MP 7,1 Mac Pro 2019 or iMac 2020

[ScreamingCheese]

Hey there,

Long time lurker, first time poster. TLDR at bottom.

I would greatly appreciate some advice on helping me decide on a new computer. I currently have a 15” MacBookPro (Mid-2015) 2.5GHz Intel i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD.

I am trying to decide between the 2020 iMac and a Mac Pro 2019. Now, many would wonder why one would even consider those two products when their uses and prices differ so much. The reason for this is because I have, for a limited time, the ability to obtain either computer brand new for a good discounted price.

I am somewhat new to the cybersecurity field and am currently working on a degree. My interests pertain to server management, networking, and penetration testing (white-hat hacking), and maybe some coding. I intend to run virtual machines using VMWare for Windows Server, Windows 10, Kali Linux, Ubuntu, ESXI, Splunk, PaloAlto firewalls, etc. My goal is to be able to create a home lab environment. I want to be able to simulate a large corporate network and hack into it using a different VM on a different virtual network. I could also potentially see myself creating nested ESXI installations for various kinds of lab environments. A major concern would be the iMac’s cooling ability. On my MBP, running Windows 10 in VMWare Fusion the fans come on. When I open 2 VMs, the fans blast and it gets very hot. I would like a single system where I can run my VMs and do other stuff simultaneously without affecting the system performance and having the fans run like in an unairconditioned sweatshop. I could see myself using it as a server as well as doing all the above. The idea is to do as much as I can on a single machine. I may need a server rack in the future, but my goal is to prevent the sprawl of multiple physical servers.

I am not a creative pro. I do not do any video editing, CAD, pro music production, etc. I may, on occasion, use photoshop for light photo editing or Finale for music composition but I am not dealing with massive files or high-end creative projects. It is possible that I may play a few games such as CoD, Resident Evil, likely on BootCamp but this is not going to be its primary focus.

With Apple moving to ARM, this means I would no longer be able to boot Windows. I lOVE Macs and would prefer using software and hardware that “just works” when I spend the rest of my time dealing with software and hardware that doesn’t “just work”. That being said, the new Apple Silicon (which I am excited about for other reasons), will not work for my needs.

Alrighty, now that I got that out of the way, lets talk specs. Basically, my friend works in an Apple Store and can get me a discount. I have a few AppleStore and Visa giftcards given to me as gifts. Whether I can raise additional funds via odd jobs and extra hours at work over the course of the next few months to further reduce the hit my wallet takes remains to be seen. I am also assuming that Apple will bring back the 6% cashback deal for AppleCard. I would use the cashback towards the cost of the computer and factored that into my pricing. The computer would be financed at 0% over 12 months.

iMac 2020:

• Nano-texture glass
• 3.6GHz 10-core 10th-generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz
• 8GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory—(I plan to upgrade this to 128GB with OWC RAM)
• Radeon Pro 5700 XT with 16GB of GDDR6 memory
• 2TB SSD storage
• 10 Gigabit Ethernet
• AppleCare+

Mac Pro 2019:

• 3.2GHz 16‑core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.4GHz
• 32GB (4x8GB) of DDR4 ECC memory—(I plan to upgrade this to either 96GB or 192GB of RAM)
• Radeon Pro W5700X with 16GB of GDDR6 memory
• 2TB SSD storage
• Stainless steel frame with feet
• AppleCare+

I looked at a comparatively speced out iMacPro and the difference between the iMac Pro and a Mac Pro is a couple hundred more. Considering the extensive process it is to open the iMac Pro and upgrade the RAM which means voiding the warranty, I might as well cough up the extra dough for a MacPro and have a computer that is actually upgradable with newer and faster CPUs without the risk of damaging it while upgrading unlike with the iMac Pro.

I like to buy the best I can afford but hold onto it for years. I would use the MacPro for about 7 years as a daily driver AND as a VM server and then transition it to only being a home server. Considering how long folks are using their classic MacPros (1,1-5,1), I figure I could get 10-13 years of usage before the thing is either not physically operable or technology progressed where it is either no longer practical to use or compatible at the most basic level with the current tech. Over time, I would upgrade parts as needed. A 24 or 28 core Xeon with 512GB+ of RAM would still be a beast a decade later…right?


x86 Architecture vs ARM

The work I do requires Windows software. In my opinion, Windows is not running over to ARM full-time anytime soon and most of the world runs Windows and requires x86 architecture. I believe for at least the next 10 years, x86 is not going to go out of style. IT departments take things slowly because reliability matters. Thus, x86 is relevant and will stay relevant for several years because organizations are not rapidly changing their mission critical infrastructure (yes, I know there are some industries that require constant change but a school network, or lawfirm for example, running Windows Server 2012 is not really missing out on a whole lot compared to Windows Server 2019).

