MBP 2012 HDD/SDD question

[sfphoto]

I installed a newer OS on an SSD 2.5in SATA external. Disk speed is +/-3x faster than the internal HDD.

The external SSD is SATA 6Gbps while the bus speed on the machine is 4Gbps.

My question-
Would an internal SSD be similarly fast (i.e putting the SATA I have inside) or even faster?

 

[Juicy Box]

The external SSD is SATA 6Gbps while the bus speed on the machine is 4Gbps.

It is 5Gbps on the USB3 bus.

Would an internal SSD be similarly fast (i.e putting the SATA I have inside) or even faster?

Depending on what you are currently getting, it would probably about 10% to 30% faster, but mostly noticeable when transferring files.

There is an added benefit of using a SSD internally, there is TRIM support. Since your Mac came with a HDD, you have to enable it, but it is super easy, just copy and paste onto terminal.

Ideally, you would want to install it internally.

Even if you plan on installing the SSD internally, I always recommend using the SSD externally first to make sure it works and has no issues. Install the OS, migrate your files, test it, and if all is good, then do the internal swap. You already did the first part.

 

[DeltaMac]

How is your external drive connected to your MBPro?
USB connection?
Even though your actual drive is SATA, the USB bus ultimately determines the speed of the disk.
So, USB 3.0 on your MBPro will be limited to 5 Gb/s
Moving the SATA drive to the internal bus will result in faster response. As stated above, most noticeable in file transfers--and boot should be faster, just generally more responsive.
Oh, and you won't have that drive hanging off the side either

 

[Juicy Box]

Have you tested the speeds of your USB SSD? Or you just estimating how much faster it is?

I like using AmorphousDiskMark for testing drive speeds. It gives both sequential and random speeds.

Disk speed is +/-3x faster than the internal HDD.

Slightly off topic, but something related to comparing internal HDDs to external SSDs.

I have used SSDs inside external FireWire 800 drives on older Macs that only had USB2, and while the internal HDD technically was faster than the SSD by about 100%, this was only with sequential speeds.

The random speeds with the external FW800 SSD was several times faster than the random speeds on the internal HDD. This made the FW800 SSD "feel" faster when using the Mac. Files and apps would open much quicker. There response of the OS was quicker, and the OS booted quicker with the FW SSD.

I have also tried this with a SSD with FW800 and USB2, and had a similar experience, just not as dramatic as the FW800.

Basically what I am trying to say is that when most people say their Mac feels faster after switching to a SSD, that is mostly due to the much better random speeds.

 

[sfphoto]

How is your external drive connected to your MBPro?

USB3
I cloned the internal to the external then updated the OS so I could try out my old programs before putting internally.

Thanks for all the comments!

 

[sfphoto]

I have used SSDs inside external FireWire 800 drives on older Macs that only had USB2, and while the internal HDD technically was faster than the SSD by about 100%, this was only with sequential speeds.

Have a FW800 case too but have not tried w/ an SSD yet.
I have a 2010 and 2012 Mini, bus speeds are 1Gbps and 4Gbps respectively so putting an SSD into the 2010 would seem pretty pointless.

I read that Intel says that 5GT/s listed bus speed for most 2012-2015 Macs has an 80% data transfer rate so the actual Gbps is only 4.
I noticed in 2018 the bus speed for the MBP is 8GT/s (+/-6.4Gbps).

 

[Juicy Box]

Have a FW800 case too but have not tried w/ an SSD yet.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting for you to use a FW800 enclosure, I was just illustrating the dramatic real world difference between a technically faster internal HDD and an external FW800 SSD.

I have a 2010 and 2012 Mini, bus speeds are 1Gbps and 4Gbps respectively so putting an SSD into the 2010 would seem pretty pointless.

Definitely not pointless, maybe you didn't understand what I was saying about random speeds, and how even when the max speeds are limited on the SSD (via a slow bus), the random speeds still make the Mac feel faster.

That said, I question some of the speeds you are listing.

