MBP for the next 8 months or so

[LiE_]

My end goal is to own an appropriately specced ARM Macbook, that I don't think will be possible until sometime next year. In the interim I am looking at options to tie me over.

Options:

1) I have found for sale a used 2018 MBP 15" for £1000. It has no warranty and is base spec. The condition is good, except for a small nick in the palm rest. I can probably get it for £950.

Spec:
Space Grey
6 core 2.2GHz i7
16GB RAM
256GB SSD
Radeon Pro 555X

2) I have access to education discount, I can buy a brand new base spec 2020 MBP 13", pay £90 for the AirPods Pro and sell those for about £200. Net cost is about £1000.

Spec:

• 1.4GHz quad-core 8th‑generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.9GHz
• 8GB 2133MHz LPDDR3 memory
• 256GB SSD storage
• 13-inch Retina display with True Tone
• Intel Iris Plus Graphics 645
• Two Thunderbolt 3 ports

The 15" is obviously better specced, but has the worse keyboard, a nick in the palm rest and no warranty. It's the riskier choice. The 13" is slower, has a better keyboard and warranty. In terms of resale, I feel the 13" would be more desirable next year? What do you guys/gals think?

 

[0128672]

I'd go with the 13" for all of the reasons you stated.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

I never buy technology gear based on the purported resale value. I buy what I think will be the best value and provide the most user satisfaction over the projected ownership period.

Computers -- like circular saws and blenders -- are tools which depreciate rapidly. They are not investments, they are expenses. Same with an automobile. I drive a 2005 Toyota. I didn't buy it based on what its resale value is today, I bought it because I wanted cost-effective, unfussy reliable and safe transportation.

Resale value is more important for investments like equities and real estate. But even houses aren't just investments. A house is a home. Don't buy a house to live in if you don't like it. If you want to flip real estate without living in it, that's a different story...

A critical omission to your original inquiry, you don't specify what your usage case is for the notebook computer so any casual forum participant will be unable to give you suitable and appropriate advice about this purchase.

However, I have read some of your other comments in other sub-forums here and you claim to spend "8+ hours a day" [sic] in front of a 27" or 32" monitor that is powered by a behemoth custom build Windows PC allegedly doing work "coding" [sic].

If that is indeed the case then the Mac notebook would appear to be a mere mobile convenience and not an important tool that you rely on to pay the bills. Spending all day working hunched over in front of a mobile computer screen is a different experience than sitting in an ergonomic task chair in front of a high-quality 27" monitor.

If I recall correctly, in one of your previous threads, you have claimed to have built several custom PCs recently only to get rid of them shortly after you have finished a build. Having built custom PCs myself, I know that there is no way to recoup 100% what you spend when you sell off used computing gear. Thus you are taking losses -- probably averaging 20-25% -- every single time you purchase computing hardware and it appears that your wallet is fat enough (and your wife indulgent enough) to let you do so with little care to the net cash flow of your bank account.

You don't appear to be someone who should be agonizing if one ~£1000 computer will have a resale value of fifty quid over another similarly priced unit.

There are other options that you don't list but since you didn't bother to note your usage case, there's still no way that anyone here can offer a suitable recommendation.

If you want to still want to keep one foot in the Apple ecosystem, you could acquire an iPad (Pro, Air, mini, who cares). You could also consider a refurbed MacBook Air 2019 which can still run Mojave (and thus 32-bit applications). Who knows? Maybe you already have suitable Apple equipment.

You could buy a US$700 Windows ultrabook seeing as how you are already well acquainted with the Windows environment. You can even get a lot of basic iCloud functionality in a web browser.

And lastly, you could simply put away your wallet and just wait for the Apple Silicon MacBook of your dreams. You have offered zero evidence of a usage case that requires a MacBook purchase this instant.

That leads me to this suggestion: just buy what will make you happy for now and sell it at whatever price that market will give to you when you are no longer satisfied. You already have a consistent track record of doing that and it doesn't seem to affect your finances.

 

[LiE_]

Thanks @Erehy Dobon that's a great response.

