Mac Pro Advise

[bayside1]

Hey whats up everyone. I wanted to start a thread because I can't seem to find any new information I am looking for. I know all advise is speculation but just wanted to bounce some ideas off everyone.

I am in desperate need of a 12 core machine and have been patiently waiting for a new Mac Pro update...

1) Thunderbolt in new imacs
2) Final cut pro X which supports 4k footage next month...
3) Lion next month...
4 Sandybridge processors in the new imacs

Does anyone foresee a Mac Pro update next month during WWDC?

Thanks!

 

[nanofrog]

Hey whats up everyone. I wanted to start a thread because I can't seem to find any new information I am looking for. I know all advise is speculation but just wanted to bounce some ideas off everyone.

I am in desperate need of a 12 core machine and have been patiently waiting for a new Mac Pro update...

1) Thunderbolt in new imacs
2) Final cut pro X which supports 4k footage next month...
3) Lion next month...
4 Sandybridge processors in the new imacs

Does anyone foresee a Mac Pro update next month during WWDC?

Thanks!

The LGA2011 CPU's aren't scheduled to be released until Q4 2010, and then they'll need time to get the first run of systems built. So unless they've managed to negotiate with Intel to get parts well before they're scheduled to ship (highly doubtful), it won't be possible.

 

[bayside1]

When to buy?

The LGA2011 CPU's aren't scheduled to be released until Q4 2010, and then they'll need time to get the first run of systems built. So unless they've managed to negotiate with Intel to get parts well before they're scheduled to ship (highly doubtful), it won't be possible.

Thanks for the response! So when to buy? I guess im looking for other people to tell me it would be crazy to spend 5k now and should somehow manage with 4 core i7 for 6 months

 

[bayside1]

mac pro advise

Thanks for the response! So when to buy? I guess im looking for other people to tell me it would be crazy to spend 5k now and should somehow manage with 4 core i7 for 6 months

Another point I wanted to add was that Final Cut Pro X is only $300 and built from the ground up... If it supports 4k footage they are marketing to higher end professionals. FCP use to be $5000 per license. Why wouldn't they pre-install FCP on new mac pros as intensive to push more pro models out the door. They don't have to wait for new processors to make an upgrade...

 

[nanofrog]

Thanks for the response! So when to buy? I guess im looking for other people to tell me it would be crazy to spend 5k now and should somehow manage with 4 core i7 for 6 months

It comes down to how bad you truly need a new machine. If you can hold off, then do so, and see what's announced to see if it's worth it vs. the current system (which you may then be able to find at a discount).

But if you're earning a living with the system, and having it or not is the difference between profit and losing business, buy now and be done with it.

BTW, in terms of a desktop only, Thunderbolt isn't really useful. PCIe slots can allow for faster throughputs and less expensive solutions than TB based peripherals (i.e. if eSATA's fine, then get an eSATA card), as the available information shows TB is more expensive than initially expected. For example, available information puts the TB chip cost at $90 to a manufacturer, which will push MSRP's quite a bit. In terms of I/O throughputs exceeding TB, you can get faster drive throughputs via a hardware RAID controller and enough drives (right configuration for the requirement), better video bandwidth with other interconnect standards, ...

Now if you mean to share high speed peripherals (example) with both a laptop (location video capture for example) and a desktop, then having a PCIe TB card (or a desktop system with built-in TB) would have merit. Matrox has announced a card (not sure if it's actually available, but the MSRP is $299 USD - source).

As per the newer SB Xeons that will be used, their biggest advantages are the potential for slightly faster clock speeds, and improved system I/O between the CPU and both the memory controller and PCIe lanes (take a look here for more details). No release of any price information yet, but I wouldn't expect it to be inexpensive in terms of quantity pricing (more expensive than current offerings due to the larger pin count on the socket = more complicated CPU). Where it can work out, is if you're able to utilize all the cores fully.

 

[iBookG4user]

Thanks for the response! So when to buy? I guess im looking for other people to tell me it would be crazy to spend 5k now and should somehow manage with 4 core i7 for 6 months

I just bought the current 12-core model about a month ago, I say go for it. If you need it now, buy it now because you'll be waiting months for an update. Especially if you're going to be using the Mac Pro to make money, the time saved now will help to offset the cost of the computer.

 

[bayside1]

It comes down to how bad you truly need a new machine. If you can hold off, then do so, and see what's announced to see if it's worth it vs. the current system (which you may then be able to find at a discount).

But if you're earning a living with the system, and having it or not is the difference between profit and losing business, buy now and be done with it.