 

[DeltaMac]

hmm....
on your 2010 mini... The negotiated SATA connection is 3.0 Gbps.
Considerably faster than the 480 Mbps on the USB 2.0 bus in that 2010 MBPro.
And, of course, the 2012, is faster everywhere. SATA drive will have noticeably better response when connected to SATA, compared to the USB 3.0 external connection.

 

[sfphoto]

@JuicyBox
> Have you tested the speeds of your USB SSD? Or you just estimating how much faster it is?
> I like using AmorphousDiskMark for testing drive speeds.
=======

w/ 2012 MBP
Yes I used Amorphous, internal HDD was Seq +/-80MB/s
External USB3 SSD was Seq +/-250MB/s

 

[sfphoto]

on your 2010 mini... The negotiated SATA connection is 3.0 Gbps.
Considerably faster than the 480 Mbps on the USB 2.0 bus in that 2010 MBPro.

Thank to all for your input!

w/2010 Mini, USB2, I noted:
Internal HDD Seq +/-65MB/s
External USB3 SSD Seq +/-40MB/s

The 2010 Mini SysInfo (Apple Menu):
bus speed 1066 MHz (1.066 Gbps)
negotiated SATA connection 1.5Gigabit

This thread indicates the 2010 Mini is not Sata3
forums.macrumors.com/threads/negotiated-link-speed-in-mac-mini-2010.1396348
and says:
"you wasted your money putting that in a 2010 mac mini without coming to this site" (128gb SSD 6Gbps drive)

 

[Juicy Box]

@JuicyBox
> Have you tested the speeds of your USB SSD? Or you just estimating how much faster it is?

Yes, I sure do. Over the years, I have tested a lot of drives, and drive combinations.

I tested single SSDs and HDDs internally on many older Macs, but also externally as well, over USB2 (480Mbps), USB3 (5Gbps), FW400 (40Mbps), FW800 (800Mbps), TB1 (10Gbps). I have also tested TB3 NVMe SSDs over older TB1 Macs.

In addition to that, I have tested combination of SSDs and HDDs in SW RAID0, such as two USB2 drives, two USB3, two FW800, but also mixed, such as a SW RAID0 with a USB2 and a FW800 together.

Also tested internal SW RAID0 use two SSDs in a few different Macs, such as a Mac Pro and iMac.

A lot of people don't know this, but you can run TB3 NVMe SSDs as a boot drive on your older 2012 Mac Mini. It isn't cost effective, but it is the fastest single drive option there is for older TB1 Macs. You would see about 900MBps speeds with my testing.

I keep a lot of screenshot of my tests, I will see if I can dig some up for you.

This thread indicates the 2010 Mini is not Sata3
forums.macrumors.com/threads/negotiated-link-speed-in-mac-mini-2010.1396348
and says:
"you wasted your money putting that in a 2010 mac mini without coming to this site" (128gb SSD 6Gbps drive)

"Wasted your money" is subjective.

I think what the poster was trying to say is that one was looking to get the full capability from a SATAIII SSD they shouldn't have put it into a Mac Mini with SATAII.

I have used internal SSDs in my older Macs and while I do not get the full capability of the SATAIII speeds, it isn't a waste of money because of how much faster they are compared to HDDs, especially with random speeds.

For example, I use a SSD in my still daily used Mac Pro 1,1 from 2006. It only has SATAII, but it runs so much better with a SSD. I have also used two SSDs in a SW RAID0 on my Mac Pro1,1 as a boot drive for many years, but went back to a single SSD to free up a drive bay.

Another example is all the people that use SSDs in older PPC Macs from 20+ years ago. They are not trying to get the full SATAIII sequential speeds out of these SSDs, they are doing it for the faster random speeds.

Also, the example I told you about using a TB3 NVMe SSD on my older Macs with only TB1. The drive is capable of getting 3000Mbps, but I will never see even close to those speeds on my older Macs. But, I am able to get 900Mbps speeds from the NVMe, which is still faster than any other non-RAID0 option.

 

[Juicy Box]

I keep a lot of screenshot of my tests, I will see if I can dig some up for you.

