MKV->MP4 loss in quality

[Purakane]

I bought an atv2 so I can stream movies from my imac.
My movies are in both .avi and .mkv
however I need to convert them to .Mov or .mp4 then drag to itunes before I'm able to stream it to my tv.

Now when I play game of thrones.mkv on my 27" imac it looks gorgeous. When I convert it to mp4 I would say the quality drops from a 9/10 to a 7/10. This results exponentially when i stream it to my 70" tv which looks like vcd/dvd quality. My mkv file which starts at 2.5gb will convert down to 600mb mp4.

So what I'm basically trying to ask is if there is a way to either
-stream my movies to the atv2 in mkv or avi format (my atv2 is jailbroken)
or
-is there a way to convert from mkv/avi to mov/mp4 without ANY quality loss?

thanks a lot

 

[Sedulous]

I bought an atv2 so I can stream movies from my imac.
My movies are in both .avi and .mkv
however I need to convert them to .Mov or .mp4 then drag to itunes before I'm able to stream it to my tv.

Now when I play game of thrones.mkv on my 27" imac it looks gorgeous. When I convert it to mp4 I would say the quality drops from a 9/10 to a 7/10. This results exponentially when i stream it to my 70" tv which looks like vcd/dvd quality. My mkv file which starts at 2.5gb will convert down to 600mb mp4.

So what I'm basically trying to ask is if there is a way to either
-stream my movies to the atv2 in mkv or avi format (my atv2 is jailbroken)
or
-is there a way to convert from mkv/avi to mov/mp4 without ANY quality loss?

thanks a lot

It sounds like you are compressing the video. If your .mkv files are encoded with H.264, then you would be better off re-muxing the mkv data stream to .mp4. Unless you want so much compression, do not bother re-encoding! I suggest trying MP4Tools or Subler. Added benefit of re-muxing instead of re-encoding is that re-muxing is much faster because the data streams are not being changed and are simply being copied from the .mkv container to the .mp4 container (no quality loss).

Avi cannot usually be re-mixed because they usually have mp3 audio and DIVX/Xvid video compression; neither of which is compatible with .mp4. If you are stuck with .avi, you could transcode to .mp4 using handbrake (you can choose the ATV2 preset for optimal results), or you can use something like airvideo to stream avi/wmv/mov/flv to an iOS device and AirPlay it from your iOS device to the ATV2. Sounds clunky but it actually does work well enough.

 

[Purakane]

It sounds like you are compressing the video. If your .mkv files are encoded with H.264, then you would be better off re-muxing the mkv data stream to .mp4. Unless you want so much compression, do not bother re-encoding! I suggest trying MP4Tools or Subler. Added benefit of re-muxing instead of re-encoding is that re-muxing is much faster because the data streams are not being changed and are simply being copied from the .mkv container to the .mp4 container.

thank you so much! I suck at technology and honestly have no idea what most of that means but I think I get the jist of it.

Your suggesting that if my mkv file is H.264 (how do i check if it is?) then just re-mux (meaning change container without any form of compressing or encoding or re-encoding) it into a mp4 container and the quality should stay exactly the same? what program should i use?

 

[Sedulous]

thank you so much! I suck at technology and honestly have no idea what most of that means but I think I get the jist of it.

Your suggesting that if my mkv file is H.264 (how do i check if it is?) then just re-mux (meaning change container without any form of compressing or encoding or re-encoding) it into a mp4 container and the quality should stay exactly the same? what program should i use?

Get Subler. Start Subler, click File, choose New. This will open a blank window. Find your .mkv and drag it into that empty Subler document. It will then pop up a window that lists all the tracks/type within the .mkv file. You can select/de-select tracks for import using the check mark. For now, just make sure they are all selected. Click ok. Then choose File/Save. It will ask you for a file name. Then click ok. Then wait while it copies over the data streams to your new mp4 file (may take several minutes). When it is completed, you may want to use the meta data tagging feature (click Import/Search Meta data... or something like that).

 

[Reserved]

I use Beamer for streaming to my ATV3. Simple drag and drop interface and the developers are constantly adding support for more formats (I haven't encountered a format that hasn't worked for me). It makes my ATV3 a lot my useful, paired with airplay on 10.8 I haven't really missed not being able to jailbrake ATV3.

