MP 1,1-5,1 New MAC Pro 4.1, no HDD, where to start?

[Oldmopars]

So, I am neither new to MACs or to computers. I have a Macbook Pro M2 MAX I use every day. I also have about 15 other computers running various versions of Windows or Linux.
However, I have always loved the Mac Pro cheese grater style. I had planned to buy a broken one and use the case to build an ATX computer in. That fell through and I ended up buying not 1, but 5 Mac Pros. 3 2008 and 2 2009 4.1s. All are complete except one thing, no Hdd.
I have plenty of blank SSD Sata, or HDD's, but no Mac OS.
I tried to download it to my Macbook, but it refused as it is older than what it has. It is running the latest version out right now.
The second issue I have is that when I connect a monitor, I get nothing. I have 5 "Video cards", all made during the Bush administration. I have tried them all, and I only get a boot chime, no display.
Learning how to troubleshoot this stuff is what I like, so I am open to both answers and links to resources on figuring it out.
BTW, the keyboard is a "Non-Mac" custom built keyboard and the display is just some random old monitor my son left behind. Good thing is, it has VGA, HDMI and Display ports as well as RCA. But it gets no signal on any of them.

 

[tsialex]

PC GPUs do not provide pre-boot configuration support with a MacPro4,1/5,1. Get an AppleOEM one, like a Apple GT120 or ATI HD 5770, or you won't get anywhere easily. GT120 is usually the smart choice for a testing/debugging GPU, no requirement of power connection/cable and work with MacPro3,1 also.

You'll need El Capitan or earlier for a MacPro4,1.

 

[reader50]

Edit: tried to supply a page with direct Apple links to macOS installers. Unfortunately, that page seems to be a no-no here. Also, you need something bootable before you can use an installer. Hopefully you can use Internet Recovery, once you have video output.

 

[tsialex]

Hopefully you can use Internet Recovery, once you have video output.

There is no Internet Recovery with Mac Pros before late-2013 Mac Pro.

macOS 10.7 and newer (except Mavericks) are available directly from Apple:

How to download and install macOS - Apple Support

Download and install current or previous versions of the Mac operating system on compatible Mac computers.

support.apple.com

 

[Oldmopars]

PC GPUs do not provide pre-boot configuration support with a MacPro4,1/5,1. Get an AppleOEM one, like a Apple GT120 or ATI HD 5770, or you won't get anywhere easily. GT120 is usually the smart choice for a testing/debugging GPU, no requirement of power connection/cable and work with MacPro3,1 also.

You'll need El Capitan or earlier for a MacPro4,1.

So, all 5 Macs came with a GPU of some kind. I have a GT210, a GeForce 9800, 2 ATI HD2600's and 1 unknown card that I think is more of just a display card.
Will the GT210 work? I know it must have at some point, these computers all came from Washington State University, and the only thing done to them was to remove the HDD.
I also have an RX570 4GB, an RX580 8GB, 2 GTX 970's and a GT1030. I also have a GTX 1080 8gb, but know it won't work.
Of the cards that came with it, all of them have a DVI, 1 has a mini HDMI and my RX 570/580 have a VGA.
The 2 things I currently do not have are a monitor that uses DVI, and adapter from DVI to anything my monitor will use, and I don't have a wired Apple/Mac keyboard.
I have several monitors, but they either have no DVI input, or are huge 4K monsters.
While I do love this older stuff, I really wish they would have standardized the cables a lot sooner.
***EDIT***
I just double checked, the card I have is in fact a Nvidia GeForce GT120, it even says Apple Inc. Model No: A1310. As I get the same results from my other cards, I suspect my issue is with the monitor or my cable.

 

[tsialex]

GT210 is not an AppleOEM GPU. You need at least one real Apple GPU from a MacPro4,1/5,1 to start the tests/upgrade firmware/run AHT/ASD/etc.

Until you have pre-boot configuration support working, you'll get nowhere.

Even if your HD 2600XT could be a real AppleOEM, 11 in 10 of these GPUs are defective/dead.

