Mojave and HFS+ -- it can be done

[Fishrrman]

I can confirm that Mojave runs under HFS+.

How I did it:
1. Downloaded the 1st developer beta and installed over a working copy of High Sierra. This converted the partition on the [platter-based] hard drive I used to APFS.
2. I then updated the install to beta 2 using Software Update. Still APFS.
3. I used SuperDuper to clone the result to an SSD initialized to HFS+.
4. SuperDuper cloned the install from APFS to HFS+ without problems.
5. I booted from the SSD, up-and-running now. Disk Utility sees and reports it as "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)", NOT as APFS.

So... it can be done.

Notes:
This is one time that CarbonCopyCloner failed me. It WOULD NOT do the job, would not permit me to select either source or target drives. Don't try this [yet] with CCC.

SuperDuper came through. I will note that on my first attempt, SD seemed to hang trying to do a "snapshot", or whatever. So I force-quit it and tried again.
This time SD breezed right over that step, and then went on with the clone.

My impression is that the only reason there's no pathway to install Mojave to HFS+ is because Apple wants to force us into APFS. Brings to mind how Mail.app tries to force the user into IMAP during initial setup, with no apparent way to set up a POP account.

I'm not sure what will happen with the next beta release.
I'm wondering if software update can update the HFS+ volume "as it is".
Will have to wait and see.

But you -can- keep using HFS+ with Mojave, if that's what you want.

 

[aevan]

Why would you want to keep using HFS+?

 

[tsialex]

I can confirm that Mojave runs under HFS+.

How I did it:
1. Downloaded the 1st developer beta and installed over a working copy of High Sierra. This converted the partition on the [platter-based] hard drive I used to APFS.
2. I then updated the install to beta 2 using Software Update. Still APFS.
3. I used SuperDuper to clone the result to an SSD initialized to HFS+.
4. SuperDuper cloned the install from APFS to HFS+ without problems.
5. I booted from the SSD, up-and-running now. Disk Utility sees and reports it as "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)", NOT as APFS.

So... it can be done.

Notes:
This is one time that CarbonCopyCloner failed me. It WOULD NOT do the job, would not permit me to select either source or target drives. Don't try this [yet] with CCC.

SuperDuper came through. I will note that on my first attempt, SD seemed to hang trying to do a "snapshot", or whatever. So I force-quit it and tried again.
This time SD breezed right over that step, and then went on with the clone.

My impression is that the only reason there's no pathway to install Mojave to HFS+ is because Apple wants to force us into APFS. Brings to mind how Mail.app tries to force the user into IMAP during initial setup, with no apparent way to set up a POP account.

I'm not sure what will happen with the next beta release.
I'm wondering if software update can update the HFS+ volume "as it is".
Will have to wait and see.

But you -can- keep using HFS+ with Mojave, if that's what you want.

You don't need all this insane juggling, Mojave supports HFS+ installs like High Sierra.

1) Disable SIP (boot from your Recovery partition, open terminal and run csrutil disable) to enable advanced startosinstall options.

2) Boot your 10.13 macOS disk and install Mojave with something like this:

sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Mojave\ Beta.app/Contents/Resources/startosinstall --volume /Volumes/MyEmptyDisk --converttoapfs NO

3) Done.

 

[Fishrrman]

tsialex -

Have you actually tried to do an install of Mojave to an HFS+ drive using the terminal command above? If so, did it work?

I have read from others that although using that command in terminal worked in High Sierra, it NO LONGER WORKS with Mojave. I have not actually verified that yet (since I have a solution that works).

I can't accept your advice as bona fide without a proven example.

Re aevan's remark:
"Why would you want to keep using HFS+?"

Because... I want to.
I have lots of old software utilities that won't work with APFS.
On top of that, APFS is still an unproven file system and Apple refuses to document all its facets.
I have no plans to use APFS in the future.
That -might- change someday, but not for now.
Thanks for your concern...

 

[aevan]

tsialex -


Because... I want to.
I have lots of old software utilities that won't work with APFS.
On top of that, APFS is still an unproven file system and Apple refuses to document all its facets.
I have no plans to use APFS in the future.
That -might- change someday, but not for now.
Thanks for your concern...

Well, the old software utilities that won't work I understand (but hey, maybe it's time for new utilities! ). The rest - "unproven", "no plans to use it" - that I don't get (what do you mean 'unproven' - it's been working without issues on millions of machines for a year now - I'd say that's 'proven'), but hey, whatever works for you, amirite? I am certainly not "concerned", I was just curious why wouldn't someone use APFS, thinking there might be some reason that I don't know about and find valid.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[tsialex]

tsialex -

Have you actually tried to do an install of Mojave to an HFS+ drive using the terminal command above? If so, did it work?