In regards to Apple’s move to ARM, I don’t necessarily need iOS/iPad apps to work on my Mac. 1Password and a few apps here and there are the only cross MacOS/iOS apps I use. I can just use my iPad Pro for mobile work as it seems my need for a laptop is diminishing.

The big question is what will Apple do with the Intel Mac pros in a few years. Would Apple make a PCIe ARM CPU co-processor chip which would allow the Intel Mac Pro use ARM natively? That would make the Intel MacPro the only device that has both processors and can run ARM and x86 natively. Considering how much money folks poured into the computer to only to have it be outdated and practically incompatible only a few years later is not a good look for Apple. My most conservative guess is there would be software support for at least 3 years (until 2023) because that is how long AppleCare+ runs for. I wonder if we would see, at best, several years of updates, just modified enough for x86 compatibility. It is possible Apple could cut short the software updates for the Intel Mac Pro, but I think its more likely they would continue to support it with major software updates for the next several years.

Also, will BootCamp continue to be supported on future versions of MacOS beyond Big Sur that run on Intel Macs?

Do I go iMac or Mac Pro? The MacPro would not be an option if it weren’t for the discounts. But since it is a more viable option now, I am stuck between choosing.

TLDR: I do stuff with virtual machines, networking, ESXI, and servers. I can get a good discount on either a MacPro 2019, 16 Core, or a 2020 iMac i9 10th gen 10 core. Do I go Core or Xeon and why?



Thank you for your advice!
ScreamingCheese

 

[sammyman]

I was in the same situation. My wife is a professional photographer, currently uses an iMac Pro. I started looking into the new iMacs because her monitor is starting to have an issue. The problem is when your screen has an issue, or your power source, or your blah blah blah, the computer is garbage.

The Mac Pro is seriously expensive, but I'm already looking into setting up a RAID ssd. Just so much flexibility. And it sounds like you're familiar with the old Mac pros. I had one of those and it lasted me for about 6 years, and probably would have got another four.

Another big issue that you mentioned is cooling. The iMac Pro is dead silent. The iMacs have a reputation of fans spinning. If the new iMac adopted the iMac Pro's cooling system, I would have purchased one. But the inability to upgrade combined with noisy fans and a much shorter life pushed me over the edge. Expecting the Mac Pro in a couple days. I don't think I'll regret my choice.

Good luck.

 

[ScreamingCheese]

I was in the same situation. My wife is a professional photographer, currently uses an iMac Pro. I started looking into the new iMacs because her monitor is starting to have an issue. The problem is when your screen has an issue, or your power source, or your blah blah blah, the computer is garbage.

The Mac Pro is seriously expensive, but I'm already looking into setting up a RAID ssd. Just so much flexibility. And it sounds like you're familiar with the old Mac pros. I had one of those and it lasted me for about 6 years, and probably would have got another four.

Another big issue that you mentioned is cooling. The iMac Pro is dead silent. The iMacs have a reputation of fans spinning. If the new iMac adopted the iMac Pro's cooling system, I would have purchased one. But the inability to upgrade combined with noisy fans and a much shorter life pushed me over the edge. Expecting the Mac Pro in a couple days. I don't think I'll regret my choice.

Good luck.

I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly. What if something breaks? Repairs are expensive and Apple will mostly just force you to replace the unit which can also be expensive. All MacPro parts appear to be replaceable and Apple's website even seems to indicate that they would event service the power supply for example. The expandability is a big deal because I could see myself adding a RAID array on M.2 SSDs or even needing another drive to boot natively from. One of the biggest issues I have with the new iMac is the cooling. If it had the same cooling as the iMac Pro, I go all in. The Mac Pro is seriously expensive, but the discount I get makes it in the very high end part of my price range and a bit of a stretch but considering the discount compared to the full price iMac 2020, it is worth a serious look.

Congrats on your new Mac Pro, I have no doubt you'll love it.

 

[TECK]

Can you wait to get the new ARM processors? Intel is out.

 

[ScreamingCheese]

Can you wait to get the new ARM processors? Intel is out.

Considering I need to virtualize Windows and likely use BootCamp, ARM Macs at this point will not be helpful in that endeavor.

I can see someone asking the question: "Why not just buy a PC?" And to that I say, I love Apple hardware and software and prefer to use it. Both PC and Mac use i9 and Xeon W chips so consdering my usage, which CPU will better accomplish my goals? That is the magic question for me.

 

[OkiRun]

I might as well cough up the extra dough for a MacPro and have a computer that is actually upgradable with newer and faster CPUs,,,

• 3.2GHz 16‑core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.4GHz

Steady on there ~
In all likelihood, the 7,1 is a closed loop in regards to CPUs. The Intel Xeons are set in stone. With the 7,1, there won't be any 'newer' or 'faster' CPUs. What you see is what you got.

 

[TECK]

Considering I need to virtualize Windows and likely use BootCamp, ARM Macs at this point will not be helpful in that endeavor.

Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to OEMs, for now. When Apple will come out with their new machines, this will change instantly. Apple confirmed it’s not planning to support Boot Camp on ARM-based Macs. I use OpenCore to boot between Windows10 and Catalina on my Mac Pro.

All I'm saying is: Intel is out. There is no way Apple will not have users happy to access Windows. Would you invest in a technology that is already labeled deprecated? Your purchased Intel processors will die in your current Mac Pro 7,1, they will not be upgradable. My Mac Pro 5,1 is 10 years old and I will keep it for another 10 if I can. But if I'm forced to upgrade, I will definitely wait for ARM technology to come out and have a choice. I don't want to regret spending 10k.

 

[choreo]

I have always owned Mac towers going back even before the SuperMac clone era (never the trashcan design) - never had an AIO iMac. My brother on the other hand has a long history with iMacs and all of them have failed due to some screen issue that could never get fixed. I almost buckled and purchased an iMac Pro this time around, but just could not spend that much on a soldered-up machine with a built-in screen. So I hocked my soul and purchased a new 2019 Mac Pro last month (which cost almost 4 times what my last 2012 Mac Pro cost to purchase/set-up due to having to buy all new everything - PCI cards, storage, monitors, etc.).

The main reasons I went with Mac Pro:

• Expandability/Upgradability/User-Swapable components
• Access to Ram modules
• Easy to replace power supply (although I have never had one go bad yet)
• Reduction in desk clutter/cables (almost everything I need is self-contained)
• Running cooler/quieter
• Ability to run/replace my own color-calibrated monitors from NEC or Eizo separately (big factor for retouching)
• Living hundreds of miles from an Apple Store (my chances of fixing most hardware issues I can do myself vs iMac)

I don't run Windows, so that was not a consideration for me.

Even though I am having some initial issues with screen freezes/shutdowns, Apple is working on them (I submitted another diagnostic report today). If these kinks work out soon, I will be satisfied. Only concern I have is when they switch to AS. Not sure why if they were so close to implementing AS (just a few months after introducing the 2019 Mac Pro), why they just did not wait to release it at all - they already had gone 8 years without a modular Mac. That is a load of money to drop on a machine that comes with an announcement of obsolescence so soon.

 

[ScreamingCheese]

Steady on there ~
In all likelihood, the 7,1 is a closed loop in regards to CPUs. The Intel Xeons are set in stone. With the 7,1, there won't be any 'newer' or 'faster' CPUs. What you see is what you got.

I assumed the CPUs were unofficially user replaceable based off of these: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/cpu-upgrade-in-2019-mac-pro.2216212/post-28081956

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So as long as one uses a CPU with a FCLGA3647 socket, it should work as long as Apple doesn't do something software-wise to prevent that. Another question is will Intel make faster 14nm CPUs using the FCLGA3647 socket?

I have always owned Mac towers going back even before the SuperMac clone era (never the trashcan design) - never had an AIO iMac. My brother on the other hand has a long history with iMacs and all of them have failed due to some screen issue that could never get fixed. I almost buckled and purchased an iMac Pro this time around, but just could not spend that much on a soldered-up machine with a built-in screen. So I hocked my soul and purchased a new 2019 Mac Pro last month (which cost almost 4 times what my last 2012 Mac Pro cost to purchase/set-up due to having to buy all new everything - PCI cards, storage, monitors, etc.).

The main reasons I went with Mac Pro:

• Expandability/Upgradability/User-Swapable components
• Access to Ram modules
• Easy to replace power supply (although I have never had one go bad yet)
• Reduction in desk clutter/cables (almost everything I need is self-contained)
• Running cooler/quieter
• Ability to run/replace my own color-calibrated monitors from NEC or Eizo separately (big factor for retouching)
• Living hundreds of miles from an Apple Store (my chances of fixing most hardware issues I can do myself vs iMac)

I don't run Windows, so that was not a consideration for me.

Even though I am having some initial issues with screen freezes/shutdowns, Apple is working on them (I submitted another diagnostic report today). If these kinks work out soon, I will be satisfied. Only concern I have is when they switch to AS. Not sure why if they were so close to implementing AS (just a few months after introducing the 2019 Mac Pro), why they just did not wait to release it at all - they already had gone 8 years without a modular Mac. That is a load of money to drop on a machine that comes with an announcement of obsolescence so soon.

My reasons for considering a Mac Pro are extrmely similar to yours except I live closer to an Apple Store than you. The user upgradable/replaceable parts are important for longevity. If I can make a large purchase that will last a long time, it makes financial sense. Its like buying computing power in bulk. Do you think the Mac Pro will maintain its level of power as the years go by? I am inclined to think so because look at the Mac Geekbench scores, I noticed that the tower mac pros and even the trashcan mac pro still competes with some comparitvely new hardware. Heck, my 2015 MBP runs 2 simultaneous VMs faster than I would have expected a 2.5 GHz quad core laptop would in 2020.