BTW, in terms of a desktop only, Thunderbolt isn't really useful. PCIe slots can allow for faster throughputs and less expensive solutions than TB based peripherals (i.e. if eSATA's fine, then get an eSATA card), as the available information shows TB is more expensive than initially expected. For example, available information puts the TB chip cost at $90 to a manufacturer, which will push MSRP's quite a bit. In terms of I/O throughputs exceeding TB, you can get faster drive throughputs via a hardware RAID controller and enough drives (right configuration for the requirement), better video bandwidth with other interconnect standards, ...

Now if you mean to share high speed peripherals (example) with both a laptop (location video capture for example) and a desktop, then having a PCIe TB card (or a desktop system with built-in TB) would have merit. Matrox has announced a card (not sure if it's actually available, but the MSRP is $299 USD - source).

As per the newer SB Xeons that will be used, their biggest advantages are the potential for slightly faster clock speeds, and improved system I/O between the CPU and both the memory controller and PCIe lanes (take a look here for more details). No release of any price information yet, but I wouldn't expect it to be inexpensive in terms of quantity pricing (more expensive than current offerings due to the larger pin count on the socket = more complicated CPU). Where it can work out, is if you're able to utilize all the cores fully.

Thanks NanoFrog. I appreciate your advice.

 

[nanofrog]

Thanks NanoFrog. I appreciate your advice.

NP.

How bad do you really need a machine?

 

[bayside1]

NP.

How bad do you really need a machine?

I am a compositor for a Visual effects house on feature films. I am currently working on my own computer which is a MBP 4 core i7. It deals with Nuke, C4D, and Maya just fine but I find that half my week I am waiting on renders or if my Nuke scripts get crazy the machine lags and I am just yearning for the next step with my apple purchase. The house I work for has great machines but I really cant stand working on PCs... So anyways now that I have to cash just really hoping that there will be a new update next month and wanted everyones advice. (I was going to get the 12 core for work and bring my MBP back home since I don't have a machine at home anymore.

 

[bayside1]

I just bought the current 12-core model about a month ago, I say go for it. If you need it now, buy it now because you'll be waiting months for an update. Especially if you're going to be using the Mac Pro to make money, the time saved now will help to offset the cost of the computer.

Nice! what do you mainly use it for?

 

[nanofrog]

I am a compositor for a Visual effects house on feature films. I am currently working on my own computer which is a MBP 4 core i7. It deals with Nuke, C4D, and Maya just fine but I find that half my week I am waiting on renders or if my Nuke scripts get crazy the machine lags and I am just yearning for the next step with my apple purchase. The house I work for has great machines but I really cant stand working on PCs... So anyways now that I have to cash just really hoping that there will be a new update next month and wanted everyones advice. (I was going to get the 12 core for work and bring my MBP back home since I don't have a machine at home anymore.

Ah, OK. A laptop isn't sufficient for that heavy a load (the disk I/O alone sucks, and you can't stuff enough memory in it either). The occasional home movie OTOH, is another matter (they can wait on it).

The MP is definitely the way to go IMO due to the expansion (ability to address the I/O bottlenecks), even with the iMac's out now (presume you can't deal with a fixed GPU and glossy monitor).

So are you covering the cost of the system that you'll end up with, or is the company going to cover it?

 

[iBookG4user]

Nice! what do you mainly use it for?

It is mainly used for professional digital photography and creating large panoramas. I was struggling along on a MacBook Pro as well until I got the Mac Pro.

And from what it sounds like you use the computer for you'd see the benefit of buying it now and using it rather than staying put on your current computer until the update comes out.

 

[bayside1]

Ah, OK. A laptop isn't sufficient for that heavy a load (the disk I/O alone sucks, and you can't stuff enough memory in it either). The occasional home movie OTOH, is another matter (they can wait on it).

The MP is definitely the way to go IMO due to the expansion (ability to address the I/O bottlenecks), even with the iMac's out now (presume you can't deal with a fixed GPU and glossy monitor).

So are you covering the cost of the system that you'll end up with, or is the company going to cover it?

I would be fronting the cost, since I would own it. My company has experimental 16 core machines, 8 gb ram that they provided. They work great in terms of speed but I also spend a lot of time on the OS, emailing, and accessing networks. I also work 60-70 hours a week and I live on the machine and CANT stand windows 7 or vista... so thats why I brought my own system. Definitely don't want to deal with a fixed GPU. I don't mind the glossy monitor at all. I actually prefer it. I guess my stress is coming from I don't have a computer at home now, want to purchase the "big dog" for work and bring my MBP home for everyday use. Just don't want to look like an ****** buying one now and a new update soon.

 

[bayside1]

It is mainly used for professional digital photography and creating large panoramas. I was struggling along on a MacBook Pro as well until I got the Mac Pro.