I have read from others that although using that command in terminal worked in High Sierra, it NO LONGER WORKS with Mojave. I have not actually verified that yet (since I have a solution that works).

I can't accept your advice as bona fide without a proven example.

Re aevan's remark:
"Why would you want to keep using HFS+?"

Because... I want to.
I have lots of old software utilities that won't work with APFS.
On top of that, APFS is still an unproven file system and Apple refuses to document all its facets.
I have no plans to use APFS in the future.
That -might- change someday, but not for now.
Thanks for your concern...

Yes, it works and installed here. You have to enable advanced options FIRST with csrutil disable.

 

[Fishrrman]

tsialex wrote:
"Yes, it works and installed here. You have to enable advanced options FIRST with csrutil disable."

OK, thanks very much for that information.
In that case, the "earlier reports" (from others) that the "converttoapfs NO" terminal command doesn't work with Mojave were in error.

So... to confirm... your method was:
1. Boot to recovery
2. Open terminal
3. Disable SIP using "csrutil disable" (actually, I keep SIP DISABLED on ALL my Macs)
4. Boot to Mac OS install volume, reopen terminal
5. Enter "sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Mojave\ Beta.app/Contents/Resources/startosinstall --volume /Volumes/MyEmptyDisk --converttoapfs NO" (without quotes)

Questions:
Looks like you ran this "over" an existing install of High Sierra with the Mojave installer in the Applications folder, right?

Does this work using a USB flash drive installer, as well? (perhaps you haven't tried yet).

Just want to get these points properly clarified for anyone else who would like to do this....

 

[tsialex]

tsialex wrote:
"Yes, it works and installed here. You have to enable advanced options FIRST with csrutil disable."

OK, thanks very much for that information.
In that case, the "earlier reports" (from others) that the "converttoapfs NO" terminal command doesn't work with Mojave were in error.

So... to confirm... your method was:
1. Boot to recovery
2. Open terminal
3. Disable SIP using "csrutil disable" (actually, I keep SIP DISABLED on ALL my Macs)
4. Boot to Mac OS install volume, reopen terminal
5. Enter "sudo /Applications/Install\ macOS\ Mojave\ Beta.app/Contents/Resources/startosinstall --volume /Volumes/MyEmptyDisk --converttoapfs NO" (without quotes)

Questions:
Looks like you ran this "over" an existing install of High Sierra with the Mojave installer in the Applications folder, right?

Does this work using a USB flash drive installer, as well? (perhaps you haven't tried yet).

Just want to get these points properly clarified for anyone else who would like to do this....

Yes, I’ve installed DP1 from High Sierra to another disk on my Mac Pro. At the time, the only way to install it on MP5,1, now on PB1 you can install if you have one of the suggested GPUs.

I’ve tried to found a way to run startosinstall on the createinstallmedia created USB installer and not found it yet, I’ll try again later.

 

[toru173]

You don't need all this insane juggling, Mojave supports HFS+ installs.

Just disable SIP (csrutil disable on your recovery partition) to enable advanced startosinstall options and install Mojave via startosinstall --converttoapfs NO.

I didn't see that option when I pulled apart startosinstall in the Mojave Beta app. Indeed, when I tried to get it to not auto-convert, I got a message indicating it was going to ignore the flag.

If I had to guess, it sounds like you’ve managed to use the version of startosinstall that shipped with High Sierra to install Mojave. If so, we’ll done!

 

[MrGlen]

Apparently, this doesn't work with the released 10.14 . I disabled SIP with csrutil, and the afp option isn't recognized .

I didn't see that option when I pulled apart startosinstall in the Mojave Beta app. Indeed, when I tried to get it to not auto-convert, I got a message indicating it was going to ignore the flag.

If I had to guess, it sounds like you’ve managed to use the version of startosinstall that shipped with High Sierra to install Mojave. If so, we’ll done!

 

[tsialex]

Apparently, this doesn't work with the released 10.14 . I disabled SIP with csrutil, and the afp option isn't recognized .

Yep, Apple removed it. You can do a CCC clone and it will convert from APFS to HFS+.

 

[TokMok3]

I can confirm that Mojave runs under HFS+.

How I did it:
1. Downloaded the 1st developer beta and installed over a working copy of High Sierra. This converted the partition on the [platter-based] hard drive I used to APFS.
2. I then updated the install to beta 2 using Software Update. Still APFS.
3. I used SuperDuper to clone the result to an SSD initialized to HFS+.
4. SuperDuper cloned the install from APFS to HFS+ without problems.
5. I booted from the SSD, up-and-running now. Disk Utility sees and reports it as "Mac OS Extended (Journaled)", NOT as APFS.

So... it can be done.