 

[LeonPro]

Although the new iMac may be a great deal for today's needs, for professional use I'm wary of an all-in-one build. Like mentioned above, when something goes, usually the whole system goes unless it's user replaceable. Which is why the Mac Pro may be a better spend for longer term longevity.

If I were not an Apple user for over 2 decades, I would have already patronized AMD's CPU.

 

[choreo]

If I can make a large purchase that will last a long time, it makes financial sense. Its like buying computing power in bulk. Do you think the Mac Pro will maintain its level of power as the years go by? I am inclined to think so because look at the Mac Geekbench scores, I noticed that the tower mac pros and even the trashcan mac pro still competes with some comparitvely new hardware. Heck, my 2015 MBP runs 2 simultaneous VMs faster than I would have expected a 2.5 GHz quad core laptop would in 2020.

I think everyone is "guessing" at this point as far as "longevity". As far as the "hardware", I have never had an Apple issue of any kind (except for swelling batteries on portable devices manufactured after 2015). The modular Macs have never had any problems (so far). My 2012 Mac Pro has been humming along every day since I bought it 7 years ago new and it is currently running Mojave. That computer would still be fine for me (and I am keeping it for 32-bit apps for now), but it is changes in software (dropping of Mac OS support and 64-bit apps) that pushed me out of it - not the hardware itself. As far as "speed" it was still acceptable for the "mostly" non-video work I do.

There are at least two trains of thought when making a large purchase like this... (1) People who justify the expense by passing it on to their customers on a short term basis and just subtract it from their profits and (2) People who consider it more of a long-term "investment" in order to justify the cost. I am somewhere in between on the 2019 Mac Pro. If Apple cripples it when the AS comes out, then it was a bad choice for me, but even if an AS Mac Pro came out that was 10 times faster in benchmarks, it would not justify me upgrading - it would be more because of dropped OS support or Adobe and other 3rd party apps not keeping up (which is already the case). For instance some people "lease" their cars either because they drive them hard, always want the latest tech, put lots of miles on them - but in all cases they see them as a short-term throw-away item. In my case, most large purchases I make are with longevity in mind. Most people that buy a new Chevy Corvette at around $100k today will be in another car in 2-3 years and take the hit. In my case, I purchased a 2001 Corvette which has been my daily driver for 20 years next month - it still looks like it came off the showroom floor and drives better than when I bought it new (almost daily someone will ask me if it is the "new" Corvette since they are not that savvy!). I did my research and was convinced that the C5 Corvette in 2001 would last. I currently have 75,000 miles on it (since I work from home) - so that works out to about $175/mo. to purchase that car so far (and I can still sell it for nearly half what I paid for it cutting that in half). While I would love to have a 2020 Corvette, they are now for the mega-rich packed with more things to go wrong than I can count and too many electronic gadgets to go bad that nobody could repair themselves... so not a great car to buy as a long-term DD IMO.

So for me, longevity is a big consideration - speed is a bonus. Maybe Apple will feel generous and offer an Mac Pro AS upgrade board when it launches? OK, I am dreaming now!

 

[OkiRun]

I assumed the CPUs were unofficially user replaceable based off of these: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/cpu-upgrade-in-2019-mac-pro.2216212/post-28081956

Yes ~ you can change out the CPU by yourself - what I meant to convey the meaning is that the specific types of CPUs to fit the 7,1 are set in stone at this time and seems unlikely to change. If the 28 core will suit your needs for the lifespan of the computer, then the 7,1 is a good fit or if you want to cut cores and go for more speed, then you can 'downgrade'. But don't expect Apple to increase the number/types of available CPUs for the 7,1 in the future. That is my point. Sorry for confusion.

 

[fritzzzzzz]

the choice is easy... on hardware wise, iMac 2020 10 core model with 5700XT is enough for what you are doing and planning to do. Mac Pro will overkill either you pick 16core CPU or 8 Core ones. Eventually it comes to your budget - if you have money so you can pick anything you like. the pricing is big difference though - so all you need to calculate how much budget you have.

 

[djjeff]

Unless you need to virtualize macOS I would recommend heading over to Ebay and picking up a Z620 system which you can easily load up with dual, multicore CPUs, 192GB of RAM, and a 1TB Z-Turbo drive for a lot less money than either of those systems. I understand this is a Mac forum but you could save a lot of money for what you need to do.

 

[sanfrancisofont1984]

I would say Mac mini with some upgrades based on your need. Save money by upgrading the RAM yourself. It has 6/10 repairability score from iFixit compared to 4/10 for an iMac; not too shabby. Just to be crystal clear the internal storage and CPU are not upgradable in the latest mini.

I'm assuming 6 core is enough horsepower for your home lab. Storage should be easily expandable on the external.

The thing I am not sure about is gaming. Obviously you would want an eGPU. The thing is that TB3 has the bandwidth of PCIe 3.0 x4 so it will get bottlenecked at some point.