Though if your ATV2 is jail broken you have many more options such as xbmc (which there is heaps of info in the forums on already).

 

[Sedulous]

I use Beamer for streaming to my ATV3. Simple drag and drop interface and the developers are constantly adding support for more formats (I haven't encountered a format that hasn't worked for me). It makes my ATV3 a lot my useful, paired with airplay on 10.8 I haven't really missed not being able to jailbrake ATV3.

Though if your ATV2 is jail broken you have many more options such as xbmc (which there is heaps of info in the forums on already).

Beamer does look like an interesting solution for sending non-ATV compatible formats. However if most of the files are in .mkv, the OP may prefer re-muxing to .mp4 so as to build a more accessible library of videos. Up to you OP!

I think Mountain Lion will solve many of these problems because you will be able to natively screen share from the Mac to an ATV.

 

[Purakane]

Great thanks alot.
Will it also transfer over subtitles?

is there another program I can use for .avi files with the same results?

----------

I use Beamer for streaming to my ATV3. Simple drag and drop interface and the developers are constantly adding support for more formats (I haven't encountered a format that hasn't worked for me). It makes my ATV3 a lot my useful, paired with airplay on 10.8 I haven't really missed not being able to jailbrake ATV3.

Though if your ATV2 is jail broken you have many more options such as xbmc (which there is heaps of info in the forums on already).

my atv2 is on ver 4.3 lol need to get it to 4.4.4
but since megauploads is down...whats the point?

 

[Sedulous]

Great thanks alot.
Will it also transfer over subtitles?

is there another program I can use for .avi files with the same results?

----------



my atv2 is on ver 4.3 lol need to get it to 4.4.4
but since megauploads is down...whats the point?

If you are remuxing a .mkv containing .srt subtitles then yes, those can be included in a .mp4. If the subs are .sub, .ssa, or still in .vob then no, they won't work in a .mp4.

If you are transcoding using handbrake, you might be able to include subs. If the source has .txt subs, they can be included as soft subs. If they are .vob then they probably can only be hard subs (burned into the video).

If you are very keen on having soft subs, often you can find the appropriate .srt for various languages on the Internet.

I'm not a big fan of jail breaking ATV so I really can't offer much advice on that topic.

 

[Reserved]

At the moment Beamer is restricted to hard subs. Though support for soft subs is in development, as is the ability to choose audio stream.

I tried AirFlick and AirParrot, neither worked for me. AirFlick not at all, AirParrot had trouble with resolutions.

At the moment Mountain Lion's AirPlay mirrors the Mac's screen to the ATV, this works well, though Beamer is handy as I can send a stream to the ATV and still use the Mac for other things.

 

[MonkeySee....]

I've been using the ATV2 preset in Handbrake and haven't noticed any drop in quality if i'm honest?

 

[Steppy]

Get Subler. Start Subler, click File, choose New. This will open a blank window. Find your .mkv and drag it into that empty Subler document. It will then pop up a window that lists all the tracks/type within the .mkv file. You can select/de-select tracks for import using the check mark. For now, just make sure they are all selected. Click ok. Then choose File/Save. It will ask you for a file name. Then click ok. Then wait while it copies over the data streams to your new mp4 file (may take several minutes). When it is completed, you may want to use the meta data tagging feature (click Import/Search Meta data... or something like that).

I normally use Handbrake with the ATV2 preset and have been very pleased with the results, but after seeing your post I thought I would try Subler.

I converted my MKV file which was really fast and the M4V file was great and played fine outside of iTunes using VLC, but when I imported it into iTunes and played it, iTunes crashed. I tried several times and the same result.

The original MKV file was only 2.5GB, but I wasnt sure if I need to tick either or both of the 64 bit options that are available when saving... I am not sure what they do actually.

The other setting which confused me was in the audio where it says about downgrading to Dobly Prologic II. The original file is 6 channels and thats what I want the M4V to be.

I am running the latest version of Lion & iTunes.... any suggestions?

Thank you.

 

[Sedulous]

I normally use Handbrake with the ATV2 preset and have been very pleased with the results, but after seeing your post I thought I would try Subler.