Notes:
This is one time that CarbonCopyCloner failed me. It WOULD NOT do the job, would not permit me to select either source or target drives. Don't try this [yet] with CCC.

SuperDuper came through. I will note that on my first attempt, SD seemed to hang trying to do a "snapshot", or whatever. So I force-quit it and tried again.
This time SD breezed right over that step, and then went on with the clone.

My impression is that the only reason there's no pathway to install Mojave to HFS+ is because Apple wants to force us into APFS. Brings to mind how Mail.app tries to force the user into IMAP during initial setup, with no apparent way to set up a POP account.

I'm not sure what will happen with the next beta release.
I'm wondering if software update can update the HFS+ volume "as it is".
Will have to wait and see.

But you -can- keep using HFS+ with Mojave, if that's what you want.

Thank you!!!

 

[MrGlen]

I can do a CCC clone of a Mojave apfs machine and restore it to a machine with an HFS+ formatted SSD??

Yep, Apple removed it. You can do a CCC clone and it will convert from APFS to HFS+.

 

[tsialex]

I can do a CCC clone of a Mojave apfs machine and restore it to a machine with an HFS+ formatted SSD??

Yes. Can CCC make a bootable backup of an APFS volume?

 

[smayer97]

I'm a little confused by the discussion here. Does Mojave installer automatically convert HDDs (not just SSDs) to APFS? What about if the HDDs or SSDs are external? Are they also automatically converted to APFS?

 

[MrGlen]

All I want to do, is take Mac A that has Mojave on it with APFS, "clone" it somehow to an image, and then restore that image to Mac B with an HFS+ formatted SSD and wind up with Mac B being a bootable duplicate of Mac A but with an HFS+ formatted SSD in it.

Because if I can do THAT, I can make a disk image of Mac B and deploy it with Deploy Studio like I always have. Is that too much to ask?

 

[toru173]

All I want to do, is take Mac A that has Mojave on it with APFS, "clone" it somehow to an image, and then restore that image to Mac B with an HFS+ formatted SSD and wind up with Mac B being a bootable duplicate of Mac A but with an HFS+ formatted SSD in it.

Because if I can do THAT, I can make a disk image of Mac B and deploy it with Deploy Studio like I always have. Is that too much to ask?

I’ve not tried it on Mojave, but AutoDMG gives you the option of choosing what filesystem to deploy to. Maybe I’ll try it tonight after I’ve freed up space!

 

[MrGlen]

AutoDMG's web site says that they've removed HFS+ support for 10.14

I’ve not tried it on Mojave, but AutoDMG gives you the option of choosing what filesystem to deploy to. Maybe I’ll try it tonight after I’ve freed up space!

[doublepost=1538066185][/doublepost]However, I now have a 2017 Macbook Pro running 10.14 on its internal SSD!

Props to tsialex for pointing me in the right direction. All I had to do was update an existing machine to 10.14 normally - no fancy workarounds, booting from external drives, patching the installer app, etc.

Then I ran CCC and created a dmg from the machine after it had been updated to 10.14 and had its SSD converted to APFS. I had CCC save the dmg file to an external HD.

Then, I used CCC to restore that dmg to a Macbook Pro that had an empty, HFS+ formatted SSD in it.

Once the restore was complete, the restored machine booted up on 10.14 running HFS+ no problem.

So far, so good.

 

[MrGlen]

One final thought. The finished product, a 2017 Macbook Pro running 10.14 Mojave on HFS+, images and deploys just fine with Deploy Studio to machines with unformatted hard drives, or drives formatted HFS+, just like any other version of macOS. So this method is a winner. At least for the time being

AutoDMG's web site says that they've removed HFS+ support for 10.14


[doublepost=1538066185][/doublepost]However, I now have a 2017 Macbook Pro running 10.14 on its internal SSD!

Props to tsialex for pointing me in the right direction. All I had to do was update an existing machine to 10.14 normally - no fancy workarounds, booting from external drives, patching the installer app, etc.

Then I ran CCC and created a dmg from the machine after it had been updated to 10.14 and had its SSD converted to APFS. I had CCC save the dmg file to an external HD.

Then, I used CCC to restore that dmg to a Macbook Pro that had an empty, HFS+ formatted SSD in it.

Once the restore was complete, the restored machine booted up on 10.14 running HFS+ no problem.

So far, so good.

 

[Auggie]

Well, the old software utilities that won't work I understand (but hey, maybe it's time for new utilities! ). The rest - "unproven", "no plans to use it" - that I don't get (what do you mean 'unproven' - it's been working without issues on millions of machines for a year now - I'd say that's 'proven'), but hey, whatever works for you, amirite? I am certainly not "concerned", I was just curious why wouldn't someone use APFS, thinking there might be some reason that I don't know about and find valid.

