat-factor can spool that fan up to audible nuisance levels. Definitely not for music production.
The base Mini I have is silent so far.
Price-wise, once you start speccing up a Pro/Max to 64GB, then it’s better to consider an open-box/pre-loved Studio M4 model. Then the memory speed will come into play with the multi Orchestral processing demands.
We now have M3 Studio Ultras dipping below $3000, with 96GB onboard. Well worth considering if Orchestral is your main thing. The Ultra is very suited to multi-instrumentation, and quickly streaming 100 individual tracks of samples to RAM, from an external TB4/TB5 NVMe.
But, for $1000, you can have the base Mini with 32GB, with a fast TB4 enclosure, if you shop around - and it will leave the M1 standing.
Lots of used bargains around. Many hardly used, by people who couldn’t get on with Mac OS.
 
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My decision in the end, was to buy the base 256/16 Mini M4, and see how far it would take me.
I love my VST soft-synths, and sample-players, but I have limited my stuff now to the BFD drums, and lots of Abbey Road plugins from Waves. Then it’s guitar and real bass, with vocals. Maybe some keyboards, but I detest presets, and prefer to Synthesize from the ground up.
All of my other samples are individual ambient field-recordings and sound-effects.
I considered East West Symphonic for a while, and would have bought an M3 Ultra Studio for that, but I want to get back to my guitar thing, and the base Mini is perfect.
An M3 would see me disappear for 10 years in a steep learning-curve, and come back as bloody Vangelis or something.

My current projects are emulating Concert Harp style with clean guitars open-tuned. I fly in edited solos from other previous recordings, and this ethereal thing pleases me no end.
The Mini M4 isn’t taxed at all by my Waves stuff, and I have “Chambers” running on most tracks, including individual drums - whereas my older 2015 Intel MacBook would struggle very quickly.
My approach to imaging is important. I want every source in stereo, with its own width and ambient field - positioned at the required depth. Chambers is ideal to get that, with sensible proximity-based EQ.
Every source then has it’s own secondary reverb, panned elsewhere, so note-ends dance around in the image. My sound-system is high-level professional, and so far, the Mini M4 has met all my plugin demands very well, albeit with say only 24 tracks of audio, and 8 tracks of sub-grouped drums.
I’m not sure the M1 could have even handled the complete Drumkit I use, as each drum has its own compressor and Chambers, with EQ, and added reverb. The M4 flies.
I have no doubt I could easily add a full chamber Orchestra to proceedings, and take a ‘mixed’ stereo feed from that plugin. But if I wanted to treat the imaging of the individual instruments the same way I do with my other tracks - then the base M4 would not be sufficient. Widening memory bandwidth, and speeding up RAM, TB5 externals, more performance cores - only the Studio Max or Ultra would let me work freely with Orchestral, to my particular imaging ethos.
Up to you to decide your depth of skill/commitment. I would say it takes a year just to learn how to articulate a VST violin properly, plus EQ and ambience learning-curves. Then we have Viola, Cello, Bass, etc. Then Brass, Woodwinds, Percussion. A daunting task, which few will succeed in, if at all.
I personally don’t have that required 10 years left in me, but were I writing full Orchestral scores, then I’d figure out something. But standards must be kept high, and starting from scratch and working alone is a young man’s game.
If you currently don’t know the highest note on a Bb Clarinet - then forget the idea completely, and use a ‘lesser’ Orchestral emulation, or get A.I. to process it for you. I wouldn’t myself, but then I expect people to scratch the surface of my solo work, and discover huge depth. Took me a lifetime to get here. I won’t be compromising my work with half-baked Orchestral emulations, due to lack of time on the genre. Has to be 100%, or forget it. But then - I don’t use presets in my work either. All sounds are built from the ground up here.
I certainly didn’t want to be clearly identified as a user of anything, if you understand that.

So, single-core speed is superb on the base Mini, and Reaper, and Cubase will map fully over the Mini’s 10 cores very well.
Incredible machine for the money. I do feel 16GB is a limiting factor, so 24GB or 32GB are a sensible choice, especially if you want lots of tracks.

Do feel free to PM me with any questions.
I’ve been music computing for many years now, and there’s not much I’ve missed.
 
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One important point…

The Mini M4 10-cores utilise well in Reaper and Cubase, but once you start increasing core-count, these programs can’t efficiently utilise all cores, and fall very short of their potential.
People have some degree of success using Audio Gridder, or turning off Core 1, but just be aware the problem is there.
Without a major re-write of audio-engines - the problem will remain, and Steinberg are especially heads in the sand on this debacle.
So if you want to use more cores than a base Mini, then Linux is your best bet for full core utilisation - and that comes with it’s own steep learning-curve.
 
@Solarflares
Wow, quite the feedback. I’m afraid you do way more advanced stuff than I do. I’m impressed !

Nevertheless, I feel that 32 gb might become the limiting factor a few years down the line so I’m leaning towards the M4 Pro (taking into account that I might use it for more than just music production).