Right now I want to keep things simple, I have a tendency to get carried away when looking at which computer to buy. My finances are OK currently but I am very conscience of the fact I am throwing money away each time I swap and change. I absolutely don't want to end up spending £1600 on a laptop when I could have easily spend £1000. My minimalist nature means I only keep things that are right for me.

The PCs where a last ditch effort to rekindle my once very enjoyable gaming hobby. It's well and truly dead, so a custom gaming PC wasn't for me and I moved it (them) on.

I'm wondering if waiting until September would mean a clearer picture of the Apple computer landscape. One thing I know for sure is I want an ARM laptop (assuming they perform well and are cool/quiet).

The current line up from Apple doesn't really tick all the boxes for me. The base 13 I wouldn't consider as a long term machine due to the poor thermal design. I don't need the power of the 4 TB MBP 13 at £1630, that spec is overkill. I am really hoping the new ARM macs mean I can finally buy a machine that I am happy with.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Throwing expensive hardware at a problem that resides in your head isn't going to solve anything.

Who is the best surfer at a break? The one having the most fun in the water not the one with the most expensive custom surfboard. I'm sure skateboarders say the same thing at the nearby skate park.

Why spend $50,000 renovating your kitchen if all you eat are microwave frozen dinner packets from the supermarket?

Again you stubbornly refuse to state your mobile computing usage case despite invoking the term "appropriately specced" [sic].

Specced to do what? Surfing the Internet? Checking e-mail? Cat videos on YouTube? Fussing with that overdue spreadsheet the boss wanted yesterday? Remote desktop into a company server? That can all be handled with a completely forgettable Windows notebook built in 2016.

If I need to hang one painting in a few weeks, I'll stick with the $2 hammer I bought thirty years ago, I don't need to spend $1500 on a compressor, a nail gun and a gas generator in case the power goes out while I'm trying to hang that painting.

If you have truly given up gaming, I don't really see how important specs are. A $3000 custom build PC with AMD Threadripper doesn't write an Excel file noticeably faster to an insanely fast SSD any better than my dumpy Wintel 1 GHz ultrabook.

Right now, it sounds like you are the guy buying high-end dSLRs, 600mm telephoto lenses, $300 tripod ballheads, and $300 carbon fiber legsets after you quit bird photography while you really just want to take some family photos during the holidays and you already have a recent smartphone in your pocket.

Every time you ignore posting your usage case, my suspicions grow that your actual needs are completely mundane and require zero special hardware performance.

 

[LiE_]

I have a Fuji X-T30 for my family photos

My usage. My day job requires Microsoft Office suite (lots of Outlook, teams, spreadsheets), developing via a web client (so lots of tabs and many heavy javascript web pages), a bit of web development (mainly using an editor which isn't demanding) and then I use Lightroom to edit RAW photos as part of my hobby with above camera. I will typically have a browser open with 5-12 tabs, Teams running, OneNote or Bear for notes, Spotify running, some word docs and excel docs open and 3-4 tabs in a code editor, sometimes an additional browser instance or another browser with several tabs. I may at some point want to drive an external 4K monitor.

For personal stuff I use iWorks suite, Apple mail, notes, keychain, all that good ecosystem stuff.

 

[0128672]

@Erehy Dobon, your two posts above are a couple of the best and most thoughtful I've read on MR for buying advice.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

At my last corporate job (15+ years), I ran Microsoft Office, Dreamweaver, various web browsers, a photo editor on company provided hardware that did not stand out from a hardware specification standpoint. We also used some web conferencing tools (WebEx, later BlueJeans) as well as an always-running VoIP client that also had desktop sharing features.

Around 2010, the IT department upgraded me to a Dell Optiplex, a small desktop, likely a mini-ITX form factor. It had a dual-core CPU, 4 GB RAM and a 64 GB SSD; I used that machine for eight years until I left the corporate world a couple of years ago. It is likely sitting on a former colleague's desk today.

As I suspected there is nothing in your belatedly revealed usage case -- a mundane set of knowledge worker based tasks -- that remotely demands special hardware and certainly nothing that specifically requires a Mac. You gave zero indication that you had any dependence or interest in the Apple services ecosystem. If I recall correctly, in another thread, you clearly stated a preference in Google cloud services.