I just wanted at add my reasons of why I'm moving AWAY from APFS and back to HFS+ on my Mojave install:

1) I had a major disk corruption with my the initial final Mojave 10.14 release that Disk Utility could not fix. I would normally then go to my usual fail-safe repair util Disk Warrior which had saved my bacon countless times before, but the latest version still is not designed to work with APFS. Most of my valuable data was corrupted and not much of importance could be saved; I did have a backup, albeit one just before I upgraded to Mojave so it was somewhat dated. I had to do a completely new clean install and manually copy over the good files that I could scavange. The new Mojave install used APFS again of course, so my next step is to do the CCC/SuperDuper backup/restore method to HFS+. Maybe when Disk Warrior is updated to work on APFS drives will I contemplate switching to APFS, but not until the next reason is addressed by Apple.

2) Boot Camp for my cMP does not recognize APFS drives in Windows so I have to select an HFS+ boot volume first, restart into the Recovery Partition (Command-R during boot), then select the APFS volume. Since I'm using a RX580 GPU, I don't have access to the startup screen boot picker.

3) My older OS X boot volumes, such as El Capitan, don't recognize APFS drives. This isn't as critical as the Boot Camp issue so it's not a deal-breaker for me in regards to APFS. Still, it is a limitation that would be convenient to avoid.

 

[tsialex]

I just wanted at add my reasons of why I'm moving AWAY from APFS and back to HFS+ on my Mojave install:

1) I had a major disk corruption with my the initial final Mojave 10.14 release that Disk Utility could not fix. I would normally then go to my usual fail-safe repair util Disk Warrior which had saved my bacon countless times before, but the latest version still is not designed to work with APFS. Most of my valuable data was corrupted and not much of importance could be saved; I did have a backup, albeit one just before I upgraded to Mojave so it was somewhat dated. I had to do a completely new clean install and manually copy over the good files that I could scavange. The new Mojave install used APFS again of course, so my next step is to do the CCC/SuperDuper backup/restore method to HFS+. Maybe when Disk Warrior is updated to work on APFS drives will I contemplate switching to APFS, but not until the next reason is addressed by Apple.

2) Boot Camp for my cMP does not recognize APFS drives in Windows so I have to select an HFS+ boot volume first, restart into the Recovery Partition (Command-R during boot), then select the APFS volume. Since I'm using a RX580 GPU, I don't have access to the startup screen boot picker.

3) My older OS X boot volumes, such as El Capitan, don't recognize APFS drives. This isn't as critical as the Boot Camp issue so it's not a deal-breaker for me in regards to APFS. Still, it is a limitation that would be convenient to avoid.

You can install iMac Pro BootCamp drivers, then you have BootCamp support for APFS drives. Read here: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ut-a-boot-screen.2114788/page-9#post-26689280

 

[Auggie]

You can install iMac Pro BootCamp drivers, then you have BootCamp support for APFS drives. Read here: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ut-a-boot-screen.2114788/page-9#post-26689280

Interesting. Though I just skimmed through the thread to get a general idea of the process, there are two questions:

1) First post states NOT to use EFI for cMPs due to firmware corruption by Windows, but h9826790 step-by-step instructions appear to be using EFI; just not sure if he was doing this on a cMP or not. So, should we avoid EFI Windows on cMP? I've been using EFI Windows and don't know if I've ever experienced any firmware corrupts over the years.

2) h9826790 instructions appear to be applying to a stand-alone drive containing only the Windows OS as he describes deleting all partitions; I need to install on a single logical volume along with my primary OS X (Mojave). If this is possible, how would his instructions differ for this scenario?

 

[tsialex]

Interesting. Though I just skimmed through the thread to get a general idea of the process, there are two questions:

1) First post states NOT to use EFI for cMPs due to firmware corruption by Windows, but h9826790 step-by-step instructions appear to be using EFI; just not sure if he was doing this on a cMP or not. So, should we avoid EFI Windows on cMP? I've been using EFI Windows and don't know if I've ever experienced any firmware corrupts over the years.

2) h9826790 instructions appear to be applying to a stand-alone drive containing only the Windows OS as he describes deleting all partitions; I need to install on a single logical volume along with my primary OS X (Mojave). If this is possible, how would his instructions differ for this scenario?

Install W10 via BootCamp/CSM, install iMac Pro BootCamp drivers, done. Works with partitions or whole drives.

 

[Auggie]

Install W10 via BootCamp/CSM, install iMac Pro BootCamp drivers, done. Works with partitions or whole drives.

Just like I how I did it before, got it.

EFI or legacy BIOS?

 

[tsialex]

Just like I how I did it before, got it.

EFI or legacy BIOS?

BootCamp/CSM/BIOS.