Resolved Mac Pro desire......😍

[MarkC426]

I have been backwards and forwards recently between M2 Mac Studio or 2019 Mac Pro (from refurb store).
Today I visited an Apple store to check out the new offerings, I have never seen a 2019 Mac Pro in the 'flesh', and it was love at first sight.
Ok the one on display was an M2 but externally looks the same.....

Between the supposed 2x the speed of a 28 core mp for an M2 Studio Ultra, but then the upgrade ability of the 7.1 (which would only be 8 core, to keep the price down). I really can't decide, and the clock is ticking.
I don't particularly need massive cores, and I have always loved the 5.1 for upgrades.
Surely an M2 (or M1) would get extremely hot if processing for hours on end.

I have posted 'pro' studio comments in other threads, but hypocritically I am really drawn to the 7.1.

Couple of 7.1 questions:
1.can you install multiple bootable os's on different drives.
2.I read somewhere you couldn't replace the dual ssd due to the T2 chip...?
3.does it suffer from the same NVRAM corruption issues as a 5.1 after 7-8 years of use.
4.can I put my sonnet tempo cards in it.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I have been backwards and forwards recently between M2 Mac Studio or 2019 Mac Pro (from refurb store).
Today I visited an Apple store to check out the new offerings, I have never seen a 2019 Mac Pro in the 'flesh', and it was love at first sight.
Ok the one on display was an M2 but externally looks the same.....

Between the supposed 2x the speed of a 28 core mp for an M2 Studio Ultra, but then the upgrade ability of the 7.1 (which would only be 8 core, to keep the price down). I really can't decide, and the clock is ticking.
I don't particularly need massive cores, and I have always loved the 5.1 for upgrades.
Surely an M2 (or M1) would get extremely hot if processing for hours on end.

I have posted 'pro' studio comments in other threads, but hypocritically I am really drawn to the 7.1.

The 7,1/2019 Mac Pro is a good machine. I can see the allure to owning and using one. However, unless you have either (a) Intel-specific workloads or (b) a need for the things that the 2019 Mac Pro has that the 2023 Mac Pro doesn't have (i.e. Radeon video cards, expandable RAM; RAM greater than 192GB), the 2023 model will be a much better buy.

Then again, if you do not need PCIe slots nor the added I/O (1 extra 10GbE port; 2 extra Thunderbolt ports; 1 extra HDMI port; internal USB-A port; 2 internal SATA ports), then you really might as well just save yourself the $3000 and get an M2 Ultra Mac Studio.

Couple of 7.1 questions:
1.can you install multiple bootable os's on different drives.

You can. Though, by default, the T2 will be set to not allow booting from external media. You get none of the protections of the T2 on non-T2 drives. I'm not sure if macOS will install on a drive that isn't the T2-controlled drive. But I see no reason why any other drive won't work with any other OS with the right options set (or, more accurately, disabled) in the Startup Security Utility.

2.I read somewhere you couldn't replace the dual ssd due to the T2 chip...?

You can. Apple sells two sets of drive kits. One for the 2019 Mac Pro and one for the 2023 Mac Pro. The kits for one do not work for the other and vice versa.

In the case of the 2019 Mac Pro, upon replacing the SSD modules, you will need to put the T2 chip into DFU mode and perform a restore of it using Apple Configurator 2 running from another Mac.

In the case of the 2023 Mac Pro, upon replacing the SSD modules, you will put the entire Mac Pro into DFU mode and perform a restore using Apple Configurator 2 running from another Mac.

There are no aftermarket modules for sale.

3.does it suffer from the same NVRAM corruption issues as a 5.1 after 7-8 years of use.

Unsure. I'd guess not. But, then again, the 2019 Mac Pro isn't 7 years old yet; so no one will be able to tell you how it ages until the earliest ones do.

4.can I put my sonnet tempo cards in it.

I'd consult Sonnet on that one. There ought to not be a slot compatibility issue. PCIe 3.0 (in use in the 2019 Mac Pro) is backwards compatible. As is PCIe 4.0 (in use in the 2023 Mac Pro). If there's any incompatibility, it'd probably be with software.

 

[deconstruct60]

2.I read somewhere you couldn't replace the dual ssd due to the T2 chip...?

It is really not dual SSDs. The T2 contains the actual SSD controller. The storage "Flash" NAND ( incomplete SSD... just NAND modules) are on separate card. There is only one actual SSD there. Just split into 3 ( or 2 in 512 case) physical parts. NAND wears over time. So over 5-7 year lifetime those could be replaced. Some shops have policies that have to shred/destroy drives when retire a system ( even cypto isn't good enough).

Very long term issues:

First is that when Apple doesn't need those circa 2017-2018 SSD module parts anymore , nobody else is going to be making these. Additionally, the modules nominally come in pairs. Not completely identical and interchangeable.