Hell, I'd say a four-year-old Dell or Lenovo business-class notebook should have been able to carry you all those years. Lightroom is a personal hobby and doesn't need to run concurrently with all of the work-related applications; it runs fine on cheaper Windows hardware.

My ghetto $700 Wintel notebook can drive an 4K @ 60Hz monitor with its wimpy integrated Intel UHD 920 Graphics. Hell, my $99 Raspberry Pi 4 from Canakit can drive graphics at that resolution so certainly that's not a limiting issue in 2020.

My Oculus Rift S won't run on my Acer's feeble iGPU which is why I have the fancy Sonnet eGFX Breakaway Box and a nice graphics card. I have a legitimate usage case for more expensive hardware and I used the money in a pointed fashion that got me where I need to be without needlessly wasting in areas of questionable benefit.

If you want fancy computing gear, that's fine, there's nothing inherently wrong with appreciating nice things. But be honest and say that you want it not because you need it. "Appropriate specs" are irrelevant to your specific needs.

Laugh it off as a mid-life crisis. That's how I see my $500 GeForce RTX 2070 Super over a more sensible $200 Radeon RX 580.

 

[Expos of 1969]

@Erehy Dobon, your two posts above are a couple of the best and most thoughtful I've read on MR for buying advice.

I agree. Tremendous writing. To the point with some humour.

 

[LiE_]

At my last corporate job (15+ years), I ran Microsoft Office, Dreamweaver, various web browsers, a photo editor on company provided hardware that did not stand out from a hardware specification standpoint. We also used some web conferencing tools (WebEx, later BlueJeans) as well as an always-running VoIP client that also had desktop sharing features.

Around 2010, the IT department upgraded me to a Dell Optiplex, a small desktop, likely a mini-ITX form factor. It had a dual-core CPU, 4 GB RAM and a 64 GB SSD; I used that machine until I left the corporate world a couple of years ago. It is likely sitting on a former colleague's desk today.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing in your usage case -- a mundane set of knowledge worker based tasks -- that remotely demands special hardware and certainly nothing that requires a Mac. Lightroom is a personal hobby and doesn't need to run concurrently with all of the work-related applications; it also runs fine on cheaper Windows hardware. Hell, I'd say a four-year-old Dell or Lenovo business-class notebook should have been able to carry you all those years.

My ghetto $700 Wintel notebook can drive an 4K @ 60Hz monitor with its wimpy integrated Intel UHD 920 Graphics. Hell, my $99 Raspberry Pi 4 from Canakit can drive graphics at that resolution. I do know my Oculus Rift S won't run on my Acer's iGPU which is why I have the fancy Sonnet eGFX Breakaway Box and a nice graphics card.

I have a work laptop (business class Lenovo ), 7th gen i5, 128gb ssd, 8gb ram. It does OK, but it's got zero headroom. I'm consistently hitting memory limitations with my usage, Lightroom cokes hard, it's noisy. I'm not looking for the bare minimum from my computer, I expect it to handle things without requiring fans to max out because it's working at it's capacity. Nothing feels snappy, overall it's not pleasant day in day out.

I get where you're coming from - yes a basic laptop can runs most of these things - but the experience is terrible. When I'm working I constantly have text input lag into my browser because system memory is running out, but technically it still runs it. Yes I can open Lightroom and edit a photo on this laptop, but the system grinds to a halt.

You've asked my usage, but you haven't asked my requirements.

- Excellent Retina screen.
- Quiet system when not using anything CPU/GPU intensive.
- Premium build quality
- Ecosystem integration
- Great trackpad experience.
- Runs everything I need without getting hot and noisy or slowing down.

The specs I have no problem figuring out, I have a lot of experience in this area which is why I don't necessarily request guidance there or provide my usage. If I was asking for a spec me thread then absolutely I would provide my usage.

I have used a lot of hardware to do my job. 2015 15" MBP, 2018 Mac Mini connected to a 4K Ultrafine via Razer Core X with 5700 XT, then a BlackMagic RX580 eGPU, 2019 13" Base sepc MPB connected to a 4k Ultrafine, various configurations of 2019 iMacs, many custom built PCs, etc, etc. This has given me quite a bit of insight.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Now I'm confused. You claimed that Lightroom was a personal hobby and yet you frequently use your work-issued notebook PC for this? If you are running Lightroom concurrently with your work applications, I can see how its 8 GB RAM can cause memory issues.