 

[sanfrancisofont1984]

I know you said single system. I still think the best setup might be keeping your MacBook around for "life" (okay it only has TB2...). Then throw as many Mac minis as you want for server stuff.

From a performance per dollar perspective I would not buy anything uses new Xeon. Outside the Apple universe, I would either get a new Ryzen/Threadripper system or a used Xeon system.

 

[mcnallym]

Personally would go here with a two box setup.

1st - Mac of your choice that will actually have as desktop - doesn’t matter if arm or intel as just the desktop. Mini would be fine, as hard work done on 2nd system. all will be doing is connecting to machines on second system. Can attach two monitors with usb-c to whatever monitors take. You will seriously appreciate the screen real estate When running multiple machines connected into.
2nd - vmware esxi - the free version. Ryzen/threadripper as better bang for buck. Esxi vs fusion is no contest.

your virtualisation system being pc based will be much more easily upgrade able and easily fixable.

mac goes Apple silicon, so what, you will still be able to connect to vm’s from Apple silicon Mac.

use Mac where is good for and esxi for virtualisation.

 

[filmgirl]

I was in a very similar boat as you. My use cases aren’t security but a combination of cloud native software development and streaming via OBS. I had the money to do a Mac Pro (no employee discount for me but I could have probably scored one from a friend) and the upgradability/design speaks to my gadget lust heart. Like you, VMs are a big part of my workflow (containers too), and that means x86. I’ll absolutely get an Apple Silicon machine but I’m not expecting to be able to use it the way I want to use my Mac now.

But I ultimately went for the new iMac instead (I ordered the exact config you are looking at except I swapped nano texture for VESA. It’s now preparing to ship so I hope to have it next week.). This is why:

• I asked a good friend of mine for his take. John is not just the pickiest person I know, he’s the only person who has agonized about these decisions more than me. He got his Mac Pro in December and got the W5700X in April. He is happy with his machine but expressed incredulity that I would willingly buy a Mac Pro now. That gave me pause.
• As much as I would like to believe Apple will support the Mac Pro for another decade, in my heart, I don’t believe this to be true. Realistically, I think that in 3 - 4 years, Intel Macs will be security updates only and that developers will drop support for them, especially once macOS drops support. That will mean that Windows/Linux will be the only viable ongoing modern option going forward and for my $8000, I don’t love that.
• I get upgrade fever pretty often. Even if Intel is supported for more years than I expect, I know myself and I know I’ll still wind up buying another new Mac at some point, even if it wouldn’t be my primary Mac.
• I honestly feel like I would be too tempted to also spend $5000 on the XDR display.
• I’m self-aware enough to know that the Mac Pro is too much computer for my needs, especially when I’d be potentially spending at least $10k on it (close to $15k if I got the XDR instead of another display). I’m very comfortable financially but I’m not rich enough to be able to drop $10k on a computer I know I don’t need. Maybe some day, but that day is not today
• Even though travel seems far away, eventually it will be a thing again. I flew 140,000 miles last year and before being grounded in March, flew 50,000 miles in 2020. I need a laptop as much as a desktop.

So this is my compromise: I’m going to take the $3000-$4000 I’m saving on the Mac Pro vs the iMac and I’m going to put it into building an insane AMD system optimized for gaming/streaming once the Zen 3 chips are released. Realistically, I won’t need to spend that much but I know that I can and still be under Mac Pro budget.

Not only will it be fun to build a machine — it’ll be something that will be much more upgradable down the line when used as a server. If my gut feeling that a Mac Pro will become a glorified Windows machine in 3-4 years anyway, it makes more sense to just build a damn Windows machine for that purpose.

You know yourself and your own budget. But I would encourage you to look past the drool factor of a Mac Pro and consider if you really need to spend that kind of cash.

For a home lab environment where you’re going to be doing a LOT of non macOS stuff (down to running ESXi!!), I honestly don’t think a Mac Pro is a good outlay of resources. Consider that you could get a loaded iMac AND a Xeon 1U or 2U system for less than or equal to that 12-core Mac Pro (not accounting for employee discount). I have two ten year old Xeon servers in my living room that I got super cheap off Craigslist and it’s an amazing home lab/Kubernetes test bench/Plex server. You’re a student so getting a used actual server for the home lab might make even more sense. Just SSH into it from whatever Mac you choose.

Best of luck.

 

[ScreamingCheese]

Personally would go here with a two box setup.

1st - Mac of your choice that will actually have as desktop - doesn’t matter if arm or intel as just the desktop. Mini would be fine, as hard work done on 2nd system. all will be doing is connecting to machines on second system. Can attach two monitors with usb-c to whatever monitors take. You will seriously appreciate the screen real estate When running multiple machines connected into.
2nd - vmware esxi - the free version. Ryzen/threadripper as better bang for buck. Esxi vs fusion is no contest.

your virtualisation system being pc based will be much more easily upgrade able and easily fixable.

mac goes Apple silicon, so what, you will still be able to connect to vm’s from Apple silicon Mac.

use Mac where is good for and esxi for virtualisation.