I converted my MKV file which was really fast and the M4V file was great and played fine outside of iTunes using VLC, but when I imported it into iTunes and played it, iTunes crashed. I tried several times and the same result.

The original MKV file was only 2.5GB, but I wasnt sure if I need to tick either or both of the 64 bit options that are available when saving... I am not sure what they do actually.

The other setting which confused me was in the audio where it says about downgrading to Dobly Prologic II. The original file is 6 channels and thats what I want the M4V to be.

I am running the latest version of Lion & iTunes.... any suggestions?

Thank you.

What are the data streams in the .mkv? Perhaps there is something in there that iTunes doesn't like? Did you try dropping the .m4v file in iTunes again? I've never experienced a crash when adding a movie to iTunes. I've converted well over 500 mkv files.

You should not need to check any of the extra save options in Subler for your file. Lastly, Subler by default will convert AC3 (Dolby Digital) to AAC. You can disable the conversion. One thing I didn't like about the way Subler handles AC3 audio is that if you do have it convert, it removes the AC3 track entirely.

To be honest, I usually do not use Subler to remux my mkv files. I usually use MP4Tools. After opening the mkv in MP4Tools, I click the MP4 tab, passthrough video, passthrough audio (and usually also check "add stereo track" if one is not already present). If there are .srt subs, I usually choose to add those but be sure to select the mix/soft option.

 

[Steppy]

What are the data streams in the .mkv? Perhaps there is something in there that iTunes doesn't like? Did you try dropping the .m4v file in iTunes again? I've never experienced a crash when adding a movie to iTunes. I've converted well over 500 mkv files.

You should not need to check any of the extra save options in Subler for your file. Lastly, Subler by default will convert AC3 (Dolby Digital) to AAC. You can disable the conversion. One thing I didn't like about the way Subler handles AC3 audio is that if you do have it convert, it removes the AC3 track entirely.

To be honest, I usually do not use Subler to remux my mkv files. I usually use MP4Tools. After opening the mkv in MP4Tools, I click the MP4 tab, passthrough video, passthrough audio (and usually also check "add stereo track" if one is not already present). If there are .srt subs, I usually choose to add those but be sure to select the mix/soft option.

I will check the details of the file when I get home.

The file imports into iTunes ok, but as soon as I start playing it, it either immediately or a little way in causes iTunes to crash.

Funny you mention MP4Tools as I had the same issue with that.... iTunes crashing. The only program that works 100% of the time is Handbrake...

I will look into more detail when I get home.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Sedulous]

I will check the details of the file when I get home.

The file imports into iTunes ok, but as soon as I start playing it, it either immediately or a little way in causes iTunes to crash.

Funny you mention MP4Tools as I had the same issue with that.... iTunes crashing. The only program that works 100% of the time is Handbrake...

I will look into more detail when I get home.

Thanks for your help.

Sorry you have experienced so much trouble with your remux experience. It usually is not so troublesome. Handbrake does usually do a good job transcoding but it does lose quality because compressing an already compressed source always loses quality... and transcoding is time consuming.

It does sound like there is something in one of the data streams that iTunes/QT does not like. VLC is less fussy about errors. One quick thing you could try is to use Subler to "Optimize" the file. It isn't well explained by documentation but essentially "optimize" puts a stream atom and interlaces the audio and video for better streaming. I've done this for all of the files I have converted. It will take a little time (maybe 5-10 minutes).

Another thing you can try is to use MP4Tools to extract the data streams. You will get a H.264 file (video), and whatever audio tracks you have (AC3, AAC). Open a new document in Subler. First add the H.264 video track. Subler will ask you what the frame rate should be. Then save it. Then add the first audio track that you want. Then save it. Then add additional tracks that you want and save it. If you want to import meta-data tagging, do so. Then optimize the completed file with Subler. See if that sorts out the problem.

 

[Steppy]

Sorry you have experienced so much trouble with your remux experience. It usually is not so troublesome. Handbrake does usually do a good job transcoding but it does lose quality because compressing an already compressed source always loses quality... and transcoding is time consuming.