And that completely ignores the fact that you have built some high-spec custom Windows builds (all of which could have handled Lightroom quite handsomely) and claimed to be using them for "8+ hours per day" doing "work" which brings me to the next glaring inconsistency.

A company is responsible for providing its employees with the tools and work environment necessary for them to accomplish what they got hired to do. If your performance is being hampered by inadequate resources from your work-provided notebook PC, bring it up with your manager.

Your preferences for a personal system may have little or no overlap with what your employer feels is important. If you want more overlap, you may need to seek out a new company whose computing equipment philosophies are more in line with yours.

Yeah, I'd love a corner office with a balcony that overlooks the Adriatic Sea. However my former employer did not find that to be a requirement for me to do my job. We all make compromises every day and not just computing.

You are confusing needs and wants and now it is clear that you are messily scrambling work and personal computing, a distinct no-no in my book.

My next suggestion: let your employer know how/if/when your work-issued equipment is failing to help you accomplish what you get a paycheck for. Realize that what they find as adequate equipment might not be what you want for Christmas.

I'm sure there's a city employee driving around a plain government-issued automobile when he really wants to be driving an Aston-Martin.

Feel free to set different preferences for your personal equipment. At this point, it sounds like Lightroom running on a Retina-grade box. Could be Mac, could be Windows. Frankly, I can't stand spending long hours doing photo or video editing on a notebook computer, no matter how great the built-in display is.

One specific tip I can definitely provide: don't buy an Acer Swift 3. While the fan has a zero RPM mode for low CPU usage, the display is standard non-Retina FHD. The build quality is what one would expect in a $700 notebook PC; it weighs 3 ounces less than the MacBook Air. The trackpad sucks but it has good Windows ecosystem integration. Some iCloud functionality is accessible via web browser and iTunes for Windows can stream my entire iTunes Match music library.

 

[LiE_]

It's not uncommon for employees to be given pretty average computers to do their jobs. They probably follow the same logic you mentioned above - it works and runs the applications - so therefore it's fine for the job. They aren't sympathetic to it "running a bit slow" or "it struggles a bit" when talking about how well it does the job. The laptop doesn't fail to do the job, technically. The things I want from my computer aren't the concern of my employer, which brings me onto my next point I should have mentioned earlier.

We have a relaxed BYOD policy so I've pretty much always used my own personal computer for work and my hobbies. I need a personal computer, it will also be used for work, because it will be vastly better at doing my job than whatever my work will provide.

I've only recently started using my work laptop as I'm between devices (hence looking for a stop gap machine in this thread) and I've run Lightroom to check performance. I don't have a personal computer currently.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Well, my former employer did have something of a BYOD policy and many employees exercised this privilege particularly with their smartphones. The company also offered discounted versions of Microsoft Office which employees and their immediate family could keep even after they left the company.

I chose not to participate in any of this. The company offered several times to issue an iPhone and cover the cellular service. I politely thanked them and declined. They would have been very willing to exchange my Dell Optiplex desktop for a Lenovo notebook PC to take home to do work. I never asked for this. Prior to that job I worked for other companies where I did a LOT of work from home.

It was mentally easier me to keep work and personal lives separately with that employer. Once or twice a month I fired up Microsoft Remote Desktop on my home system to take care of something but my preference was to keep everything far apart. I didn't get work e-mails on my personal devices. My work phone was not forwarded to my personal line.

Today, I work for myself. Work and personal computing all happen on the same devices but I am the boss, employee and IT department. I weigh my needs and wants and come to some sort of compromise. Certainly, I feel no need to replicate every single piece of functionality on my two Windows PCs (one desktop, one notebook) and my one Mac desktop.

There are pros and cons in combining work and personal computing. The less you are willing to compromise, the more you will have to pay out of your own pocket.

Remember that computers are a tool. The Dell Optiplex had a capital asset tag on it. As a tool, it needs to be to fully used. Yes, there were minutes, hours, days when whatever I was doing maxxed out the machine/network/resources/etc. Sometimes I could workaround the issues, sometimes I would silently bear through the pain, other times I complained (particularly about network issues which were beyond my control).