I was in a very similar boat as you. My use cases aren’t security but a combination of cloud native software development and streaming via OBS. I had the money to do a Mac Pro (no employee discount for me but I could have probably scored one from a friend) and the upgradability/design speaks to my gadget lust heart. Like you, VMs are a big part of my workflow (containers too), and that means x86. I’ll absolutely get an Apple Silicon machine but I’m not expecting to be able to use it the way I want to use my Mac now.

But I ultimately went for the new iMac instead (I ordered the exact config you are looking at except I swapped nano texture for VESA. It’s now preparing to ship so I hope to have it next week.). This is why:

• I asked a good friend of mine for his take. John is not just the pickiest person I know, he’s the only person who has agonized about these decisions more than me. He got his Mac Pro in December and got the W5700X in April. He is happy with his machine but expressed incredulity that I would willingly buy a Mac Pro now. That gave me pause.
• As much as I would like to believe Apple will support the Mac Pro for another decade, in my heart, I don’t believe this to be true. Realistically, I think that in 3 - 4 years, Intel Macs will be security updates only and that developers will drop support for them, especially once macOS drops support. That will mean that Windows/Linux will be the only viable ongoing modern option going forward and for my $8000, I don’t love that.
• I get upgrade fever pretty often. Even if Intel is supported for more years than I expect, I know myself and I know I’ll still wind up buying another new Mac at some point, even if it wouldn’t be my primary Mac.
• I honestly feel like I would be too tempted to also spend $5000 on the XDR display.
• I’m self-aware enough to know that the Mac Pro is too much computer for my needs, especially when I’d be potentially spending at least $10k on it (close to $15k if I got the XDR instead of another display). I’m very comfortable financially but I’m not rich enough to be able to drop $10k on a computer I know I don’t need. Maybe some day, but that day is not today
• Even though travel seems far away, eventually it will be a thing again. I flew 140,000 miles last year and before being grounded in March, flew 50,000 miles in 2020. I need a laptop as much as a desktop.

So this is my compromise: I’m going to take the $3000-$4000 I’m saving on the Mac Pro vs the iMac and I’m going to put it into building an insane AMD system optimized for gaming/streaming once the Zen 3 chips are released. Realistically, I won’t need to spend that much but I know that I can and still be under Mac Pro budget.

Not only will it be fun to build a machine — it’ll be something that will be much more upgradable down the line when used as a server. If my gut feeling that a Mac Pro will become a glorified Windows machine in 3-4 years anyway, it makes more sense to just build a damn Windows machine for that purpose.

You know yourself and your own budget. But I would encourage you to look past the drool factor of a Mac Pro and consider if you really need to spend that kind of cash.

For a home lab environment where you’re going to be doing a LOT of non macOS stuff (down to running ESXi!!), I honestly don’t think a Mac Pro is a good outlay of resources. Consider that you could get a loaded iMac AND a Xeon 1U or 2U system for less than or equal to that 12-core Mac Pro (not accounting for employee discount). I have two ten year old Xeon servers in my living room that I got super cheap off Craigslist and it’s an amazing home lab/Kubernetes test bench/Plex server. You’re a student so getting a used actual server for the home lab might make even more sense. Just SSH into it from whatever Mac you choose.

Best of luck.

In the very back of my mind, I considered the possibility of needing 2 computers but didnt really give it much thought beyond that. Perhaps I just needed to hear it from others. Between these posts and a few others, it seems like this is the way to go. Get the iMac 2020 and then spec out a AMD Threadripper 24 or 32 core. Doing some preliminary cost analysis, the savings I would have left over from not buying the Mac Pro would go towards the custom build, just as Filmgirl stated. Btw, thank you so much for your detailed post Filmgirl! It looks like it might be possible to get both for the price of a discounted Mac Pro with specs in my first post (possibly even couple hundred $$ less).

Now this opens another rabbit hole that I am both excited and terrified for lol! Who wants to help spec out a 24 or 32 core AMD Threadripper? This might be a question for r/pcmasterrace and r/buildapc


Im still open to hearing more ideas and opinions on this so please feel free to keep dropping by. Thank you!

 

[filmgirl]

In the very back of my mind, I considered the possibility of needing 2 computers but didnt really give it much thought beyond that. Perhaps I just needed to hear it from others. Between these posts and a few others, it seems like this is the way to go. Get the iMac 2020 and then spec out a AMD Threadripper 24 or 32 core. Doing some preliminary cost analysis, the savings I would have left over from not buying the Mac Pro would go towards the custom build, just as Filmgirl stated. Btw, thank you so much for your detailed post Filmgirl! It looks like it might be possible to get both for the price of a discounted Mac Pro with specs in my first post (possibly even couple hundred $$ less).

