MP 7,1 Mac Pro 7,1 Costs Too Much MegaThread -> Plan Your Adventure Here

[MisterAndrew]

So, you think the new Mac Pro is too expensive or maybe you just want to be part of the price discussion fun. Well, I’ve assembled links to all the awesome threads here so you won’t miss out.

But what if you’ve already read them all and participated in them? Well not to worry! More people will be creating threads covering this exact same topic for months and possibly years to come! I’ll do my best to keep the list of links growing as they appear.

I'm not sure what the point is the OP is trying to make, but it looks like he has one: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...vulnerable-exploding-silicon-of-crap.2215419/

The OP thinks you may be better off buying an iMac (because the Mac Pro is expensive):
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/most-won’t-be-able-to-afford-a-new-mac-pro.2183537/

The OP wonders who the target market is because it's so expensive:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-the-new-mac-pro-too-niche.2184343/

The OP is disappointed because they think the new Mac Pro has more "glitz than guts." They elaborate extensively on this, but it's hard to follow, so it's not immediately obvious what their point is. (But it looks like they may have a pretty saucy one!):
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/unimpressed-with-apples-direction.2215767/

The OP can't put their head around the price based on the price of components:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...lease-explain-why-it-is-so-expensive.2183967/

The OP gives Apple some love:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-the-new-mac-pro-too-expensive-merged.2183898/

This one has been merged into the previous thread:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/is-the-new-mac-pro-overly-expensive.2183992/

The OP wants you to know the Mac Pro is not for you (because it's expensive): https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...nd-why-its-a-good-thing-for-everyone.2184349/

This OP also wants you to know the Mac Pro isn't for you: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-mp-its-not-for-you-so-who-is-it-for.2215403/

This OP doesn’t hold back and goes straight to the point: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-too-expensive-i-hate-apple-rant.2183898/

This thread complains about the Mac Pro’s price with savory poll options:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ey-where-your-mouth-is.2184645/#post-27438690

The OP desires a less expensive version (because it’s too expensive): https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...themselves-in-the-foot.2184448/#post-27434063

The OP ponders why Apple doesn't offer a consumer (lower priced) modular Mac:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/this-is-why-i-complain-about-mac-prices.2184454/

This OP also wonders if Apple will make a less expensive version: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/low-mid-range-mac.2215441/

This OP also ponders a smaller (& less expensive) Mac Pro:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...pro-but-you-got-serious-issues-now-t.2215857/

A lot of price discussion in the thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/the-new-colander-mac-pro.2183802/

The OP compares the Mac Pro to an expensive obscure workstation from decades past: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/the-new-mac-pro-is-just-like-the-sgi-workstations.2184279/

The OP is finding it hard to justify the expense of a new Mac Pro: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...y-an-upgrade-to-the-cheesegrater-2-0.2184433/

The OP thinks the monitor stand is too expensive: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/a-1000-monitor-stand-come-on-apple.2184248/

The OP wonders if there'll be a cheaper version of the Pro Display XDR (because it's too expensive): https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-pro-display-trickle-down.2187913/

Lots of saucy price discussion here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/reactions-to-mac-pro-7-1-2019-consolidate-here.2183854/

The OP compares the price of the monitor stand to a MacBook: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/help-me-decide.2184350/

Someone in this thread thinks a fully-spec’d Mac Pro will cost as much as a kidney: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-will-the-fully-speced-out-2019-mp-cost.2184265/

The OP ponders a bare bones Mac Pro (because it’s too expensive): https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ere-offered-bare-bones.2184029/#post-27423744

The OP ponders if Apple can make a cheaper modular Mac:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/i-wonder.2183964/

The OP wonders if they can justify the expensive purchase:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-i-have-the-resources-to-purchase-a-complete-entry-level-configuration-but.2184005/

The OP asks if the price is worth it:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-tax-in-full-swing.2183856/

The OP points out that a top spec Mac Pro costs more than an average car:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...he-average-car-45-000-for-a-computer.2184701/

The OP thinks Apple should sell the power cords for a high price (sarcasm):
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-should-sell-the-power-cords-separately-next-time.2184718/