However, if you are running into issues with your work-issued hardware while you are doing non-work-related tasks, your case is very weak.

 

[LiE_]

However, if you are running into issues with your work-issued hardware while you are doing non-work-related tasks, your case is very weak.

Just to be clear, I'm only using my work laptop for personal computing because I currently have no personal computer hence this thread.

That fact that my personal computer will double up as my work computer really just benefits my work as it's so much better having the extra performance, better screen, etc.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Just an afterword about my ghetto Acer: while it has many deficiencies, some of which I clearly stated, it can also be plugged into a high-quality 4K monitor (which I sometimes do). When I do that, I use an external keyboard and trackball, both of which eliminate any complaints about the two built-in input devices. If I plug in the eGPU, I free up precious system RAM for application use.

Because I am unable to keep along with your various PC building adventures, let me get this straight. You have built at least two custom Windows PC in the past few months and you have zero to show from it apart from a handful of photos and a large hole in your bank account probably amounting between 300 and 500 pounds?

You are limping along solely with a company-issued notebook computer that shows a lot of stress when you do personal tasks (Lightroom) that it was not specced to be handling because those tasks aren't part of your job description.

And you want to spend more money beyond what you have recently flushed down the loo? What have you learned from this madcap voyage? Anything about compromise?

At this point, if you don't accept some sort of compromise, my guess is that you will be unhappy with whatever computer you buy, whether it be £500, £1000, £1500, £2000, or £2500, return it at a loss, and keep repeating this miserable cycle.

And Apple Silicon Macs will be no panacea. They are designed and made with their own compromises. The first generation units will undoubtedly be especially rough. I'm guessing that Apple Silicon Macs really won't start to hit their stride until 2025: more mature hardware (particularly any in-house GPU silicon), more mature operating system, and lastly a more robust and expansive selection of optimized third-party software (the latter is not within Apple's control).

Like I said before throwing buckets of money at hardware isn't going to fix the real problem: the one in your head.

 

[LiE_]

You are limping along solely with a company-issued notebook computer that shows a lot of stress when you do personal tasks (Lightroom) that it was not specced to be handling because those tasks aren't part of your job description.

I wouldn't get hyper focused on this, I ran Lightroom on my work laptop as that is what I currently have access to. It highlights that not just any old laptop from 2016 will meet my needs.

My work laptop runs the applications I use for work, albeit a bit sluggish at times. I need a personal computer for running Lightroom, it will be specced appropriately to run this, and as an added bonus the horsepower will have no issues with running my work applications as well.

As I mentioned I don't have any issues with choosing the right spec for my needs (however confusing they may appear to be), but right now I am looking at my personal computer, that I use for work also.

My personal computer will be an Apple laptop, but I am not quite happy with the current line up which I am hoping ARM will fix - the main one being thermal issues e.g. 2020 Macbook Air the fans ramp up during a Teams call, no good for me, I have quite a few Teams calls per day.

I don't need really high spec Macbook pro for my usage, 2 TB port 13 MBP again has poor cooling. I was thinking of grabbing the base spec to tie me over, knowing that I will move it on means I am OK with the compromises as they are short term.

Saying that, I am probably best to just stick with my work laptop as my sole device until I can get an ARM laptop from Apple that I will be happy with. That does mean running Lightroom on this work laptop as I don't have access to another machine.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Well, since we have come around full circle and you are considering just keeping things status quo, I suggest you spend some time in the upcoming months trying to come up with a Plan B that you would find acceptable if the first generation Apple Silicon Macs are inadequate, a very real possibility.

Will you keep using your company issued notebook for personal tasks for another year? Two? Three? Will you concede on some of your "requirements" [sic]? Will you up your budget? A premium Windows notebook? A competent Windows desktop? Another Intel Mac?

And how do you think you will reflect and reconcile on the months past spent with your current setup?

At least for me, there have been some instances where I walked away saying "Gee, I should have done that years ago." Hindsight is usually 20-20.

That said, non-action at this moment appears to be a new approach for you. Perhaps that will end up well.

Best of luck.

