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Pro7913

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Sep 28, 2019
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Well, I graduated one year ago and yet I have a lot of ambition toward equipment. Currently, I have A7R2 with 85 and 55. I rented Fujifilm 50S with several lenses for the first time and I really like it. The quality itself is slightly better for sure.

I do doubt that getting a MF right now would be meaningless since I dont have a proper job and cant afford it. Yup, that's the reality. But still, I like its quality which I can not forget.

I wish to ditch Sony for MF but Im not sure if I can justify its price for portrait and fashion photography. When can I justify its price?
 

tizeye

macrumors 68040
Jul 17, 2013
3,241
35,935
Orlando, FL
Assuming you are in the US...when your production increases to the level that makes financial sense, and interrelated...you need a tax deduction. Don't know what foreign tax laws are, but equipment used professionally (not hobby) is tax deductible offsetting earned income, as well as other business related expenses. Let your CPA tell you when.

In the meantime, you are not exactly handicapping yourself with a Sony A7RII with it's 42MP sensor and dynamic range broadly considered a challenge to medium format. Yes, medium format may have marginally more resolution of detail, but at the cost difference making the marginal improvement a diminishing return. Within the portrait and fashion industry a DSLR is perfectly acceptable...and has been since film days. If you absolutely NEED medium format for a specific job, rent it (also tax deductible) which, after renting several help narrow the choice of which one to purchase. Plus, incremental improvements in models will be reflected when ready to buy as opposed to trying to justify an upgrade.
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
673
Well, I graduated one year ago and yet I have a lot of ambition toward equipment. Currently, I have A7R2 with 85 and 55. I rented Fujifilm 50S with several lenses for the first time and I really like it. The quality itself is slightly better for sure.

I do doubt that getting a MF right now would be meaningless since I dont have a proper job and cant afford it. Yup, that's the reality. But still, I like its quality which I can not forget.

I wish to ditch Sony for MF but Im not sure if I can justify its price for portrait and fashion photography. When can I justify its price?

Having worked in the photography industry for close to 30 years and having left it all to pursue a different career, my advice to you is to focus on getting a proper job and a set of clientele for your portrait and fashion photography. Once you had built up a business or gotten a job that pays your bill, not doing freebies for instagram or facebook fame is when you would consider a medium format camera. Your desire to own a MF is not uncommon. I can honestly tell you that I had been through the same stage as you did 3 decades ago when I finished photography school and gotten a commercial photography diploma. I thought I would be as famous as Joe Mcnally, Scott Kelly or Anne Giddes, but in reality I was good, but had to work very hard to build up a set of clientele and business before I could consider myself ok to feed myself and buy the appropriate gear for my business. Ultimately in the end, I ended up working for Pentax and Nikon and used their (Pentax 645) and (Nikon D4s and D800) before I left. Medium format is great because of its bigger sensor which provides much shallow depth of field and higher dynamic range than a comparable full frame sensor. This translates to breathtaking 30x40 and larger prints where the commercial clients are seeking. They will pay bigger bucks for your work, but again, you will have to work really hard to sell yourself, getting more jobs that ultimately will require you to use a MF.

In my past experiences where I anticipated getting jobs that require MF, I ended up in debt paying for gear where the jobs I was getting didn't require them or simply is too much gear for the work I did. I had met many photographers who had been affected by GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) where they think that better gear will get them jobs. What happened in the past was that I suffered from low self-esteem working as a photographer and I thought buying better gear would solve my self-esteem, let me become more confident getting better work and a proper paying photography job. But ultimately, it is my work that sells and pays the bill, irregardless whether it was shot with 35mm film or 120 film (I started with a film camera). And yet, I had met "MANY" photographers that bought great gear with credit and were continually paying that debt even after the model was retired. I met a portrait and fashion photography and while she was famous in the mid 80s and 90s, it was clear that her work was starting to become dated, but she invested more into digital and large format, but her work didn't evolve. What happened was, she was still paying for her Nikon D100 (that's 6MP) even in 2012 when I last met her. To these photographers, the gear own their lives as they had to keep working to pay off their debt rather than the most successful photographers where they own the gear -- the gear is working to pay their bills and make profits.
 