Here is a single internal HDD in my Mac Pro 1,1 versus a single SSD externally over FW800 and USB2. The sequential speeds are clearly better with the internal HDD, but look at the random speeds. The FW and USB beats the HDD many times over. This is the main reason why people use SSDs in older Macs.

HDD:


SSD over USB2:


SSD over FW800:

 

[sfphoto]

A lot of people don't know this, but you can run TB3 NVMe SSDs as a boot drive on your older 2012 Mac Mini.

I found a YouTube for installing such in a 2014, looked to be plug and play with the proper board.

 

[Juicy Box]

Oh, I found a single SSD over SATAII, pretty sure it was with my Mac Pro 1,1. Yes, the sequential is faster on the SSD as expected, but look at the difference with random read speed versus the internal HDD, 14,000% faster:

 

[Juicy Box]

A lot of people don't know this, but you can run TB3 NVMe SSDs as a boot drive on your older 2012 Mac Mini.

I actually meant to say:

A lot of people don't know this, but you can run TB3 NVMe SSDs as a boot drive on older TB1 Macs, such as your 2012 Mac Mini.

I found a YouTube for installing such in a 2014, looked to be plug and play with the proper board.

I am referring to using a Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD externally with older Macs with Thunderbolt 1. You can also install NVMe SSDs internally on some Macs with PCI adapters as well, but that is not what I am referring to.

For example, using a Samsung X5 Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD on a TB1 or TB2 Mac that doesn't have Thunderbolt 3. It has a different port so a lot of people don't know this can be done.

Samsung X5:

SAMSUNG X5 Portable SSD - 500GB - Thunderbolt 3 External SSD (MU-PB500B/AM) Gray/Red

The Samsung X5 Portable SSD is a revolutionary external storage with integrated cutting-edge NVMe and Thunderbolt 3 technologies to deliver up to 40Gb/s data transfer speeds. The X5 solid state drive is designed for content creators and high-tech professionals who need fast and secure access to d...

www.amazon.com

 

[sfphoto]

I have tested a lot of drives, and drive combinations.

Your mention of RAID bring back memories of when I had a tower of SCSI drives connected to an early Mac. Had to have a lot as their capacity was so low. Must have been an early Quadra. I just looked it up, was actually only 30 years ago, seems like eons although I still drive the same automobile.

 

[sfphoto]

For example, using a Samsung X5 Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD on a TB1 or TB2 Mac that doesn't have Thunderbolt 3. It has a different port so a lot of people don't know this can be done.

Just need to find a TB3 to TB1 cable to use it. Wonder if the OWC one would also work, amazon.com/dp/B08YN8M3G9/

 

[Juicy Box]

For example, using a Samsung X5 Thunderbolt 3 NVMe SSD on a TB1 or TB2 Mac that doesn't have Thunderbolt 3. It has a different port so a lot of people don't know this can be done.

Just need to find a TB3 to TB1 cable to use it.

BTW, I am not recommending you or anyone else to do this, as it really isn't cost effective when using a USB3 SSD would be good enough for most. If one already has some or all of the HW to do it, then I'd say go for it, otherwise, stick to a cheaper option.

AFAIK, the only cable adapter that can be used is Apple's bidirectional adapter, which is $50 new. Sometimes you can find it used on eBay for around $30:

Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter

Effortlessly connect your Mac to a Thunderbolt 2 device with the Apple Thunderbolt 3 Adapter. Buy now at apple.com

www.apple.com

But, unless your NVMe enclosure has its own power source (like a wall power adapter), you will need something to power the TB3 NVMe SSD drive, such as a TB3 dock.

You also need a TB1/2 cable to go in between your Mac and the bidirectional adapter, although, it doesn't have to be an Apple one:

Apple Thunderbolt Cable (2.0 m) - White

Apple Thunderbolt Cable lets you conduct fast data transfers by connecting Thunderbolt-enabled devices to your Mac. Get fast, free shipping.

www.apple.com

So to sum up:
TB3 NVMe SSD - $300+
bidirectional adapter - $50
TB1/2 cable - $30
TB3 Dock - $200

So, if you have to buy everything, you are looking at $600 and up depending on the SSD size.