Second, The SSD controller keeps track of the wear patterns and 'bad cells' metadata. Those modules are just 'dumb' modules. Highly likely they have no knowledge of just how degraded they are. So the 2nd hand market of moderatel-heavliy used second hand SSD modules is likely dubious on to be in. Those modules are replacable in PAIRS and designed to be replaced as "new drives" ; not old stuff can keep using. Folks who treat these modules as if there were SSDs are probably going to do bad things over the long term. If pull a module from a Mac and move it to another.. that data is all 'toast' (just pragmatically garbage). Actual SSDs don't do that.


Third, you need to second Mac running Configurator to DFU new fresh modules into a new drive. Once DFU then the data on the old modules is also toast ( the encryption key is gone). You need real backups. To update, you need a complete backup before swap the module pairs.

 

[flaubert]

Related question: what Mac Pro 7,1 parts and/or useful accessories are at risk of going 'unobtainium'? Kind of like the graphics cards of a 6,1 being a very critical and low supply item?

I, too, have looked at buying a 7,1 in these last few days.

 

[MarkC426]

Though, by default, the T2 will be set to not allow booting from external media. You get none of the protections of the T2 on non-T2 drives. I'm not sure if macOS will install on a drive that isn't the T2-controlled drive. But I see no reason why any other drive won't work with any other OS with the right options set (or, more accurately, disabled) in the Startup Security Utility.

This could be a deal breaker.....
Was hoping for a similar experience to my 5.1, where if the system drive starts playing up (and Apple no longer sell SSD modules for the 7.1) I can clone to another volume (sata SSD or PCIe NVMe) and reboot.

Plus I wouldn't have another supported Mac to run DFU mode.

 

[avro707]

This could be a deal breaker.....
Was hoping for a similar experience to my 5.1, where if the system drive starts playing up (and Apple no longer sell SSD modules for the 7.1) I can clone to another volume (sata SSD or PCIe NVMe) and reboot.

Plus I wouldn't have another supported Mac to run DFU mode.

Recommend you don’t get a 7,1 or any Apple machine.

The safer option would be a HP Z8 G5 which I looked at yesterday with USD$10,000 discount on what was normal $24K machine.

Or alternatively look at Lenovo PX. These are closest to 5,1.

With 7,1 your GPUs are limited to older AMD Radeon up to 6900 In MacOS (no limitations in windows) and the inbuilt SSDs are a pain.

If supported GPUs go out of stock and SSDs vanish it’s a big trouble.

I use Windows on a Sonnet PCI-e card with NVME drives on my 7,1.

 

[MarkC426]

Thanks for the advice, I like MacOS too much to move to Windows though.

I think these points have convinced me a Studio is the way forward (for myself)....

 

[CanPhantom]

This could be a deal breaker.....
Was hoping for a similar experience to my 5.1, where if the system drive starts playing up (and Apple no longer sell SSD modules for the 7.1) I can clone to another volume (sata SSD or PCIe NVMe) and reboot.

Plus I wouldn't have another supported Mac to run DFU mode.

You can boot MacOS from an nvme drive. Setting it up and keeping it up to date can be an enormous pain though. You can also boot other OSes from them. But you cannot run a 7,1 without the system drive. Whether that system drive has to be functional or not, it's hard to say.

Personally, I grabbed a drive upgrade quickly after I bought mine (couldn't afford the purchase-time upgrade at the time), but kept the original drive in a box just in case the new sticks ever go bad.

 

[MisterAndrew]

It’s hard to answer questions for others, but if it helps I would never trade my 7,1 for a Studio. Some people have. If a Studio is better for what you do with it then that’s better, but if you value the modular design with expandability then the 7,1 is a good choice. Grab it with AppleCare+ and you won’t have to worry about replacing bespoke parts.

 

[SDAVE]

I would not get the 7,1 if I were you even though I have it.

Most likely they will stop macOS updates by 2024/2025...and then you have to use a hacked version of macOS to make it work and that's not a good idea for a production machine.

I would get a M1 Mac Studio if I were you (I see them in deep discounts now) and then get a 2024/2025 Mac Pro with M3/M4 if you really want the expandability.

Maybe by then we will have official ARM windows support.

For PC/Windows, I would suggest building an SFFPC or something.

I personally do boot into Windows 11 for gaming on the 7,1, and it works great, but down the line I have to go the M route so I have to find another solution such as a new PC with a KVM.

 

[MarkC426]

I see in your signature you have a Sonnet Fusion Flex.

Ideally I would want 1 HDD, and at least 4 sata SSD's (currently have 7 drives in my 5.1).
I could get the HDD and 2 SSD's in the Fusion.
Can you install Sata or NVMe drives on a PCIe card?