It does sound like there is something in one of the data streams that iTunes/QT does not like. VLC is less fussy about errors. One quick thing you could try is to use Subler to "Optimize" the file. It isn't well explained by documentation but essentially "optimize" puts a stream atom and interlaces the audio and video for better streaming. I've done this for all of the files I have converted. It will take a little time (maybe 5-10 minutes).

Another thing you can try is to use MP4Tools to extract the data streams. You will get a H.264 file (video), and whatever audio tracks you have (AC3, AAC). Open a new document in Subler. First add the H.264 video track. Subler will ask you what the frame rate should be. Then save it. Then add the first audio track that you want. Then save it. Then add additional tracks that you want and save it. If you want to import meta-data tagging, do so. Then optimize the completed file with Subler. See if that sorts out the problem.

I tired again last night and had better success.

One of the files converted OK with Subler and imported into iTunes and plays on my ATV2. The second one this time imported OK into iTunes and played in iTunes, but for some reason will not show up on my ATV2

I always thought whatever was in iTunes and played would automatically work on ATV2 - this has always been the case before.

I am not very clued up on the terminology of file codec/muxing etc, but it seems odd that one time a file would cause iTunes to crash, but then do exactly the same again and it works.....

Think I need to do a bit more experimenting. At least using Subler is much quicker than Handbrake, so I haven't got so long to wait to see the results each time.

 

[Bymatt]

ATV2 likes to have the

ACC sound file SECOND in line, right up after the VIDEO file and it needs to be the FIRST SOUND file. THEN should be the AC3 or SURROUND file if 5.1. ATV looks for a particular order, again top to bottom in the subler window, video, ACC, AC3...Also, while it seems counter intuitive, leave the second audio file, usually the surround line UNCHECKED. It will play just fine.

 

[Sedulous]

I tired again last night and had better success.

One of the files converted OK with Subler and imported into iTunes and plays on my ATV2. The second one this time imported OK into iTunes and played in iTunes, but for some reason will not show up on my ATV2

I always thought whatever was in iTunes and played would automatically work on ATV2 - this has always been the case before.

I am not very clued up on the terminology of file codec/muxing etc, but it seems odd that one time a file would cause iTunes to crash, but then do exactly the same again and it works.....

Think I need to do a bit more experimenting. At least using Subler is much quicker than Handbrake, so I haven't got so long to wait to see the results each time.

I am not sure why iTunes is crashing when you drop your videos into the library.

As far as not showing up on ATV, perhaps the ATV is just not refreshing the iTunes library contents/list quickly. Did you try backing out of the menu until you are at the ATV home screen?

 

[Steppy]

I am not sure why iTunes is crashing when you drop your videos into the library.

As far as not showing up on ATV, perhaps the ATV is just not refreshing the iTunes library contents/list quickly. Did you try backing out of the menu until you are at the ATV home screen?

Had a few more attempts at the weekend and iTunes seems to stop crashing now, but one particular file just will not show up on ATV, I even did a reset and still no joy.

I really like the idea of the speed as not having to convert the video with Subler, but I have decided to go back to using Handbrake as that just works 100% of the time. I always end up with the 5.1 sound track which also didnt seem to happen all the time with Subler and I find it really hard to see that the video quality is any different to the orginal file.

Thanks for your help

 

[Sedulous]

Had a few more attempts at the weekend and iTunes seems to stop crashing now, but one particular file just will not show up on ATV, I even did a reset and still no joy.

I really like the idea of the speed as not having to convert the video with Subler, but I have decided to go back to using Handbrake as that just works 100% of the time. I always end up with the 5.1 sound track which also didnt seem to happen all the time with Subler and I find it really hard to see that the video quality is any different to the orginal file.

Thanks for your help

There really is a difference because Handbrake is compressing an already lossy format. But that is up to you.

I think the difficulty you've experienced with remuxing may be because .mkv can contain various audio/video formats while .mp4 is more limited. If the video is H.264 and at least one track is AAC, it should work well in a iTunes .mp4. As far as 6 channel goes, if it isn't in the .mkv you won't get it by transcoding with Handbrake any way. There is absolutely no advantage to transcoding when a simple remux is sufficient.