 

[Oldmopars]

Last night I did figure out how to get Mac OS to download on my Macbook Pro. I then followed the steps to make a bootable USB. However, I still have no display and I used 10.14.
I will do it again and try 10.11 or older this time.
I still need to figure out the display issue.
Am I better off getting an adapter to go from DVI to HDMI, or find an older monitor that uses DVI? Maybe an older Mac monitor?

 

[tsialex]

AppleOEM GT120 have DVI and miniDP outputs. Pre-boot configuration support works with both outputs.

You are not getting output because you are installing PC GPUs or dead AppleOEM GPUs… PC GPU only will have the display working AFTER macOS loads the GPU drivers.

For all effects, you won't select the bootable USB with a PC GPU. If you had experience with a Mac Pro, you could make it work, but as a newbie, buy a real working AppleOEM GPU from a MacPro4,1/5,1 and avoid so much unneeded trouble.

Avoid 4K displays or any display that is HDMI only. MacPro4,1/MacPro5,1/some AppleOEM GPUs have issues with 4K displays/TVs where the display only works AFTER macOS loads the GPU drivers.

Try to use a monitor with DVI/DP. For now, avoid adapters that convert one type to other. miniDP to full size DP is usually not a problem, but then you have the 4K issue.

 

[Oldmopars]

AppleOEM GT120 have DVI and miniDP outputs. Pre-boot configuration support works with both outputs.

You are not getting output because you are installing PC GPUs or dead AppleOEM GPUs… PC GPU only will have the display working AFTER macOS loads the GPU drivers.

For all effects, you won't select the bootable USB with a PC GPU. If you had experience with a Mac Pro, you could make it work, but as a newbie, buy a real working AppleOEM GPU from a MacPro4,1/5,1 and avoid so much unneeded trouble.

Avoid 4K displays or any display that is HDMI only. MacPro4,1/MacPro5,1/some AppleOEM GPUs have issues with 4K displays/TVs where the display only works AFTER macOS loads the GPU drivers.

Try to use a monitor with DVI/DP. For now, avoid adapters that convert one type to other. miniDP to full size DP is usually not a problem, but then you have the 4K issue.

I am using the original Apple GT120 GPU. It was installed in it and I was told that it does work. However I get nothing from it when using the Mini HDMI.
I also have 2 ATI HD2600 and 1 9800GT. All of these were installed in the Mac's when I got them.
The "Monitor" I am using is actually a TV. With as old and crappy as it is, I suspect it is 720p, if that. If it is 1080p, it is the worst 1080p TV I have ever seen.
Could it being a TV and not a true monitor be why it is not getting a signal? I just keep it on the bench for testing my PCs.

 

[tsialex]

my RX 570/580 have a VGA.

AFAIK, AMD removed VGA from GPUs years and years before the RX 580 family was released, you are probably mistaking the DVI output with VGA.

RX 580 is only supported after 10.12.6 (last update of Sierra), Sierra does not work with a 2009 Mac Pro until you cross-flash it to MacPro5,1 firmware. You are limited from 10.6 (Snow Leopard) to 10.11 (El Capitan) right now.

So, no pre-boot configuration support and no macOS support, save it for much later.

I am using the original Apple GT120 GPU. It was installed in it and I was told that it does work. However I get nothing from it when using the Mini HDMI.

There is no miniHDMI with an AppleOEM GT120, just one DVI and two miniDP.

I also have 2 ATI HD2600 and 1 9800GT. All of these were installed in the Mac's when I got them.

I wouldn’t waste anytime with a HD2600XT or 9800GT, for different reasons.

I’ve written about the HD2600XT earlier, most if not all are dead because a manufacture defect inside the GPU main chip.

Did you tested the GPUs with a PC before hand? Do it, so you do not waste any time with a dead GPU while trying to get the display working with a Mac Pro.

The "Monitor" I am using is actually a TV. With as old and crappy as it is, I suspect it is 720p, if that. If it is 1080p, it is the worst 1080p TV I have ever seen.
Could it being a TV and not a true monitor be why it is not getting a signal? I just keep it on the bench for testing my PCs.

A lot of TVs do not show pre-boot configuration support, mostly because the pre-boot configuration support is usually a resolution/ratio that TVs do not have.

Anyway, a known working DVI display will get you answers.