The OP gives links to price discussion on another forum:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/red-user-thread-on-the-new-mac-pro.2184937/

The OP asks what price it should be (because it's expensive.): https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/poll-so-what-should-the-base-mp-2019-be-sold-for-then.2185017/

The OP says the new Mac Pro is "out of reach" and offers details on a lower-cost alternative: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-imac-imac-pro-mac-mini-mac-pro-mac.2185240/

The OP makes interesting conclusions about the new Mac Pro's specs echoing opinions of a YouTube personality: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...mbol-but-dont-care-about-performance.2185249/

The OP was eagerly awaiting the new Mac Pro only to be put off by the high price: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...t-are-the-alternatives.2185201/#post-27449528

The OP ponders if Apple will sell a bare bones Mac Pro without an MPX GPU for less money:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...option-for-new-mac-pro.2192742/#post-27612593

The OP wonders how wealthy Mac Pro buyers are by asking what their income range is:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ur-income-range-votes-are-not-public.2183903/

The OP ponders if Apple will sell a cheaper Mac Pro:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/will-apple-cave-on-the-7-1-release.2191045/

The OP weighs whether it makes more sense to buy a new Mac Pro or build a PC.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/intel-prices-drops-causing-a-buying-dilemma.2204888/

Price discussion about the wheels:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro’s-optional-wheels-cost-400.2215514/

The OP thinks Apple should lower the price of the base Mac Pro (because it's too expensive):
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-should-lower-the-price-of-entry-level-mac-pro.2216182/

Some off-topic price discussion going on here. Who can blame them!? https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-7-1-configuration-pricing-and-accessories.2184452/

If you keep clicking on this link you’ll have never-ending fun: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mac-pro-7-1-costs-too-much-megathread-plan-your-adventure-here.2184687/

 

[Derived]

It’s clear a large majority of this people who post in this sub (especially lately) not only don’t need a Mac Pro, but shouldn’t have one. And shouldn’t even be posting here. It’s gotten beyond nonsensical.

Not only does it not “cost too much” when you consider what it actually costs to buy this hardware, it’s possibly even a good deal. “I don’t need it, so it’s too expensive” isn’t an argument.

I don’t know why the mods have let this nonsensical, childish drivel proliferate, but nearly all of these threads should be nuked. Almost all of them are a black hole for any logic, reason, facts or intelligent conversation of any kind. Merely a cancerous tumor on this thread.

Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Yea, why would they let a bunch of people gather on the internet and discuss a topic of interest and share their opinions!

 

[slughead]

It’s clear a large majority of this people who post in this sub (especially lately) not only don’t need a Mac Pro, but shouldn’t have one. And shouldn’t even be posting here. It’s gotten beyond nonsensical.

This forum is mostly occupied by users who have bought a mac pro and paid less than $3500. We have an expectation of a certain level of value and a certain target audience based on literally all previous models. I bet it's even more the previous cheesegraters that dominate (could be wrong). Even though we are the majority, we still don't belong here any more than anyone else

Not only does it not “cost too much” when you consider what it actually costs to buy this hardware, it’s possibly even a good deal. “I don’t need it, so it’s too expensive” isn’t an argument.

How do you figure it's a "good deal?" What's your citation for the price breakdown?

I don’t know why the mods have let this nonsensical, childish drivel proliferate, but nearly all of these threads should be nuked. Almost all of them are a black hole for any logic, reason, facts or intelligent conversation of any kind. Merely a cancerous tumor on this thread.

Absolutely ridiculous.

There's been nothing to talk about for 6 years in this forum regarding new Mac Pro news. I assumed it was dead before the previous announcement. If you don't like what most people are talking about in this forum, perhaps it is you who don't belong here?

 

[tlab]

Why is it surprising that this forum is mostly people outside the demographic that needs the full power of the new MP? Apple neglected the MP for six years. The product line was effectively discontinued. Until Monday this forum was basically in the same category as the PowerPC macs forum - enthusiasts squeezing the last useable ounce of power out of an aging piece of technology. Which is why 60%+ of the posts here by actual Mac Pro users were about upgrades and hacks for the cMP.