Machine is not for production/professional work, purely hobbyist.

Edit: Sonnets site says the Tempo cards work in 2019mp.

In the words of Sheldon Cooper....this is a sticky wicket...🤯
Whether to go for an older machine with internal storage space or Studio with loads of external boxes....😵‍💫

 

[SDAVE]

I see in your signature you have a Sonnet Fusion Flex.

Ideally I would want 1 HDD, and at least 4 sata SSD's (currently have 7 drives in my 5.1).
I could get the HDD and 2 SSD's in the Fusion.
Can you install Sata or NVMe drives on a PCIe card?

Machine is not for production/professional work, purely hobbyist.

I currently have 1HDD (8TB for Time Machine in macOS) and an SSD in the Fusion for a 2nd drive for Windows 11. Windows 11 is installed on a PCIe NVME.

You can fit 2 HDDs and 1 SSD in the Fusion. Or you can install 3 SSDs on the Fusion

This is a production machine for me, im 99% in macOS. The only time I boot into Win11 is for games late at night (which isnt that often nowadays)

 

[flowrider]

Simple answers to this OP's questions:

1. 1.can you install multiple bootable os's on different drives. - Yes! I have Ten SSDs in my 7,1. The OEM Apple (that I do not use.) Six mounted on two PCI cards and three 2.5" SSDs mounted in an internal cage. I have five bootable drives. The Apple drive, four of my SSDs
mounted on cards (My Sonoma boot drive and a backup and my Ventura boot drive and a backup.)

2.I read somewhere you couldn't replace the dual ssd due to the T2 chip...? You can, but it needs another Mac and IMO, not worth doing.

3.does it suffer from the same NVRAM corruption issues as a 5.1 after 7-8 years of use. Been fine for me.

4.can I put my sonnet tempo cards in it. Yes!

Lou

 

[MisterAndrew]

The firmware is on the Apple solid state storage modules as far as I know, so no need to worry about corrupted firmware running Windows. I've tried both a PCIe NVMe SSD and the built-in Apple storage as the boot drive and the Apple storage works best. You can't let the computer sleep if you use a PCIe SSD as the boot drive because it cuts power to it during sleep. I don't let it sleep now that I'm using Apple's storage for the boot drive either though.

Also consider, if it matters to you, that the Mac Pro will always impress people if they see it. The Studio is a boring little box probably nobody will notice. AppleCare+ is also less expensive for the Studio, because there isn't much to it.

 

[MoonCakeTropics]

This could be a deal breaker.....
Was hoping for a similar experience to my 5.1, where if the system drive starts playing up (and Apple no longer sell SSD modules for the 7.1) I can clone to another volume (sata SSD or PCIe NVMe) and reboot.

Plus I wouldn't have another supported Mac to run DFU mode.

A bit of palter in those answers. You can totally boot from a 3rd party drive. 3rd party drives are faster. The 'protections" of the T2 are laughable. The T2 is garbage better avoided as it seems to cause more trouble than solve problems. Been using the 7,1 with way better/faster internal storage solutions for years. Not an issue.

 

[impulse462]

A bit of palter in those answers. You can totally boot from a 3rd party drive. 3rd party drives are faster. The 'protections" of the T2 are laughable. The T2 is garbage better avoided as it seems to cause more trouble than solve problems. Been using the 7,1 with way better/faster internal storage solutions for years. Not an issue.

Yeah i second this. booting linux off faster nvme and have had 0 issues the entire time. At this point apples nvme storage is a deadweight for me.

 

[blackquartz]

Simple answers to this OP's questions:

1. 1.can you install multiple bootable os's on different drives. - Yes! I have Ten SSDs in my 7,1. The OEM Apple (that I do not use.) Six mounted on two PCI cards and three 2.5" SSDs mounted in an internal cage. I have five bootable drives. The Apple drive, four of my SSDs
mounted on cards (My Sonoma boot drive and a backup and my Ventura boot drive and a backup.)

2.I read somewhere you couldn't replace the dual ssd due to the T2 chip...? You can, but it needs another Mac and IMO, not worth doing.

3.does it suffer from the same NVRAM corruption issues as a 5.1 after 7-8 years of use. Been fine for me.

4.can I put my sonnet tempo cards in it. Yes!

Lou

Hello.

Is it Possible to boot macOS from a pice drive using raid? what are the alternatives to faster bootdrives for MacOs Using a 7,1?

 

[Yebubbleman]

This could be a deal breaker.....
Was hoping for a similar experience to my 5.1, where if the system drive starts playing up (and Apple no longer sell SSD modules for the 7.1) I can clone to another volume (sata SSD or PCIe NVMe) and reboot.