Darmok N Jalad

macrumors 603
Sep 26, 2017
5,425
48,332
Tanagra (not really)
I'm not sure if I understand--is photography your profession? Even if it is, I think you need to be making good money to justify something better than what you have. Many a quality photograph has been taken with less than a MF camera!
 

tizeye

macrumors 68040
Jul 17, 2013
3,241
35,935
Orlando, FL
One of my favorite videos (poor quality, but great content) David Hobby follows Joe McNally to a desert shoot after their conference in Dubai. Both very accomplished photographers who could easily afford a medium format camera. Joe didn't take a strobe or two or a medium format camera. Joe is, of course a Nikon guy, and he used his Nikon DSLR for a fashion shoot. For lighting/shadow control in the desert He used 12 to 16 speedlights with most mounted on a pole and sync'd together which was amazing.
 

cSalmon

macrumors regular
Dec 18, 2016
205
106
dc
While you’ve already gotten great advice from iluvmac99 I will add a couple of quick thoughts that photo-school may have left out. First and foremost you will do your career a heap of benefits if you put down the camera and go assist for a couple of years.

Second grip gear lasts through the years, cameras are turning over every couple of years do you already have a full lighting kit; stands, cart, cases, gels, super clamps, knuckles, low boy, sand bags, stingers, etc.. These are items you can invest in today and brings value both for your own photography as well as any job you may get as an assistant.

Third while you’re starting out now is the time to learn spreadsheets, invoicing, logging equipment lists, and accounting. Here is a acronym you should google CODB and start creating a spreadsheet to know your costs.

Hope this helps
 

steveash

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2008
527
245
UK
I can speak from direct experience. I went from a Canon full-frame DSLR to medium format Hasselblad 5 or 6 years ago. I did it because the high end photographers in my field seemed to be using them. I could see the difference but to be honest my clients couldn’t. The money would have been better spent on lenses that make a bigger visual difference.

I’ve learnt however, that the best way to invest in your photography is to put your money into building a portfolio. Great images need great subjects. Travel, book models, hire props, locations, whatever it needs to complete your vision. Your portfolio and the marketing of it, is the one thing that can get you the work you want.
 

Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
2,042
936
Hawaii, USA
Disclaimer: I've been an Olympus user for a bit over a decade, and bought a used GFX 50S a few months ago to become a dual-system user for the first time. While I've done a paid job or two in the past, I am not a professional photographer.

Being on the two "extreme" ends of the sensor spectrum has been pretty eye-opening to me, and it makes me think that there are a lot of misconceptions that are bandied about the photography enthusiast realm. A big one, for example, is the idea that larger sensor = shallow depth of field. My GFX 50S with the 63mm f/2.8 gives the same depth of field wide-open as my Olympus with the 25mm f/1.2, but the Olympus at f/16 (minimum aperture) gives a depth of field that is greater than the 63mm at f/32 (minimum aperture) by about three feet. Depth of field control is thus greater with a smaller sensor... but if Fuji made a 63mm lens with an aperture wider than f/2.8 then you could argue that the shallowness of the depth of field was certainly more shallow with the Fuji. I'd argue that there is finer control over depth of field with a larger sensor (less depth added per f-stop). The semantics matter because it lays bare the other misconception that seems to plague photography, which is that the more shallow the DoF, the better. Even with my Olympus I find I'm often stopping down my f/1.2 lenses to f/2.8 or smaller. Sure, I shoot them wide open a fair bit too, but that's usually more for lighting. I stop down the Fujinon lenses, too, but the lack of image stabilization requiring higher shutter speeds, and the need for smaller F-stops to achieve roughly the same greater depth of field, means the ISO creeps up very quickly on the Fujinon. It's a good thing that the high ISO performance is so impressive, but it means that the practical advantage over the Olympus is minimal.

Granted, I do still have poor discipline with DoF. I'll shoot the Fujinon 110mm f/2.0 wide open quite often, usually regretting that I didn't stop down when I review the images on my computer... but it's fun. You can actually get a more shallow depth of field with your Sony given the current lens offerings available on both systems, if that's the goal.