 

[Oldmopars]

AFAIK, AMD removed VGA from GPUs years and years before the RX 580 family was released, you are probably mistaking the DVI output with VGA.

RX 580 is only supported after 10.12.6 (last update of Sierra), Sierra does not work with a 2009 Mac Pro until you cross-flash it to MacPro5,1 firmware. You are limited from 10.6 (Snow Leopard) to 10.11 (El Capitan) right now.

So, no pre-boot configuration support and no macOS support, save it for much later.



There is no miniHDMI with an AppleOEM GT120, just one DVI and two miniDP.



I wouldn’t waste anytime with a HD2600XT or 9800GT, for different reasons.

I’ve written about the HD2600XT earlier, most if not all are dead because a manufacture defect inside the GPU main chip.

Did you tested the GPUs with a PC before hand? Do it, so you do not waste any time with a dead GPU while trying to get the display working with a Mac Pro.



A lot of TVs do not show pre-boot configuration support, mostly because the pre-boot configuration support is usually a resolution/ratio that TVs do not have.

Anyway, a known working DVI display will get you answers.

I should wait until I wake up a bit more before typing. You are right, the RX570/580 do not have a VGA, I was looking at another card I have.
I also did not know the small port on the GT120 was Mini-DP, I thought it was a mini HDMI. Again, I hate all the different possible display outputs. I have a box full of cables. Every different kind. Except, the one I need right now.

So, as I have several Macs in the house, I never work on them, I am always building PCs, I think I am expecting the wrong things and getting confused.
The current SSD is blank. If I make a boot drive using 10.6-10.11, will it boot from it with no action from me?
With a PC, it will POST (power on self test), does the Mac have anything like that? If I power it on with a blank SSD and a boot USB Drive, will I get something to display on the Monitor? If so, how long should I wait for it?
Again, I build PC's all the time, but always just use my Macs. So, I am having to learn all the different things to expect and do.
BTW, I got my first Apple, a II+ back in 1983. We used it along side of a TRS80 Color Computer, a Texas Instruments Ti99 and in 1985 a Sanyo MBC550. 40+ years later and I feel like I am still drinking from a fire hose learning what I need to learn.

 

[Oldmopars]

Any idea what this card is? I suspect a "Display card", VGA, S-Video and DVI. None of the numbers seem to make sense as to what it is.
**Edit**
I used Google image and found it is an ATI Radeon X300, complete Poo.

 

[tsialex]

I should wait until I wake up a bit more before typing. You are right, the RX570/580 do not have a VGA, I was looking at another card I have.
I also did not know the small port on the GT120 was Mini-DP, I thought it was a mini HDMI. Again, I hate all the different possible display outputs. I have a box full of cables. Every different kind. Except, the one I need right now.

So, as I have several Macs in the house, I never work on them, I am always building PCs, I think I am expecting the wrong things and getting confused.
The current SSD is blank. If I make a boot drive using 10.6-10.11, will it boot from it with no action from me?

No. You have to instruct the Mac Pro to boot from the USB installer, you have to choose what you wanna boot with the Apple native BootPicker (power on pressing Option key until you see the BootPicker). This is the Apple native BootPicker:

Without a GPU with pre-boot configuration support you can't easily boot a macOS installer and since you won't see anything, this is a moot point.

With a PC, it will POST (power on self test), does the Mac have anything like that?

Yes, Macs also have POST, but you need a GPU that supports pre-boot configuration.

Without a GPU that works with the Mac Pro firmware, you won't have display when in POST, no boot screens, no boot picker, no display.

If I power it on with a blank SSD and a boot USB Drive, will I get something to display on the Monitor?

Only with a GPU that supports pre-boot configuration support. AppleOEM, Mac Edition, flashed GPUs.

If so, how long should I wait for it?

You should have the  screen displayed between a minute or two when you have an AppleOEM installed.

Time for POST with a Mac Pro is very variable, depends on how much memory/PCIe cards/disks are currently installed.

Again, I build PC's all the time, but always just use my Macs. So, I am having to learn all the different things to expect and do.

Macs are not PCs and behave very differently. You can trace parallels, but a Mac is not a PC and behaves very differently, specially with pre-boot.