Been looking around, also at refurbished models from Apple.

Speccing out the M4 Pro with 64Gb of RAM and 1Tb ssd comes close to 3000 euros ( I live in Belgium but I assume it’s more or less the same in US dollars).
Found a refurbished Mac Studio M1 Ultra on the Belgian Apple site, also with 64Gb of RAM and 1Tb ssd for around the same price ; a Mac Studio M4 Max is 500 euros more, same RAM, same SSD. Mac Studio M3 Ultra goes for crazy prices…

So, for around 2900 - 3000 euros : M4 Pro or M1 Ultra ?
 
Quick reply. More later when I’ve had a coffee. Just got out of bed.
Those two machines are the ones you must not buy! Definitely no way.
If you stretch to 3000 euros, I have good news.

Well, don’t rush, enjoy your coffee. It’s close to midnight where I live so I’m going to bed ;)

Will check in tomorrow…
 
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Go pro.

If you’re feeling the pinch with 32 GB today things will not be getting better from here.


Also buy now. Like… today. I believe that apple’s memory supply contracts expire in January and with the RAM price/supply issues recently there’s a good chance that Apple will be forced to raise prices with their next supply contract.

This will impact you more than most as you’re going for a larger RAM capacity.
 
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Pro runs the hottest of all models, and requires a few expensive leaps in spec tiers to get 64GB.
For music production, the likelihood of idle fan-noise makes the Pro a non-starter.

If I had to have a Pro, I would ensure that all peripherals were self-powered, and would run a 21/9 monitor at 1440p 34” at 60hz. That should keep it at its coolest, and has the best screen-resolution for DAWs.

Music production requires utter silence in the room. Preferably black-hole silence, like my stuff.
I don’t think a Pro can give you that. Apple know it’s a gateway drug to a Studio Max or Ultra, so it’s cooling is under-designed. Memory bandwidth is poor for what it is.

You can think of it like this…
Once a fan spools up in your system, under load, then you are in a damage-limitation situation. The unit won’t get much hotter, but under load it won’t cool down either. For a music producer, knowing this ‘ceiling’ is trial and error, and definitely a non-productive aspect, if you have to mentally set fan-onset limits all the time.
The answer is to have a machine that has huge overhead, a bigger box and PSU, with silent running as it’s selling point.
Which would bring us straight to a 16-core Max Studio M4 - conveniently at 3000 euros right now, which is the top end of the OP’s budget. A 64GB/1TB machine as standard, with monster memory bandwidth.
 
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Pro runs the hottest of all models, and requires a few leaps in spec tiers to get 64GB.
For music production, the likelihood of idle fan-noise makes the Pro a non-starter.

I have an m4 max in my 14” laptop and barely ever hear the fan (it only ever runs when pushing the GPU, which music production is not likely to be doing)

Go test maybe? The mini has better cooling than a laptop.
 
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I will say right now, that I saw an M3 Ultra Studio on eBay UK, for £3000/3,300 Euro.
They are currently £3499/3,900 Euro new. That is the current top machine for silent music-making.
In Jan/Feb we may well see more used M3 Ultras coming on sale, at around £3000.
I don’t think they will release an M5 Ultra, which would help prices, but it’s worth it to wait and see.
 
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I have an m4 max in my 14” laptop and barely ever hear the fan (it only ever runs when pushing the GPU, which music production is not likely to be doing)

Go test maybe? The mini has better cooling than a laptop.
Macbook the fans are off until needed. In a Mini, they idle at 1,000-1,200rpm, depending on model.
900-1,000rpm is near silent. 1,200rpm (Pro) is not.

Many music people have multiple monitors. You start putting two 240hz 6K screens on a Pro, fire up Cubase 15 with a full Orchestral emulation - and watch it noisily melt!

This is why I recommend the 34” 21/9 1440p displays at 60hz on HDMI. The old Samsung C791 curved Thunderbolt monitor is a perfect match, and very cheap. Two stacked provides huge real-estate.
But any decent Ultrawide running at 1440p/60hz is just fine.

A base model M4 Studio Max 16-core will always be more sellable than a massively specced-up Pro.
 
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Well, don’t rush, enjoy your coffee. It’s close to midnight where I live so I’m going to bed ;)

Will check in tomorrow…
Would be nice to give your wife a good machine, and suggest you simply buy her a new base M4 Mini with 24GB/512GB. These are freely available used for £800/900 Euro. £999 new.
This leaves 2,100 Euro from your budget. You should easily find a used 14-core M4 Max Studio with 64GB, at that price.

Or, you give her your M1, and buy a new 16-core M4 Max Studio, for 3,000 Euro. The memory bandwidth is increased, which suits Orchestral work.

Or, you wait and wait for a cheap M3 Ultra Studio.

That’s how I see it.
If I had a £3000 budget, and Orchestral leanings - I would want nothing less than an M3 Studio Ultra, and they are out there.
 