Now this opens another rabbit hole that I am both excited and terrified for lol! Who wants to help spec out a 24 or 32 core AMD Threadripper? This might be a question for r/pcmasterrace and r/buildapc


Im still open to hearing more ideas and opinions on this so please feel free to keep dropping by. Thank you!

Hey happy to help and I look forward to hearing what you do! Reddit is probably the best place for the Threadripper build but there are some of us here who like to dabble with that too (dozens of us!).

Also, if you want to go down a really awesome rabbit hole, you can look into the Threadripper Hackintosh scene (https://amd-osx.com/ is one resource and there's a lot of other stuff out there too). Hackintosh stuff is always hit or miss for reliability/future updates, but you're doing server stuff anyway so why not play? You can run macOS via QEMU pretty reliably, especially if you have an AMD GPU you can use, and there is a whole community of people who have managed to run macOS on ESXi too.

 

[richmlow]

Hello ScreamingCheese,


Having read your original post, I would recommend the Mac Pro 2019 (as opposed to the 2020 iMac).

I have never been a fan of "all in ones" because of upgradability and repair issues. The tower design of the 2019 Mac Pro is far more flexible and "future-proof", compared to the closed-system of the 2020 iMac.

I would imagine that a 2019 Mac Pro would have a usable lifespan of 10+ years (from today) if not more! Upgrading the memory, SSD drives, graphics cards, etc. are very easy to do, now and into the future.

I don't have a 2019 Mac Pro. However, even my 2013 Mac Pro has been very robust and easily upgradable (SSD and memory). I expect to be using my 2013 Mac Pro for another 10 years!

Good luck on your decision!



richmlow

Hey there,

Long time lurker, first time poster. TLDR at bottom.

I would greatly appreciate some advice on helping me decide on a new computer. I currently have a 15” MacBookPro (Mid-2015) 2.5GHz Intel i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD.

I am trying to decide between the 2020 iMac and a Mac Pro 2019. Now, many would wonder why one would even consider those two products when their uses and prices differ so much. The reason for this is because I have, for a limited time, the ability to obtain either computer brand new for a good discounted price.

I am somewhat new to the cybersecurity field and am currently working on a degree. My interests pertain to server management, networking, and penetration testing (white-hat hacking), and maybe some coding. I intend to run virtual machines using VMWare for Windows Server, Windows 10, Kali Linux, Ubuntu, ESXI, Splunk, PaloAlto firewalls, etc. My goal is to be able to create a home lab environment. I want to be able to simulate a large corporate network and hack into it using a different VM on a different virtual network. I could also potentially see myself creating nested ESXI installations for various kinds of lab environments. A major concern would be the iMac’s cooling ability. On my MBP, running Windows 10 in VMWare Fusion the fans come on. When I open 2 VMs, the fans blast and it gets very hot. I would like a single system where I can run my VMs and do other stuff simultaneously without affecting the system performance and having the fans run like in an unairconditioned sweatshop. I could see myself using it as a server as well as doing all the above. The idea is to do as much as I can on a single machine. I may need a server rack in the future, but my goal is to prevent the sprawl of multiple physical servers.

I am not a creative pro. I do not do any video editing, CAD, pro music production, etc. I may, on occasion, use photoshop for light photo editing or Finale for music composition but I am not dealing with massive files or high-end creative projects. It is possible that I may play a few games such as CoD, Resident Evil, likely on BootCamp but this is not going to be its primary focus.

With Apple moving to ARM, this means I would no longer be able to boot Windows. I lOVE Macs and would prefer using software and hardware that “just works” when I spend the rest of my time dealing with software and hardware that doesn’t “just work”. That being said, the new Apple Silicon (which I am excited about for other reasons), will not work for my needs.

Alrighty, now that I got that out of the way, lets talk specs. Basically, my friend works in an Apple Store and can get me a discount. I have a few AppleStore and Visa giftcards given to me as gifts. Whether I can raise additional funds via odd jobs and extra hours at work over the course of the next few months to further reduce the hit my wallet takes remains to be seen. I am also assuming that Apple will bring back the 6% cashback deal for AppleCard. I would use the cashback towards the cost of the computer and factored that into my pricing. The computer would be financed at 0% over 12 months.

iMac 2020:

• Nano-texture glass
• 3.6GHz 10-core 10th-generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz
• 8GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory—(I plan to upgrade this to 128GB with OWC RAM)
• Radeon Pro 5700 XT with 16GB of GDDR6 memory
• 2TB SSD storage
• 10 Gigabit Ethernet
• AppleCare+

Mac Pro 2019:

• 3.2GHz 16‑core Intel Xeon W processor, Turbo Boost up to 4.4GHz
• 32GB (4x8GB) of DDR4 ECC memory—(I plan to upgrade this to either 96GB or 192GB of RAM)
• Radeon Pro W5700X with 16GB of GDDR6 memory
• 2TB SSD storage
• Stainless steel frame with feet
• AppleCare+

I looked at a comparatively speced out iMacPro and the difference between the iMac Pro and a Mac Pro is a couple hundred more. Considering the extensive process it is to open the iMac Pro and upgrade the RAM which means voiding the warranty, I might as well cough up the extra dough for a MacPro and have a computer that is actually upgradable with newer and faster CPUs without the risk of damaging it while upgrading unlike with the iMac Pro.