And from what it sounds like you use the computer for you'd see the benefit of buying it now and using it rather than staying put on your current computer until the update comes out.

Yeah my buddy has one... amazing machine. Thanks man.

 

[nanofrog]

I would be fronting the cost, since I would own it. My company has experimental 16 core machines, 8 gb ram that they provided. They work great in terms of speed but I also spend a lot of time on the OS, emailing, and accessing networks. I also work 60-70 hours a week and I live on the machine and CANT stand windows 7 or vista... so thats why I brought my own system. Definitely don't want to deal with a fixed GPU. I don't mind the glossy monitor at all. I actually prefer it. I guess my stress is coming from I don't have a computer at home now, want to purchase the "big dog" for work and bring my MBP home for everyday use. Just don't want to look like an ****** buying one now and a new update soon.

As long as you own it and you're fine with using your own equipment for the job, then it's not an issue.

As per making a mistake, I don't think so (SB won't be that much faster - synthetics will look nice, but the software you'll be using won't make use of the memory channel configurations, but will need sufficient capacity).

Where all of this can get expensive though, is the upgrades, particularly storage and networking (no idea what your company runs - DAS or SAN for example).

BTW, if you look at the lower right hand side of the posts, you'll see a smaller image next to the one that says Quote (looks like a sheet of paper with " on it). Click on the small box/s, and finally Quote on the last post you wish to respond to, and it will give you multiple quotes in a single post (keeps the mods happy ).

 

[bayside1]

As long as you own it and you're fine with using your own equipment for the job, then it's not an issue.

As per making a mistake, I don't think so (SB won't be that much faster - synthetics will look nice, but the software you'll be using won't make use of the memory channel configurations, but will need sufficient capacity).

Where all of this can get expensive though, is the upgrades, particularly storage and networking (no idea what your company runs - DAS or SAN for example).

BTW, if you look at the lower right hand side of the posts, you'll see a smaller image next to the one that says Quote (looks like a sheet of paper with " on it). Click on the small box/s, and finally Quote on the last post you wish to respond to, and it will give you multiple quotes in a single post (keeps the mods happy ).

ha... Thanks man. Yeah I am not huge in the threads... I appreciate the advise. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Guess we will have to wait for next month before making the decision

 

[nanofrog]

ha... Thanks man. Yeah I am not huge in the threads... I appreciate the advise. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Guess we will have to wait for next month before making the decision

Don't rush it if you can hold off a bit (make sure you put in the time to research the upgrade requirements). Storage will be a major one IMO.

BTW, I've presumed you can actually utilize all 12 cores, but it would be in your wallet's best interest to make sure the software you'll be using can (some may be limited to a fixed core count form of multi-threading, such as Photoshop, or is even single threaded). Other details as to how many instances/projects may be open simultaneously (even the number of layers and filters can matter).

The reason for all of this, is I don't like seeing users waste money on gear that won't actually perform as they expect (total overkill <i.e. MP just to browse the web and check email> or essentially useless for the task, such as buying a nice system, but not address the relevant bottlenecks - I see this with storage configurations all the time).

Just a thought, particularly as this will be out of your pocket.

 

[bayside1]

As long as you own it and you're fine with using your own equipment for the job, then it's not an issue.

As per making a mistake, I don't think so (SB won't be that much faster - synthetics will look nice, but the software you'll be using won't make use of the memory channel configurations, but will need sufficient capacity).

Where all of this can get expensive though, is the upgrades, particularly storage and networking (no idea what your company runs - DAS or SAN for example).

BTW, if you look at the lower right hand side of the posts, you'll see a smaller image next to the one that says Quote (looks like a sheet of paper with " on it). Click on the small box/s, and finally Quote on the last post you wish to respond to, and it will give you multiple quotes in a single post (keeps the mods happy ).

Don't rush it if you can hold off a bit (make sure you put in the time to research the upgrade requirements). Storage will be a major one IMO.

BTW, I've presumed you can actually utilize all 12 cores, but it would be in your wallet's best interest to make sure the software you'll be using can (some may be limited to a fixed core count form of multi-threading, such as Photoshop, or is even single threaded). Other details as to how many instances/projects may be open simultaneously (even the number of layers and filters can matter).

The reason for all of this, is I don't like seeing users waste money on gear that won't actually perform as they expect (total overkill <i.e. MP just to browse the web and check email> or essentially useless for the task, such as buying a nice system, but not address the relevant bottlenecks - I see this with storage configurations all the time).

Just a thought, particularly as this will be out of your pocket.

Oh of course, I could care less about adobe. I'm not worried about work with AE, PS etc. Its rendering power with C4d and Nuke. The time I will save with processing renders outweighs the 5k cost of the machine.