 

[TorontoJen]

Don’t buy used. I don’t think you will be happy with it and the keyboard is a risk. I’m so tired of getting my keyboard cleaned / fixed.
Honestly, I just don’t think you are the kind to settle, based on other threads.

I kind of get the flip flopping around. I did that with phones for a few years.
As for computers, in 2015, I bought a MBP, a little MacBook and an iPP. I still use them all.
Maybe you are the type of person who needs multiple solutions instead of one.
Though that can be initially hard on the wallet, it worked for me.
I have my 2015 MBP that I hooked up to a big monitor and did graphic design work with. I used my MB for writing in bed or coffee shops. My iPP was for notes and media consumption, as well as for editing docs.
They all still work great and it helped a lot with my need to have the latest gadget for almost 6 years now because all my needs were met across the board when it came to computing.
I also have a basic Windows laptop for dictation since the software for Mac dictation is now defunct, and I need it for my job.
So it’s a best of both worlds situation in my case.
I hope you figure out something and can feel settled sooner rather than later.
Good luck!

 

[TorontoJen]

One thing I picked up on in your post as well is the need for a quiet computer.
This is imperative to me. Not because of anything other than I can’t take excessively loud fan noise. It drives me absolutely bonkers and works my last nerve. My current lineup of 2015 computers and my Dell Inspiron for dictation are very quiet computers even under load. The fans ramped are tolerable.
I have taken back a pc or two for excessive fan noise over the course of the past ten years.
Since I dictate, I prefer a quiet machine.
I think knowing what is most important to your work flow in terms of personal preference AND and daily usage case then narrowing down from there might help.
So maybe since you like a bigger monitor daily, a 13” laptop might not serve well on its own in the interim. Maybe you need a larger laptop. And if you are hitting max load, maybe a computer with a lot of RAM is what’s really important, along with being quiet.

 

[Plutonius]

My end goal is to own an appropriately specced ARM Macbook, that I don't think will be possible until sometime next year.

It's only me but I don't believe in buying the first rev of a new architecture.

I would base the decision on what to buy now assuming at least three years of ownership.

 

[LiE_]

One thing I picked up on in your post as well is the need for a quiet computer.
This is imperative to me. Not because of anything other than I can’t take excessively loud fan noise. It drives me absolutely bonkers and works my last nerve. My current lineup of 2015 computers and my Dell Inspiron for dictation are very quiet computers even under load. The fans ramped are tolerable.
I have taken back a pc or two for excessive fan noise over the course of the past ten years.
Since I dictate, I prefer a quiet machine.
I think knowing what is most important to your work flow in terms of personal preference AND and daily usage case then narrowing down from there might help.
So maybe since you like a bigger monitor daily, a 13” laptop might not serve well on its own in the interim. Maybe you need a larger laptop. And if you are hitting max load, maybe a computer with a lot of RAM is what’s really important, along with being quiet.

I probably do need a bigger laptop screen, 15" was good on my 2015 MBP. My Lenovo is 13" and it's fine, but a little too small.

I'm going to hold off buying anything until September, see what info we get then.

It's only me but I don't believe in buying the first rev of a new architecture.

I would base the decision on what to buy now assuming at least three years of ownership.

I wouldn't be pre-ordering blindly, once the ARM devices are in the hands of the public and reviewers I'll be able to know if they are worthwhile.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

It's okay if skeptical people pre-order blindly.

They just need to make up their minds whether or not the new system is acceptable before Apple's 14-day no-questions-asked customer satisfaction return window deadline.

It's not like buying a bunch of brand-new PC components for a custom build and selling them all off at a loss in the used equipment market a month later.

At least here in the USA, Apple's 14-day return policy gives you back every penny.

Regardless I'm still not buying a first-generation Apple Silicon Mac.

 

[LiE_]

It's not like buying a bunch of brand-new PC components for a custom build and selling them all off at a loss in the used equipment market a month later.

That's different though, I knew what I was buying and it had be specced to do exactly what I wanted. It just turned out gaming wasn't as fun as I remember it being.

Luckily my brother needed a fully kitted out desktop, so I didn't take too much of a loss.

I've used the 14 day cooling off period extensively for my 2nd PC build, pretty much everything was returned in that window. I've also used it a lot with Apple with most of their computers.