The above will get you the fastest single drive option on TB1 Macs as well as TRIM support, but it will not be cost effective when one can get a USB3 to SATA adapter cable for $10 and a 500GB SATA SSD for $30 have have decent drive performance for less than the price of just Apple's bidirectional adapter.

 

[sfphoto]

Apple's bidirectional adapter

I saw those at Amazon however they are for using a TB2 device on a TB3 machine. Hence your mention of the hub.

you will need something to power the TB3 NVMe

Was afraid of that, TB1/2 must not supply power like TB3

Just found your GREAT comments on this similar thread:

NVMe SSD Upgrade on a Late 2012 iMac

INTRO Hello, I do hope you as the reader are well! I have been given a Late 2012 iMac 2.7ghz 21.5" as a gift, and it is painfully slow. The HDD corrupted and it is running off an external HDD connected via USB. So I am looking to add a few upgrades. I am focussing on the RAM and SSD as the CPU...

forums.macrumors.com

Found another thread on using SATA M2 flash drives via adapter in the 2012 Mini (or other '12 Macs) but those drives do not seem to be any faster than conventional SSD SATA drives.

Thanks!

 

[sfphoto]

Test results w/ 2014 MBA & 2012 MacMini:

 

[Juicy Box]

I saw those at Amazon however they are for using a TB2 device on a TB3 machine. Hence your mention of the hub.

Yeah, the bidirectional adapter can be used the other way around as well, but it doesn't provide power for TB3 devices, so they must be self powered, or powered by something else, such as a TB3 dock.

TB1/2 must not supply power like TB3

Exactly.

Test results w/ 2014 MBA & 2012 MacMini:

The USB3 SSD sequential speeds on the Mid 2012 Mac Mini is slow, like USB2 speeds.

I would check in the System Report and see what the link speed with that LaCie enclosure. Maybe it is linking at a slower speed with your Mac Mini. Maybe try another enclosure if you have one, or try a USB3/SATA adapter cable.


The upside of the results is that it clearly shows why SSDs are used in older Macs. Look at the random speed difference between the HDD and SSD.

Also, you might want to keep the test size the same for every test to keep things consistent, an "apples to apples" comparison. You have 1GB for the 2014, and 512MB for the 2012.

 

[sfphoto]

I would check in the System Report and see what the link speed with that LaCie enclosure.

SysReport says SATA link 6 Gigabits, negotiated 3 Gigbits, under USB the LaCis says up to 5 GBps. Not sure where else to look.

However I just booted from the external SSD in the LaCie enclosure (USB3<>USB-a cable) and speeds were more like what I expected.

 

[Juicy Box]

However I just booted from the external SSD in the LaCie enclosure (USB3<>USB-a cable) and speeds were more like what I expected.

Yeah, that is a huge improvement, over 5 times faster when retesting it, and closer to what I would expect to a SATA SSD over USB3, but still a little low.

Maybe the SSD was indexing the first time you tested it, but that was a huge hit to the read and write speeds.

SysReport says SATA link 6 Gigabits, negotiated 3 Gigbits

Wonder why it is negotiating it down to 3Gbps?

I looked it up, and the drive specs has it as a SATAIII. What SATA SSD are you using? Maybe it isn't playing nice with the LaCie enclosure.

Either way, it is a huge improvement over the HDD, and is you decide to install the SSD internally, this would improve sequential speeds as well have TRIM support once you enable it.

 

[sfphoto]

Yeah, that is a huge improvement, over 5 times faster when retesting it

Not sure if it makes any difference but
1) the first external SSD test with the Mini booted to the internal HDD w/ Sierra
2) the SSD external has High Sierra which was booted to for the second test

I remember reading that 10.13 upgrades/installs firmware for PCIe/NMVe drives?

The SSD in the LaCie is a Lexar 6GBps NQ100 rated at 650MBps as I remember.