I like to buy the best I can afford but hold onto it for years. I would use the MacPro for about 7 years as a daily driver AND as a VM server and then transition it to only being a home server. Considering how long folks are using their classic MacPros (1,1-5,1), I figure I could get 10-13 years of usage before the thing is either not physically operable or technology progressed where it is either no longer practical to use or compatible at the most basic level with the current tech. Over time, I would upgrade parts as needed. A 24 or 28 core Xeon with 512GB+ of RAM would still be a beast a decade later…right?


x86 Architecture vs ARM

The work I do requires Windows software. In my opinion, Windows is not running over to ARM full-time anytime soon and most of the world runs Windows and requires x86 architecture. I believe for at least the next 10 years, x86 is not going to go out of style. IT departments take things slowly because reliability matters. Thus, x86 is relevant and will stay relevant for several years because organizations are not rapidly changing their mission critical infrastructure (yes, I know there are some industries that require constant change but a school network, or lawfirm for example, running Windows Server 2012 is not really missing out on a whole lot compared to Windows Server 2019).

In regards to Apple’s move to ARM, I don’t necessarily need iOS/iPad apps to work on my Mac. 1Password and a few apps here and there are the only cross MacOS/iOS apps I use. I can just use my iPad Pro for mobile work as it seems my need for a laptop is diminishing.

The big question is what will Apple do with the Intel Mac pros in a few years. Would Apple make a PCIe ARM CPU co-processor chip which would allow the Intel Mac Pro use ARM natively? That would make the Intel MacPro the only device that has both processors and can run ARM and x86 natively. Considering how much money folks poured into the computer to only to have it be outdated and practically incompatible only a few years later is not a good look for Apple. My most conservative guess is there would be software support for at least 3 years (until 2023) because that is how long AppleCare+ runs for. I wonder if we would see, at best, several years of updates, just modified enough for x86 compatibility. It is possible Apple could cut short the software updates for the Intel Mac Pro, but I think its more likely they would continue to support it with major software updates for the next several years.

Also, will BootCamp continue to be supported on future versions of MacOS beyond Big Sur that run on Intel Macs?

Do I go iMac or Mac Pro? The MacPro would not be an option if it weren’t for the discounts. But since it is a more viable option now, I am stuck between choosing.

TLDR: I do stuff with virtual machines, networking, ESXI, and servers. I can get a good discount on either a MacPro 2019, 16 Core, or a 2020 iMac i9 10th gen 10 core. Do I go Core or Xeon and why?



Thank you for your advice!
ScreamingCheese

 

[sanfrancisofont1984]

I would imagine that a 2019 Mac Pro would have a usable lifespan of 10+ years (from today) if not more! Upgrading the memory, SSD drives, graphics cards, etc. are very easy to do, now and into the future.

Apple silicon aside. People already build IBM PC compatibles with much more horsepower for much cheaper today.

So I would guess in 5 years a MP 7,1 would go head to head with a max-out Mac mini. Which is exactly what happened with 2013 Pro and 2018 mini.

 

[flowrider]

I think everyone is "guessing" at this point as far as "longevity". As far as the "hardware", I have never had an Apple issue of any kind.

So for me, longevity is a big consideration - speed is a bonus.

Well I guess our philosophy is similar. My 2010 cMP was heavily modified and served me well for seven years. Only item "replaced" was the power supply. Other components - CPU, storage, GPU and etc. were replaced over time, some three or more times. Cars - My last car, a modified Lexus ISF with FBO went eleven years before I sold it. My current Lexus LC also with FBO will also last a long time. My truck is now eight years old. I never lease anything - not even software. Also, I never buy used.

Lou

 

[sanfrancisofont1984]

So I would guess in 5 years a MP 7,1 would go head to head with a max-out Mac mini. Which is exactly what happened with 2013 Pro and 2018 mini.

To be fair to 7,1 the maximum amount of RAM supported far exceeds what non-Pro Threadripper could handle today (256GB).

 

[djjeff]

Now this opens another rabbit hole that I am both excited and terrified for lol! Who wants to help spec out a 24 or 32 core AMD Threadripper? This might be a question for r/pcmasterrace and r/buildapc

As I mentioned in my earlier post...head over to Ebay and pick up a Z620 system, throw in 192GB of RAM, a Z-Turbo drive and be done with it. I use this exact system to do exactly what you are wanting to do.