No BIOS, GPUs have to follow lot's of requirements…

BTW, I got my first Apple, a II+ back in 1983. We used it along side of a TRS80 Color Computer, a Texas Instruments Ti99 and in 1985 a Sanyo MBC550. 40+ years later and I feel like I am still drinking from a fire hose learning what I need to learn.

Yep, another steep incline now, lot's of things to learn…

 

[Oldmopars]

OK, so I DO have an Apple GT120 installed, so the supported GPU issue should be fine.
So, with it being a 4.1, with an AppleOEM GPU, what OS do you suggest I start with?

 

[tsialex]

OK, so I DO have an Apple GT120 installed, so the supported GPU issue should be fine.

Do you have the  grey screen at power up? If you don't have, you won't get anywhere.

So, with it being a 4.1, with an AppleOEM GPU, what OS do you suggest I start with?

El Capitan or whatever 10.6 to 10.11 you can get downloaded and make the usb installer.

 

[Oldmopars]

OK, so now I am really confused. I have tried several GPU's including the GT120 in both 2009 4,1 cMPs and neither will give me any display at all. No output to the screen.
However, I took one of my 2008's and put the very same GT120 into it, same screen, same cable and I got a display. So I wanted to see if it would allow me to pick a boot drive. So I grabbed a HDD out of one of my PC's that has Linux Mint on it, and it booted right up into Mint, no issues. It just worked.
So, what am I missing on the 2009s? I wasn't wanting to have Mint installed, but I am going to celebrate the small win anyway.
Why would the 2009s give me a boot chime, but no display using the very same card that works just fine in the 2008?

 

[tsialex]

Could be anything, corrupted BootROM, spent BR2032 RTC battery, defective PCIe slot, etc etc etc.

 

[Oldmopars]

Could be anything, corrupted BootROM, spent BR2032 RTC battery, defective PCIe slot, etc etc etc.

Sorry for all the questions, Mac OS and Apples way of doing this is so different, it seems I figure out one thing, and create 6 more questions.
I have not swapped out the BR2032 RTC batteries yet, but I have some new ones on hand and will do that this morning.
Can they cause these issues?
Last night I took one of the 2008s and put the GT120 in it. I turned it on and I got a signal to the monitor. It was just a grey screen, but the output was there. But because I had no drives in it, there was no drive select options.
So, just to see if the Mac would show me an option, I grabbed a HDD with Linux Mint on it.
I put that in and turned it on. It never gave the option of selecting a disk and it booted right into Linux Mint. Everything was working just fine.
So, I thought I could test the other GPUs I had. I turned it off, put in the first GPU, and nothing. I thought it maybe was bad, so I went to the next one, same thing. 4 GPUs later and none were giving a display.
I grabbed the GT120, put it back as a sanity check, and it will not display either.
I know the GT120 is good, it worked. Did Linux change something so that it now does not know what to do with the GPU?
At this point I know that the 2008 can be fully functional, it was for half an hour, but clearly something has happened and it is not happy anymore.
For the record, I use Linux Mint all the time for my 3D printers, it is the control host for Klipper. However for a desk top computer, I would prefer to use Mac OS, but to see these come back to life, I will start with anything that works.
Any insights as to why it worked once, but then not again?

 

[tsialex]

Sorry for all the questions, Mac OS and Apples way of doing this is so different, it seems I figure out one thing, and create 6 more questions.
I have not swapped out the BR2032 RTC batteries yet, but I have some new ones on hand and will do that this morning.
Can they cause these issues?

I wouldn't list it if not…

Once you replace the BR2032 (do not use a CR2032), you'll need to reset the SMC (disconnect the mains cable from the PSU for at least 20s). Read the relevant section on the Apple Technician Guide.

Last night I took one of the 2008s and put the GT120 in it. I turned it on and I got a signal to the monitor. It was just a grey screen, but the output was there. But because I had no drives in it, there was no drive select options.
So, just to see if the Mac would show me an option, I grabbed a HDD with Linux Mint on it.
I put that in and turned it on. It never gave the option of selecting a disk and it booted right into Linux Mint. Everything was working just fine.
So, I thought I could test the other GPUs I had. I turned it off, put in the first GPU, and nothing. I thought it maybe was bad, so I went to the next one, same thing. 4 GPUs later and none were giving a display.
I grabbed the GT120, put it back as a sanity check, and it will not display either.
I know the GT120 is good, it worked. Did Linux change something so that it now does not know what to do with the GPU?