While I won't say that there aren't differences between my µ4/3 and medium format systems, the difference is not worth the $3,000 that divides the two. I worried that I'd never be able to shoot with my Olympus again after picking up the Fuji, and the first time I looked at the Fuji's images and compared them with my Olympus - not head-to-head comparisons, mind you, just reviewing my photos - it really seemed like I'd need to sell all of my µ4/3 gear. Yet when I mixed shooting with the two and reviewed the photos in a blinded manner, despite pixel-peeping and using my 27" retina iMac's display, I had a very hard time telling which camera took which photo.

More than anything, I think it means that there are no "bad" cameras these days. I know the Olympus very well, and know how to work around its shortcomings. I understand the company's design philosophy and feel comfortable with it. The Fuji legitimately can't do some things that the Olympus can (low-light exposure modes are an obvious example - the Olympus decreases the refresh rate to allow you to "see" in the dark, works well for manually focusing in very dim conditions, whereas the Fuji outright lacks that feature), but the larger sensor has some nice benefits.

If my rambling wasn't worth much on its own, here's the answer to your question: if you told me I had to go professional tomorrow, there's a good chance I'd sell all of my current camera gear and go with Sony's "full frame" mirrorless options. Their sensors are second to none for that platform, they have camera bodies geared toward specific applications, and their lens lineup is pretty versatile, even better with strong third-party support. The GFX system can be a nice differentiator and a possible selling point, but the lens lineup is still being established and the number of applications that the camera system can be applied toward is far more limited. The GFX 100, with its IBIS and on-sensor PDAF, rectifies a lot of that... but it's also $10,000. Unless you're shooting for clients who really care about the camera system or can somehow make camera gear a selling point for yourself, I'm not sure that you'll ever truly be able to justify the GFX system.

If you're just an enthusiast like me, then things are a bit different. If you've shot with it and truly feel there's a difference, and can live with the limitations compared with Sony, then you can justify it when you can comfortably afford it. Even though I may sound down on my GFX 50S, I enjoy using it and I love the photos I get from it, so it was worth it. Sure, the Olympus is what I take when I don't know what I'm up against and really want to ensure I come away with something usable, and I'd sell the GFX if my wife told me to choose only one, but this is a hobby for me and we only live once, right?
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
1,849
1,603
Well, I graduated one year ago and yet I have a lot of ambition toward equipment. Currently, I have A7R2 with 85 and 55. I rented Fujifilm 50S with several lenses for the first time and I really like it. The quality itself is slightly better for sure.

I do doubt that getting a MF right now would be meaningless since I dont have a proper job and cant afford it. Yup, that's the reality. But still, I like its quality which I can not forget.

I wish to ditch Sony for MF but Im not sure if I can justify its price for portrait and fashion photography. When can I justify its price?


When you have a proper job and can afford it. Either that means through a professional photography gigs where the gear pays for itself or you become a software engineer making good money and you buy one for hobby purposes.


Seriously you would be surprised what some professionals shooting fashion for major magazines use for a camera. 5 or 6 years ago one of the pretty famous photographers who does campaigns for Vogue was using a Pentax K5. I think he's been using D800s for a crop sensor FujiFilm since then.
 
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Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
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Seriously you would be surprised what some professionals shooting fashion for major magazines use for a camera.
This is true. Another Fujifilm GFX user who shoots professionally for big-name magazines was evidently using Fuji's APS-C system before adding the medium format system to his bag. He still uses those cameras, although it seems maybe they're primarily for video purposes these days.
 
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steveash

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2008
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When you have a proper job and can afford it. Either that means through a professional photography gigs where the gear pays for itself or you become a software engineer making good money and you buy one for hobby purposes.


Seriously you would be surprised what some professionals shooting fashion for major magazines use for a camera. 5 or 6 years ago one of the pretty famous photographers who does campaigns for Vogue was using a Pentax K5. I think he's been using D800s for a crop sensor FujiFilm since then.

Very true. I met a couple of fashion photographers at an event in London and neither owned a camera. Instead they chose to hire their favoured system for each shoot and billing the cost directly to the client. It meant that not only did they save lots of money (I’m guessing the lifestyle of a fashion photographer in London is pretty costly!) but they always had the very latest kit.
 
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Pro7913

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Sep 28, 2019
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Thx for replies.

Well, I wanted to ask this question because Fujifilm GFX 50S and few lenses are cheap which I can sell and buy it under $5000.