Almost everyone who needs the new Mac Pro wouldn’t currently use a Mac Pro, because the limitations of the cMP would have been too much, and the lack of expandability of the tcMP would have made it unfit for purpose four years ago. So it’s not like you should expect the existing forum membership to be super excited by the prospect of a computer that (for genuine, rational reasons having regard to its power and expandability) costs twice as much as every other Mac Pro/PowerMac Apple has previously made. The existing MacPro demographic has very little overlap with the new Mac Pro’s demographic.

Hence the majority opinion (on this forum) that it would be great if Apple released a ‘Mac’ or an ‘xMac’ or a ‘Mac Mini Plus’. Or even just a new trash can with TB3 and an i9 instead of the Xeon.

As for ‘Apple diluting the meaning of Pro’, keep in mind that the Mac Pro was simply the Intel version of the PowerMac, which was just the name used for tower Macs running PowerPC CPUs, distinguishing them from all-in-one PPC Macs (eg the PPC Performa, the G3, G4 and G5 iMacs and the G4 eMac). They were more powerful but they weren’t supposed to be Lamborghinis.

When the intel switch came along, ‘Mac Pro’ was probably not the most perfect name for it in 2006 but it was consonant with ‘MacBook Pro’ so it stuck. The major change from the PPC era being that the Mac Pro used Xeons while the iMac used Core processors, which was a new distinction for Apple - the G5 in a G5 iMac was more or less the same thing as the G5 in the PowerMac, albeit slower and with fewer cores. Ultimately the 2019 Mac Pro could be considered and example of nominative determinism in action, to the extent the previous Macs Pro didn’t live up to the name.

It’s not surprising that previous Mac Pro/Power Mac users are disappointed that they’re no longer part of the target demographic and to say ‘well you were never a true Pro’ is patronising and inconsistent with the way Apple used ‘Pro’ from the start.

 

[Macpro2019]

I will get one...the nmp2019. I would get 12 core though. Honestly, Mac Pro is suppose to be expensive. I think these newer generation people who buys iPhone, iPad and whatever toys aren’t used to seeing high ended workstation prices. They are probably used to seeing mbp price.

I will buy it for the sake of keeping up with tech. I have 2010 6 core 3.33 and it’s great, but time to move on.

Personally, from my evil side, I am buying one just to look down on people who can’t afford one. Lol just kidding.

Back to seriousness, I don’t need 6k display. I could buy 3rd party monitor with a stand. I’m not sure what display requires,tb3?

 

[amedias]

I applaud your work in putting this resource together. I can now keep track of the debate on my old machine with just a single browser tab open, keeping all the others open was really taxing my 33 core, non-pro machine and I was beginning to wonder how I would cope.

 

[barmann]

Why is it surprising that this forum is mostly people outside the demographic that needs the full power of the new MP? Apple neglected the MP for six years. The product line was effectively discontinued. Until Monday this forum was basically in the same category as the PowerPC macs forum - enthusiasts squeezing the last useable ounce of power out of an aging piece of technology. Which is why 60%+ of the posts here by actual Mac Pro users were about upgrades and hacks for the cMP.

Almost everyone who needs the new Mac Pro wouldn’t currently use a Mac Pro, because the limitations of the cMP would have been too much, and the lack of expandability of the tcMP would have made it unfit for purpose four years ago. So it’s not like you should expect the existing forum membership to be super excited by the prospect of a computer that (for genuine, rational reasons having regard to its power and expandability) costs twice as much as every other Mac Pro/PowerMac Apple has previously made. The existing MacPro demographic has very little overlap with the new Mac Pro’s demographic.

... Ultimately the 2019 Mac Pro could be considered and example of nominative determinism in action, to the extent the previous Macs Pro didn’t live up to the name.

It’s not surprising that previous Mac Pro/Power Mac users are disappointed that they’re no longer part of the target demographic and to say ‘well you were never a true Pro’ is patronising and inconsistent with the way Apple used ‘Pro’ from the start.