Plus I wouldn't have another supported Mac to run DFU mode.

You only really NEED the second Mac to restore via DFU mode if there's an issue. Personally, I really like restoring my Apple Silicon Macs via Configurator 2. But, if there's no issue, it's not a must. Similarly, you ought to not need to do it on a T2 Mac unless there's a problem (though it's often handy to resolve minor annoyances as well). Find a friend with a USB-C MacBook, have them download Configurator 2, borrow it for 45 minutes and you're pretty much good.

I have not personally booted a 2019 Mac Pro off of a different volume running a different version of macOS, so I cannot attest to the nuances. In theory, it ought to be possible so long as you configure the Startup Security Utility to boot from external drives (as all things T2, including the T2 specific version of the Startup Security Utility treats any drive that isn't T2-controlled storage as external drives).

I would not get the 7,1 if I were you even though I have it.

Most likely they will stop macOS updates by 2024/2025...and then you have to use a hacked version of macOS to make it work and that's not a good idea for a production machine.

I would get a M1 Mac Studio if I were you (I see them in deep discounts now) and then get a 2024/2025 Mac Pro with M3/M4 if you really want the expandability.

Maybe by then we will have official ARM windows support.

1. We're probably not going to have direct booting support for Windows. The amount of work needed to get Windows 11 for ARM64 to function bare metal on Apple Silicon Mac hardware would be staggering compared to what was needed to make Windows XP-10 for x86 run on Intel Macs. "Official Support" will be in the form of Microsoft blessing things like VMware Fusion to virtualize Windows 11 for ARM64 in the way that they already did with Parallels. Windows 11 for ARM64 VMs running in either hypervisor will be much faster than the average ARM64 Windows PC anyway, especially with beefier Apple SoCs.

2. I agree that 7,1 is not a good buy for longevity of running macOS, simply because Apple has every reason to move quicker to drop Intel support now that they no longer sell new Intel Macs. I do not think that we'll see new versions not support it for at least another two years (Apple, as of Ventura, seems to be dropping Intel Macs one year at a time). And, at least for the time being, if running x86 operating systems (whether through native boot solutions like Boot Camp or through a hypervisor) alongside macOS is mission critical and/or you need things that only work on Intel and/or you NEED more than 192GB of RAM or a traditional graphics card, then 7,1 is sort of a must. But, barring those things, yeah, not exactly the best pick for macOS longevity at this point in time.

The firmware is on the Apple solid state storage modules as far as I know, so no need to worry about corrupted firmware running Windows.

That's only true of Apple Silicon Mac firmware (iBoot). Technically, the T2's iBoot is located on the modules, but that only manages bridgeOS (the T2's OS) and is not the same as the Intel Mac's UEFI implementation.

I've tried both a PCIe NVMe SSD and the built-in Apple storage as the boot drive and the Apple storage works best. You can't let the computer sleep if you use a PCIe SSD as the boot drive because it cuts power to it during sleep. I don't let it sleep now that I'm using Apple's storage for the boot drive either though.

That's super interesting insight! Seriously! Thanks for that!

Also consider, if it matters to you, that the Mac Pro will always impress people if they see it. The Studio is a boring little box probably nobody will notice. AppleCare+ is also less expensive for the Studio, because there isn't much to it.

Eh...practicality ought to take precedence here. If you need PCIe slots, Mac Pro, all the way. If you can get along fine without them and/or are fine with what an M2 Ultra Mac Studio provides, then there's no real practical benefit to buying a Mac Pro.

Though, I've started to hear more buzz about...the buzzing noise that some of them have. Hopefully they've rectified that with the M2 Max/Ultra models.

 

[flaubert]

Most likely they will stop macOS updates by 2024/2025...and then you have to use a hacked version of macOS to make it work and that's not a good idea for a production machine.

I don't think that there will be even an option to used hacked versions of MacOS. That was possible in the past only because Apple continued to issue newer versions of the operating system for other products within the x86 architecture. The 2019 Mac Pro is the last product that Apple sold with an Intel processor, so once they drop support for it, that's lights out, Gracie.

 

[SDAVE]

I don't think that there will be even an option to used hacked versions of MacOS. That was possible in the past only because Apple continued to issue newer versions of the operating system for other products within the x86 architecture. The 2019 Mac Pro is the last product that Apple sold with an Intel processor, so once they drop support for it, that's lights out, Gracie.

I had a very souped up watercooled Hackintosh (for work!) between 2015-2018 when Apple didn't release any Mac Pros. Let me tell you it's a total waste of time. I spent thousands of hours perfecting OpenCore. That time wasted could've been spent on more interesting things like hanging out with family and friends or going outside

 

[MarkC426]

Ok......got an M2 Max Studio today, so dilemma over....🥳