Im using A7R2 but if 50S' price is $3500, then I have no reason to keep A7R series because the optical quality of GFX system is way better. I'm gonna try A7R4 at Photo Plus Expo 2019... I mean near Photo Plus Expo since Sony made their own event. I know that Sony GM lenses are stunning but base on my experiences, they aren't that sharper than GF lenses. Dont get me wrong. I tried all GM lenses and GF lenses since I can access all of them till next May(I can prove it if you want) I personally own 85mm F1.4 GM. It is sharp but not wide open. 110mm F2 is one of my fav lenses to own.

I know the limitation of the medium format camera and that's why I would like to buy A7iii with a zoom lens. I def do need a medium format camera for fine art uses as I print large images like 60x44.

So yeah I would buy A7iii for all purposes while I get GFX medium format for the highest quality. GM lenses are expansive as GF lenses anyway especially zoom lenses.

But yeah, I need a proper job first.
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
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Thx for replies.

Well, I wanted to ask this question because Fujifilm GFX 50S and few lenses are cheap which I can sell and buy it under $5000.

Im using A7R2 but if 50S' price is $3500, then I have no reason to keep A7R series because the optical quality of GFX system is way better. I'm gonna try A7R4 at Photo Plus Expo 2019... I mean near Photo Plus Expo since Sony made their own event. I know that Sony GM lenses are stunning but base on my experiences, they aren't that sharper than GF lenses. Dont get me wrong. I tried all GM lenses and GF lenses since I can access all of them till next May(I can prove it if you want) I personally own 85mm F1.4 GM. It is sharp but not wide open. 110mm F2 is one of my fav lenses to own.

I know the limitation of the medium format camera and that's why I would like to buy A7iii with a zoom lens. I def do need a medium format camera for fine art uses as I print large images like 60x44.

So yeah I would buy A7iii for all purposes while I get GFX medium format for the highest quality. GM lenses are expansive as GF lenses anyway especially zoom lenses.

But yeah, I need a proper job first.


How is your A7RII specifically limiting you though? Are you selling fine art currently and the A7RII isn't up to the job?
 

Pro7913

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Sep 28, 2019
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How is your A7RII specifically limiting you though? Are you selling fine art currently and the A7RII isn't up to the job?

I dont sell anything. But I cant use 24mp or low mp sensor cause I print huge works.

Tho Sony released A7R4, I highly doubt its performance due to the sensor size and lenses. When they announced with a 61mp FF sensor, I checked all sample images but it was very disappointing because most lenses even GM series weren't able to resolve the 61mp sensor. Sony said their GM lenses support up to 100mp but it was a lie. Few weeks ago, I start using Fujifilm GFX 50S with all lenses by renting them from where I work as a part-time job. The optical quality is way superior even at wide open. And yet, the price range is similar to GM lenses. Do you know how expansive medium format lenses are? Fujifilm GF lenses are cheap and the performance is great. I tested all lenses btw. So yeah, if I wanna get A7R4 for better quality, why not Fujifilm medium format camera? Fuji lenses are way better than Sony lenses, especially for high megapixels.

But of course, I would get A7iii with 24mp cause I can't use 50mp for all purposes.
 

mmomega

macrumors demi-god
Dec 30, 2009
3,888
2,101
DFW, TX
Composition and subject, IMO, make more of a difference than the device. Keep clicking that shutter button and you'll get better and better.
More MP do not make a photo more interesting, again, IMO.
I have an R2, R3 and R4. Unless you're staring at pixels at 1:1, outside of techy camera people don't care if the photo catches their attention and imagination.
 
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steveash

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2008
527
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UK
There is no doubt that if you want the very best in image quality then a larger sensor will provide it. It affects not just resolution but also colour and tonal graduation. We are talking fine details however.

The fine detail of images from the A7Riv do have a small amount of grain to them but this is probably due to the tiny pixel pitch rather than the lenses. You can see similar grain in MFT images, those from Canons new 32mp sensor and more pronounced in pictures from mobile phones. On the other hand you get a beautiful clarity in images from the big pixels of the A7s and old lower resolution medium format backs. The grain is much more visible on a computer screen zoomed in, than on big prints.