You forget about one little fact - the nMP is a carbon copy of the cMP .
It's exactly the same thing, minus some flexibilty and features, only it obviously is using current technology .
RAM , storage , GPU of the announced entry model are the same in value, considering those always get improved over time without an increasae in price .
Matter of fact, storage and GPU are a step back .

Can you explain to me why an updated base cMP is costing more than twice as much as a comparable cMP original, even if we use the latest MP 5.1 model as a comparison ?

There is inflation, granted, but also a global economy in a much worse state , but let's say I give you $500 for inflation .

The nMP is nothing special, just the same old **** - which is great !
I love the thing, , but it is no super computer by any standard .
[doublepost=1559939306][/doublepost]

It’s clear a large majority of this people who post in this sub (especially lately) not only don’t need a Mac Pro, but shouldn’t have one. And shouldn’t even be posting here. It’s gotten beyond nonsensical.

Not only does it not “cost too much” when you consider what it actually costs to buy this hardware, it’s possibly even a good deal. “I don’t need it, so it’s too expensive” isn’t an argument.

I don’t know why the mods have let this nonsensical, childish drivel proliferate, but nearly all of these threads should be nuked. Almost all of them are a black hole for any logic, reason, facts or intelligent conversation of any kind. Merely a cancerous tumor on this thread.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Possibly the largest pile of utter nonsense posted here in a while .

The base nMP costs too much because it offers too little for the price , and because arguably the pricing was chosen due to marketing considerations only .
It's a 3.5k computer, period .
And not very usable in base config for most , if not all users .

 

[blackquartz]

Personally, I will get one, my 5,1 will retire to work as a server. I Run an small Graphic design and 3D design office and im really thankful for the 10 year mark I will hit with my current 5,1 Mac Pro next year. Ive enjoyed this machine, I have two 1080tis on it, usb 3, solid states drives, done the pixlas and bluetooth mods, you name it.

The fact that I can keep using this investment over the foreseeable future is only another reason to upgrade to the 7,1 Mac Pro. That being said, Im not loving the the price increases but I will cover it with a couple of projects. The display, as nice as it is , I can't justify the cost, so it will be a pass for me as of now.

To those people complaining I get you, Apple is doing all sorts of crazy sh*t right now ( mouse on an iPad?? what??) , and who knows, maybe they'll release a parallel cheaper Mac Pro version with just one PCI slot like the leak we saw before, but if by all lights your job doesn't pay for this new machine, you shouldn't get one, it would be nonsensical.

Just my two cents.

 

[eksu]

Can you include a link to this thread in the main post?

That's https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-megathread-plan-your-adventure-here.2184687/

Thanks MisterAndrew

 

[now i see it]

Apple has made it clear from the first Bondi Blue iMac that it wants its customers using iMacs. The price of the 2019 mMP has cemented that suspicion in stone.

The next question is why? Why are they forcing us towards iMac?

If you can't figure out the answer on your own, just look at the damn thing. It's a virtually unrepairable, non upgradeable all-in-one computer with a limited lifespan. It's essentially a giant laptop.

Almost nobody hangs on to an iMac for 7 years cuz either the screen is having problems or they've outgrown it and CANT UPGRADE IT.

 

[Derived]

This forum is mostly occupied by users who have bought a mac pro and paid less than $3500. We have an expectation of a certain level of value and a certain target audience based on literally all previous models. I bet it's even more the previous cheesegraters that dominate (could be wrong). Even though we are the majority, we still don't belong here any more than anyone else



How do you figure it's a "good deal?" What's your citation for the price breakdown?



There's been nothing to talk about for 6 years in this forum regarding new Mac Pro news. I assumed it was dead before the previous announcement. If you don't like what most people are talking about in this forum, perhaps it is you who don't belong here?

If most of the people who were in this forum spent most of their time talking about Mac Minis, would that also make it justified and useful? I think not. We don’t need 2 pages of borderline-illiterate, hand-wringing nonsense from people for whom an entry level Mini is vastly too much computer. It’s not useful, it’s not helpful, it *does* clog up the forum, it *does* make it hard to find useful information, it *does* cause consternation, annoyance and frustration, and apart from all of that, it’s highly, highly, highly repetitive. It has no value at all. There have been sensible, critiquing posts made since the announcement. Most do not fall in this category. They’re immature, reactionary nonsense from people who have no idea what they’re talking about. No one’s life is improved by any of it. And it’s growing tiring.