 

[bayside1]

Oh of course, I could care less about adobe. I'm not worried about work with AE, PS etc. Its rendering power with C4d and Nuke. The time I will save with processing renders outweighs the 5k cost of the machine.

Im not really even worried about my current machine being able to hold up it's all the R&D work and trail and error with rendering. Having more power allows me to push creativity with a little more ease. When you start to get render heavy it's easy to hit a wall when your machine takes 30+ min to render a single frame...

 

[nanofrog]

Oh of course, I could care less about adobe. I'm not worried about work with AE, PS etc. Its rendering power with C4d and Nuke. The time I will save with processing renders outweighs the 5k cost of the machine.

I used it as an example, as I wasn't sure if you touched it or not (CS is popular after all).

I'm not really even worried about my current machine being able to hold up it's all the R&D work and trail and error with rendering. Having more power allows me to push creativity with a little more ease. When you start to get render heavy it's easy to hit a wall when your machine takes 30+ min to render a single frame...

I definitely understand the need of getting the work done quickly (allows you to meet deadlines, and earn more money in a given period of time due to the faster turn-around times). As they say, time is money.

I was just wanting to make sure that this was actually the case, as well as get you to consider the entire cost (machine + upgrades + software, which I presume you'll also have to pay for). You could easily be looking at ~$12k + USD all in (say $5k on the machine, $5k in upgrades, and at least $2k for software, and that can get higher quite easily - not sure what Nuke and CD4 license fees are, or if there's another application suite or two you may need).

 

[bayside1]

Oh of course, I could care less about adobe. I'm not worried about work with AE, PS etc. Its rendering power with C4d and Nuke. The time I will save with processing renders outweighs the 5k cost of the machine.

I used it as an example, as I wasn't sure if you touched it or not (CS is popular after all).


I definitely understand the need of getting the work done quickly (allows you to meet deadlines, and earn more money in a given period of time due to the faster turn-around times = more projects per some unit time = more money over that same period of unit time). As they say, time is money.

I was just wanting to make sure that this was actually the case, as well as get you to consider the entire cost (machine + upgrades + software, which I presume you'll also have to pay for). You could easily be looking at ~$12k + USD all in (say $5k on the machine, $5k in upgrades, and at least $2k for software, and that can get higher quite easily - not sure what Nuke and CD4 license fees are, or if there's another application suite or two you may need).

Software cost and additional Ram is taken care of from my company.

 

[nanofrog]

Software cost and additional Ram is taken care of from my company.

Nice!
But what about the storage upgrades you'll need?

I ask, as that can cost as much, or more than the machine. Proper hardware RAID isn't cheap, which you'll need at this level (software RAID is too dangerous, and what the MP can do <0/1/10> without a RAID card <it's software based>, is limiting anyway).

This is why I previously asked what they currently use for storage (DAS or SAN). NAS is another possibility, but it tends to be rather slow (i.e. usually done via 1G Ethernet; even with port bonding, it's only good for ~200MB/s when all the bandwidth is dedicated to a single machine). From what you describe, you'll need both speed and redundancy (don't want to lose an important project due to running a stripe set for example).

 

[chaosbunny]

In my opinion you should just go and buy it. Like others have already mentioned, and I have read multiple times, the next generation of processors for the Mac Pro will not be out before Q4/2011. With this knowledge, just look at the last Mac Pro updates - about 1,5 years in between. With the last ones out in 08/2010 this means 12/2011-01/2012 is a likely timeframe, but given Apples lack of interest in its Mac Pro customers it could also be 03/2012 or later. If you decide to play the waiting game now, you could play for more than half a year - loosing productivity.

If you decide now to wait a month - with it being highly unlikely that something happens to the Mac Pro given the mentioned lack of processors - you'll end up saying, well, I could also wait until autumn, maybe they'll get new processors early, or Q4, or christmas, and then early 2012 ...

 

[Bear]

I am in desperate need of a 12 core machine and have been patiently waiting for a new Mac Pro update...

1) Thunderbolt in new imacs
2) Final cut pro X which supports 4k footage next month...
3) Lion next month...
4 Sandybridge processors in the new imacs

Does anyone foresee a Mac Pro update next month during WWDC?

Not really, but anything could happen. As it sounds like it's impacting what you work on, I wouldn't wait too long. WWDC isn't that far off and you could always order the new system when the new FCP is available.

While Apple has been know to get processors from Intel early, I wouldn't expect it to be more than a couple of weeks early. So the estimates other people give are probably accurate.


In short, you're probably better off buying now, but if waiting a few weeks will make you feel better, do that.