Also keep in mind that technique and equipment use, such as tripod/stand, flash, shutter speed and iso are equally important to the quality of fine detail.

The difference between the resolution between images from an A7riii, A7Riv and 50 or 100mp MF will be imperceptible in a large print unless you study the image from less than 12 inches away. Unless you are printing images with the detail of a Where’s Wally poster then you don’t really have to worry about it. Most photographers/artists want viewers to stand back and take an image in as a whole rather than concentrate on the fine detail. You are likely worrying about things no-one else will ever notice.

Medium Format does provide other things than just resolution and on your big prints the colour and tonal changes are likely to be more noticeable than the fine details. It is really down to the photographers style and preference whether this is what you want. Personally, medium format suits my carefully planned, slow but methodical style and I really benefit from the high sync speed of leaf-shutter lenses.
 
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fathergll

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I dont sell anything. But I cant use 24mp or low mp sensor cause I print huge works.

Ok..but you said you own a A7RII which is 42MP.

Tho Sony released A7R4, I highly doubt its performance due to the sensor size and lenses. When they announced with a 61mp FF sensor, I checked all sample images but it was very disappointing because most lenses even GM series weren't able to resolve the 61mp sensor. Sony said their GM lenses support up to 100mp but it was a lie. Few weeks ago, I start using Fujifilm GFX 50S with all lenses by renting them from where I work as a part-time job. The optical quality is way superior even at wide open. And yet, the price range is similar to GM lenses. Do you know how expansive medium format lenses are? Fujifilm GF lenses are cheap and the performance is great. I tested all lenses btw. So yeah, if I wanna get A7R4 for better quality, why not Fujifilm medium format camera? Fuji lenses are way better than Sony lenses, especially for high megapixels.

But of course, I would get A7iii with 24mp cause I can't use 50mp for all purposes.

No question GFX is superior in that regard but unless you have sufficient funds your better off staying on the E mount for now. To quote you in your first post "The quality itself is slightly better for sure". It's a simple litmus test...if you want to spend 1000+% more to fund a new MF system to get 5% better IQ in some scenarios then go for it. You're best bet is a workhorse that covers everything which your current system(FF E-mount.)
 

Pro7913

Cancelled
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Sep 28, 2019
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Ok..but you said you own a A7RII which is 42MP.



No question GFX is superior in that regard but unless you have sufficient funds your better off staying on the E mount for now. To quote you in your first post "The quality itself is slightly better for sure". It's a simple litmus test...if you want to spend 1000+% more to fund a new MF system to get 5% better IQ in some scenarios then go for it. You're best bet is a workhorse that covers everything which your current system(FF E-mount.)

But the price of GFX and FE system are quite identical. That's the point.
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
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But the price of GFX and FE system are quite identical. That's the point.


It's not because you're already on E Mount. You would have a significant cost to build a GFX system at this point because even selling your entire Sony system wouldn't bring in that much.
 

Pro7913

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Sep 28, 2019
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It's not because you're already on E Mount. You would have a significant cost to build a GFX system at this point because even selling your entire Sony system wouldn't bring in that much.

I dont mind to sell them. I only need one standard zoom lens one mid-telephoto lens. If I'm gonna spend money for A7R4 with GM lenses, then it would be way better to spend money on GFX.
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
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I dont mind to sell them. I only need one standard zoom lens one mid-telephoto lens. If I'm gonna spend money for A7R4 with GM lenses, then it would be way better to spend money on GFX.

Sounds like you can't afford it though which is why I assumed you started the thread to begin with.
 

fathergll

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2014
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I said I can sell them for GFX system.


You started a thread with the following statements;

  • "I dont have a proper job and cant afford it."
  • "I wish to ditch Sony for MF but Im not sure if I can justify its price for portrait and fashion photography. When can I justify its price?

If you can't justify the price you can't afford it.
 
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Pro7913

Cancelled
Original poster
Sep 28, 2019
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102
You started a thread with the following statements;

  • "I dont have a proper job and cant afford it."
  • "I wish to ditch Sony for MF but Im not sure if I can justify its price for portrait and fashion photography. When can I justify its price?

If you can't justify the price you can't afford it.

And I said I can sell my equipment.
 
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