I own a 5,1. And I paid even less than that for one that’s nearly as highly-specced as you can have one. And many days, it is not doing anything that a MacBook Air couldn’t do, more or less...but sometimes, it is used quite heavily, and to its fullest potential. I bought it because it was the most power for the least money I could find in an Apple computer, because I’m nearly a life-long Apple user. I love it. But I am not under any sort of impression that they made this machine *for me*...not even close. It was made to be a cutting-edge tool used by people who earn hefty sums of money pushing these types of machines to their limit every single day. It was not made for someone to putter about with, unless of course they have the money. Certainly not when new. And I sure didn’t expect Apple to build anything like that this time around either. They specifically and expressly stated as much, too. Anyone who was expecting anything wasn’t paying attention even a little to Apple or the industry as a whole.

There are already 10 million parts breakdowns...by that I mean *valid* parts breakdowns by people who know what they hell they’re talking about that indicate that this machine is value for the money. As stated elsewhere...just because *you cannot afford it* or because *you do not need it*...does not mean it’s overpriced. That’s a nonsensical argument. A Bugatti Chiron, which costs more to build than to purchase, is not “overpriced”, if anything it’s massively, massively underpriced. You’d have to be daft to think otherwise. And yet, this is a very similar situation.

Why don’t you go try to build an HP workstation with similar specs and tell us how you get on? I’m very curious. I’m not interested in someone’s “build list” that consists of 4 consumer components supplied by the lowest bidder and a $60 plastic case as an example of why the Mac Pro is overpriced. To carry forward the previous analogy, one might then just as well take a beat-to-death 30 year old Camaro, throw in a supercharged+nitrous junkyard LT engine making somewhere north of 1,000 hp, and then claim it’s a vastly superior car to the Bugatti because it’s less than 1/100 of the price and has the same level of horsepower. Surely you can understand why that’s not the case, right?

There really is no argument to be made here. The machine isn’t overpriced. You have a quarrel with component prices, that’s another matter. But it’s unlikely to change. Chasing that last 2-5% of performance costs all the money. Doing so while being able to support 100% uptime for years at a time being pushed to the limit is even more expensive. That’s why professional hardware costs more than consumer hardware, always has, and always will. That’s not Apple’s fault. That’s just the laws of math, physics and thermodynamics. Unless you’ve found a way around those, I doubt there’s much more to say on the matter.

 

[Macpro2019]

Personally, I will get one, my 5,1 will retire to work as a server. I Run an small Graphic design and 3D design office and im really thankful for the 10 year mark I will hit with my current 5,1 Mac Pro next year. Ive enjoyed this machine, I have two 1080tis on it, usb 3, solid states drives, done the pixlas and bluetooth mods, you name it.

The fact that I can keep using this investment over the foreseeable future is only another reason to upgrade to the 7,1 Mac Pro. That being said, Im not loving the the price increases but I will cover it with a couple of projects. The display, as nice as it is , I can't justify the cost, so it will be a pass for me as of now.

To those people complaining I get you, Apple is doing all sorts of crazy sh*t right now ( mouse on an iPad?? what??) , and who knows, maybe they'll release a parallel cheaper Mac Pro version with just one PCI slot like the leak we saw before, but if by all lights your job doesn't pay for this new machine, you shouldn't get one, it would be nonsensical.

Just my two cents.

Exactly...investment. Also upgradeable.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Can you include a link to this thread in the main post?