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If I had to have a Pro, I would ensure that all peripherals were self-powered, and would run a 21/9 monitor at 1440p 34” at 60hz. That should keep it at its coolest, and has the best screen-resolution for DAWs.

That's exactly what I have : a Dell Ultrawide 34 inch at 60hz...

However, I still have my 2017 27-inch iMac and I might perform some surgery on it to transform it into a DIY Studio Display ; if I succeed, I would use that instead of the Dell (the iMac display is so much nicer) and pass the Dell on to my girlfriend (she's on PC, Solidworks is what she uses daily and that's Windows only...).

The answer is to have a machine that has huge overhead, a bigger box and PSU, with silent running as it’s selling point.

Which would bring us straight to a 16-core Max Studio M4 - conveniently at 3000 euros right now, which is the top end of the OP’s budget. A 64GB/1TB machine as standard, with monster memory bandwidth.

The base Mac Studio M4 Max is only available with 36Gb of RAM ; I have to upgrade the processor to be able to configure it with 64Gb of RAM, bringing the total to around 3500 euros, a bit too steep as I'm already stretching with 3000.

A Mini M4 Pro with 64Gb of RAM and 1Tb SSD comes to 2719 euro with a 12-core CPU and 16-core GPU ; an extra 250 euro gets me the 14-core CPU and 20-core GPU...

In any case, I'm not buying now since we're moving to a new house in two months time. Perhaps I'll try and save up for that Mac Studio, we'll see.
 
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That's exactly what I have : a Dell Ultrawide 34 inch at 60hz...

In any case, I'm not buying now since we're moving to a new house in two months time. Perhaps I'll try and save up for that Mac Studio, we'll see.
If it’s 1440p native, then it will scale better with DAWs.
27” is measly.
Good luck with the move.
My advice is to wait 3 months anyway, and watch prices keenly.
Go for the M3 Ultra Studio, for Orchestral, or either of the M4 Max Studios, and get as much RAM as possible.
 
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Very informative and detailed thread, I love it!! Recently I replaced my aging 2013 Mac Pro with a mini M4. As I had to get a new controller too, I went with the base model as well since I had to watch my budget. I wasn't concerned at all about internal storage as I have a lot of external drives already, both for sound libraries and files. As for the ram I read and watched quite a few articles/videos and was a little bit worried about having only 16 GB. And I figured that 8 GB isn't much a difference but $200 is!... And, well, after a couple of months of using this little beast, I can say that I'm really impressed. There's nothing "mini" about this Mac except its size 😋

I use sample libraries and synths (mainly NI stuff, Arturia and EastWest) and quite frankly, I'm not sure how Apple does this but swap is barely used, even with a few Kontakt instances, Opus and various synths on several instrument tracks, and effects of course. All this with just 16 GB of ram! I do orchestral and EDM, so even if I'm not having 200 track sessions, there's quite a bit of stuff running in real time. I do know "as much ram as possible is always preferable", but I had to make this compromise and very honestly so far I haven't seen any limitations (I had 64GB on the 6,1 Mac Pro). All on Pro Tools because I've been using it for about 25 years and I know it inside and out (on a side note those YouTubers who say you can't "produce" music with Pro Tools should 1/get informed 2/actually use it 😉 I have tried a few times to look elsewhere but there's always something that brings me back to that damn Pro Tools ☺️)

Anyway, just wanted to give a bit of my experience, I couldn't be happier with this mini. Such a powerful little box!
 
Very informative and detailed thread, I love it!!

I went with the base model as well since I had to watch my budget.
Anyway, just wanted to give a bit of my experience, I couldn't be happier with this mini. Such a powerful little box!
Cheers.
I’ve tried my best here to convince the OP that, with his Orchestral aspirations, and 3000 Euros - he is eligible for a used M3 Ultra Studio, and that one will appear at some point.
He might have to put another week’s wages to it, or even find a distant family member that can buy new on the Educational programme - but I don’t think he should compromise. At least not after he decided 64GB was his minimum RAM.

For you and I F1Mac, I think the M5 Mini will arrive with 24GB RAM and TB5, and that would be attractive to us both, at the right price. But I’m pleased you are pushing the base M4, and enjoying it.
Wonderful little machine.

Let’s not forget that, for a lot of students and consumers - their first DAW experience was Pro Tools LE on a DigiDesign002. Was virtually the industry standard for creative music education, back in the 2000’s.
It was only 24-bit masochists like me that were extending the boundaries of Credit-Card company’s patience with Raid motherboards, Dual-Xeons and Cubase 3.7, with a Delta 1010 - back in 2000.
 
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If it’s 1440p native, then it will scale better with DAWs.
27” is measly.
Good luck with the move.
My advice is to wait 3 months anyway, and watch prices keenly.
Go for the M3 Ultra Studio, for Orchestral, or either of the M4 Max Studios, and get as much RAM as possible.

My Dell display is 3440x1440 native at 60hz, works like a charm with my MB Pro.

Will keep an eye on (new) models and prices and keep you posted.

Thanks for the feedback !
 
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