 

[mic j]

There really is a difference because Handbrake is compressing an already lossy format. But that is up to you.

I think the difficulty you've experienced with remuxing may be because .mkv can contain various audio/video formats while .mp4 is more limited. If the video is H.264 and at least one track is AAC, it should work well in a iTunes .mp4. As far as 6 channel goes, if it isn't in the .mkv you won't get it by transcoding with Handbrake any way. There is absolutely no advantage to transcoding when a simple remux is sufficient.

The advantage is 1)the aTV won't choke on the lower bitrates of a compressed h.264 BR and 2)a wifi home network will more easily stream smaller file sizes than a larger file sizes without hiccups.

That's been my experience so far.

 

[Steppy]

There really is a difference because Handbrake is compressing an already lossy format. But that is up to you.

I think the difficulty you've experienced with remuxing may be because .mkv can contain various audio/video formats while .mp4 is more limited. If the video is H.264 and at least one track is AAC, it should work well in a iTunes .mp4. As far as 6 channel goes, if it isn't in the .mkv you won't get it by transcoding with Handbrake any way. There is absolutely no advantage to transcoding when a simple remux is sufficient.

It seems to be this one file.

1 original audio stream

2 subler to convert

3 converted audio stream

4 converted file in iTunes

When played through ATV only stereo sound is available and not the 6 channels

Does this help?
Thanks

 

[Sedulous]

The advantage is 1)the aTV won't choke on the lower bitrates of a compressed h.264 BR and 2)a wifi home network will more easily stream smaller file sizes than a larger file sizes without hiccups.

That's been my experience so far.

There isn't much to be gained by compressing an already compressed file. Sometimes it actually takes a higher bitrate to match the originally compressed source. It really depends on what the source file is like.

----------

It seems to be this one file.

1 original audio stream
Image

2 subler to convert
Image

3 converted audio stream
Image

4 converted file in iTunes
Image

When played through ATV only stereo sound is available and not the 6 channels

Does this help?
Thanks

It is strange that you have a 6-channel audio track that only plays two channels. You may want to seek advice on how to connect the ATV to your receiver (I don't have much advice for that). Are you certain the 6 channel audio actually has audio in the other channels?

 

[mic j]

There isn't much to be gained by compressing an already compressed file. Sometimes it actually takes a higher bitrate to match the originally compressed source. It really depends on what the source file is like.

Your right. It depends on the original file. For mp4 files with bitrates greater than 25Mbps, the aTV chokes and most of my BR's have bitrates greater than 25Mbps. Transcode to mp4 and my bitrates are below the threshold and play fine.

Believe me, I would love to not compress anything. I have all of my originals stored as unaltered iso's or mkv's. But I have tried remuxing my BR's to mp4 containers and so far have been unsuccessful at getting any to play on an aTV over a wifi network. I am certainly open to suggestions, though.

 

[Steppy]

There isn't much to be gained by compressing an already compressed file. Sometimes it actually takes a higher bitrate to match the originally compressed source. It really depends on what the source file is like.

----------



It is strange that you have a 6-channel audio track that only plays two channels. You may want to seek advice on how to connect the ATV to your receiver (I don't have much advice for that). Are you certain the 6 channel audio actually has audio in the other channels?

The ATV is connected directly to my Home Cinema via optical out and performs perfectly for all other files I have converted using Handbrake. I can change settings and use a pseudo surround, but I would prefer the proper separate channels. This problem file converts and works perfectly with 6 channels when converted from MKV to m4v using Handbrake, but not when using Subler. The only other MKV file I have converted with Subler worked fine, so there must be something odd about this problem one.

I will see what happens on the next MKV I try to convert.... I'm not giving up on Subler yet ;-)

 

[buklau]

Guys, keep in mind just because something is H.264 doesn't mean it's compatible. Apple TV (and probably other things like iTunes) only support playback of certain H.264 profiles/levels. Chances are the H.264 video in your Matroska container ISN'T a supported type (it rarely ever is in my experience).

This is why converting it via Handbrake profiles always works; with the right profile, it will always produce a video stream that your device is capable of decoding.

If the H.264 stream in the container is not one of the supported profiles/levels, I'm afraid there is nothing else to do but convert it to one.