That's https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-megathread-plan-your-adventure-here.2184687/

Thanks MisterAndrew

Thanks. I dunno how that one slipped through.
[doublepost=1559970137][/doublepost]Here's an interesting resource for original Mac prices by model. The new Mac Pro isn't the most expensive desktop Apple has produced. The Power Macintosh 9600 in 1997 started out at about the same price adjusted for inflation. Several previous models through the years were a lot more. In 1985 the Macintosh XL priced at $9995 was about $23738 in 2019 dollars. Many of the Quadra models were also expensive, starting at $7200 for the 900 in 1991 which is about $13509 in 2019 dollars. In 1994 the Power Macintosh 8100 was $6500 which is about $11208 in 2019 dollars.

https://everymac.com/global-mac-prices/mac-prices-us-usa-united-states-america.html

 

[slughead]

There are already 10 million parts breakdowns...by that I mean *valid* parts breakdowns by people who know what they hell they’re talking about that indicate that this machine is value for the money.

Okay, if there are "10 million" of them, it shouldn't be too hard to link to one you think is "valid" then, right? I've seen the claims it's a good deal, I'd like YOU to take your best shot. Most of the price comparisons I've seen are deeply flawed.

For instance, How much is it going to cost to get an Applecare tech to come to your business to service your machine? It's included with the HP. I've worked with Applecare before and lost my "Professional computer" to the AppleCare abyss for over two months. HP will have you up and running in a day if it's just a broken part that needs swapping. This is not a valid comparison. Apple sucks for the exact demographic this new machine is made for.

Also, pointing out the obvious: Comparing part numbers is odious and stupid. As an example, the 9900K is better than that 8 Core xeon for most users and costs a fraction as much. For the higher end there's the whole threadripper argument, or the comparison with NVidia CUDA cards with these proprietary "Afterburner" cards et al. However, the parts breakdowns I've seen by people who I think know are quite knowledgeable like Linus Tech Tips suggest the prices are at least 60% higher at the low end--the only price we have presently.

 

[barmann]

If most of the people who were in this forum spent most of their time talking about Mac Minis, would that also make it justified and useful? I think not. We don’t need 2 pages of borderline-illiterate, hand-wringing nonsense from people for whom an entry level Mini is vastly too much computer. It’s not useful, it’s not helpful, it *does* clog up the forum, it *does* make it hard to find useful information, it *does* cause consternation, annoyance and frustration, and apart from all of that, it’s highly, highly, highly repetitive. It has no value at all. There have been sensible, critiquing posts made since the announcement. Most do not fall in this category. They’re immature, reactionary nonsense from people who have no idea what they’re talking about. No one’s life is improved by any of it. And it’s growing tiring.

There are subforums right next door that may be more to your liking, nothing but praise and 'constructive positivism' . Just pick anything that starts with a lower case 'i' .

There really is no argument to be made here. The machine isn’t overpriced. You have a quarrel with component prices, that’s another matter. But it’s unlikely to change. Chasing that last 2-5% of performance costs all the money. Doing so while being able to support 100% uptime for years at a time being pushed to the limit is even more expensive. That’s why professional hardware costs more than consumer hardware, always has, and always will. That’s not Apple’s fault. That’s just the laws of math, physics and thermodynamics. Unless you’ve found a way around those, I doubt there’s much more to say on the matter.

So that's your mature, educated, non-repetitive take on the nMP - The machine isn’t overpriced ?
They say yes, I say no ?

That last 2-5% of performance - I think your are confusing computers with Formula 1 .
Maybe you meant reliability .

Re. quality components, I agree .
The cMP was using server-grade CPUs and ECC RAM back in 2006-2012, and high quality components throughout , in a high quality case . It was professional hardware, and still is .

Now explain the cost of the nMP, and why the same formula , basically the same computer , has increased in price so much ?
Apart from the laws of we-think-we-can get-away-with-this ?
[doublepost=1560015728][/doublepost]

There are already 10 million parts breakdowns...by that I mean *valid* parts breakdowns by people who know what they hell they’re talking about that indicate that this machine is value for the money.

A link is worth a thousand unproven claims .

 

[MisterAndrew]

25 threads covering the exact same topic and growing. Keep up the good work.

 

[barmann]

25 threads covering the exact same topic and growing. Keep up the good work.

I tried, but the mods seem to merge threads only randomly .

 

[MisterAndrew]

I tried, but the mods seem to merge threads only randomly .

Probably because it's too hard to keep up with them all. More every day!

 

[MisterAndrew]

Updated the list to include some of the more recent threads.