I don't think so, but you can always reset the NVRAM e SMC.

At this point I know that the 2008 can be fully functional, it was for half an hour, but clearly something has happened and it is not happy anymore.
For the record, I use Linux Mint all the time for my 3D printers, it is the control host for Klipper. However for a desk top computer, I would prefer to use Mac OS, but to see these come back to life, I will start with anything that works.
Any insights as to why it worked once, but then not again?

Didn't you ever got a problematic PC that works once in a moon and then becomes totally dead? Macs do it too. Usually a PSU problem, but could be anywhere that have capacitors, like the backplane or CPU tray.

Do not forget that your Mac Pro is now around 16 years old, you'll have issues to address.

 

[Oldmopars]

OK, so here is where I am at now. I am at least moving forward.
I now have the boot screen back. 2008, GT120 and the screen is just a small RPi screen, but it works. The TV/Monitor may be giving me problems, but this,

while small and upside down, is working.
So, from here, what OS should I use? Can it boot from a USB then write the OS to a drive, or do I need to put the OS on the drive? Just to get things working, I have 120GB SSD (SATA), or a 120GB HDD. However, writing to the SSD would be easier, my Macbook can write to it, but not the HDD due to the power needed.

 

[Oldmopars]

I am going to buy some BR2032 batteries, but I have some new CR2032s on hand so I swapped that in for testing. The battery I pulled out was also a CR2032, but have no idea how long it was in there.

 

[tsialex]

OK, so here is where I am at now. I am at least moving forward.
I now have the boot screen back. 2008, GT120 and the screen is just a small RPi screen, but it works. The TV/Monitor may be giving me problems, but this,
View attachment 2535689
while small and upside down, is working.
So, from here, what OS should I use?

I've already answer it when you asked the first time - El Capitan 10.11.6 is the most recent macOS release for both MacPro3,1 and MacPro4,1.

How to download and install macOS - Apple Support

Download and install current or previous versions of the Mac operating system on compatible Mac computers.

support.apple.com

Can it boot from a USB then write the OS to a drive,

Yes, it can boot from a macOS installer USB key made by createinstallmedia.

Just connect the macOS USB installer to the USB port and power on the Mac Pro while pressing Option/Alt key. Select the El Capitan installer on the native BootPicker.

or do I need to put the OS on the drive?

No.

Just to get things working, I have 120GB SSD (SATA), or a 120GB HDD. However, writing to the SSD would be easier, my Macbook can write to it, but not the HDD due to the power needed.

You just need to make a working macOS USB installer.

 

[reader50]

... The TV/Monitor may be giving me problems, but this, while small and upside down, is working.

Just an FYI, the picture is upside-down because the monitor is mounted upside-down. Once macOS is installed and booted, you can change the screen rotation 180 degrees via System Preferences -> Displays to correct for this. You won't be able to do this during installation, only after you're booted into a full macOS install.

 

[Oldmopars]

Sorry I am a PITA, but I really do appreciate your help on this. Between your help here, google, YouTube, and the Apple web site I have been able to learn enough to get one 2008 and one 2009 up and running on Lion. I know I will want to update these and the 2009 I will be updating to a 5.1 and I hope using one of my RX580's in it.
The biggest issue I ran into had to do with that stupid TV/Monitor. The Mac just did not like it. Switching to the small RPi screen allowed me to get it to display an image and let me know it worked.
As of right now I only have a cable for MiniDP to HDMI, and all of the GPU's it came with are DVI. So, I ordered a cable so I can test the other cards.
BTW, what is the highest OS the 3,1 can go?
I suspect the real limiting factor on usefulness of the 3,1 will be its OS. I may try running Mint on one to see if it opens up any more possibilities.
Again, thank you for the help.

My Happy 3,1.

 

[tsialex]

Second time that you asked something I've already posted…

El Capitan 10.11.6 is the most recent macOS release for both MacPro3,1 and MacPro4,1.