MP 1,1-5,1 New to Macs , Just acquired a Mac Pro 5.1

[Davehillbo]

Hi all

I have just acquired a Mac Pro 5.1 with the following spec:

48gb of DDR3 1333Mhz (6x8gb) Unbuffered RAM
2x Xeon X5690 CPUs
2x 120gb SATA SSDs
2x 1tb WD Black HDDs
1x 5770 1gb.
2x DVD Writers

I have since flashed a Asus 7970 with a modified ROM file so I have the boot screen, and this is now installed.

Im aware this is quite an old machine, and I'm wanting to keep it in tip top performance, though I have just read that using an UEFI install of Win10 is an absolute Nono due to the nvram/bootrom degrading. I have since totally cleaned that drive and have performed a MBR install of 10 and also have a install of Mojave (win 10 on 1 ssd, macOS on another). This config works really well, but I am worried about the NVRAM/bootrom issue.
What can I do to limit damage to it?

Be gentle, Im new to Macs.

Thanks in advance.

Dave.

 

[chabig]

I have never heard of NVRAM damage. I think it's bogus.

 

[tsialex]

There are two different issues at play.

First one is the useful life of the SPI flash memory itself. The SPI flash memories used on the Mac Pro backplane are manufacturer rated to 100.000 cycles of non-contiguous erases/re-writes. The MacPro NVRAM is stored on the same SPI flash as the BootROM, so the expected life is greatly reduced by the constant contiguous erases and re-writes and when the NAND cells of the NVRAM area fail, your Mac Pro bricks since it's just one SPI flash. There is no form of NAND cell management, overprovisioning or even spreading writes with any MacPro earlier than late-2013, that's why MacPro6,1 don't suffer so much dead SPIs, with the newer Mac Pros Apple implemented several VSS stores inside the SPI flash, spreading the writes.

The second issue is that the "filesystem" used inside the NVRAM volume was not designed to be in constant usage after at least 9 years for mid-2012/11+ years for mid-2010/13+ years for early-2009s. The circular log design was based on how the NVRAM was used on 2008ish and is not robust enough for the constant usage of the NVRAM by modern macOS/iCloud. When garbage collection fails and start to corrupting the NVRAM volume, you also have a brick.

While you can't overcome the age/past usage of the SPI flash memory, you can lessen the garbage collection/cycles of write/erase with a cleaned/upgraded/reconstructed BootROM image. If the SPI flash memory fails, you can replace it yourself (if you can se-solder/solder a 8-pin SMD chip) or buy a MATT card and flash your clean/reconstructed BootROM image to it.

 

[Davehillbo]

Thank you for the quick Reply Tsialex.

Can I limit the writes to the nvram by using an OS that does not write to it as much? I take it the Windows 10 MBR install does not write to it?

Thanks again

David

 

[sfalatko]

Hi all

I have just acquired a Mac Pro 5.1 with the following spec:

48gb of DDR3 1333Mhz (6x8gb) Unbuffered RAM
2x Xeon X5690 CPUs
2x 120gb SATA SSDs
2x 1tb WD Black HDDs
1x 5770 1gb.
2x DVD Writers

I have since flashed a Asus 7970 with a modified ROM file so I have the boot screen, and this is now installed.

Im aware this is quite an old machine, and I'm wanting to keep it in tip top performance, though I have just read that using an UEFI install of Win10 is an absolute Nono due to the nvram/bootrom degrading. I have since totally cleaned that drive and have performed a MBR install of 10 and also have a install of Mojave (win 10 on 1 ssd, macOS on another). This config works really well, but I am worried about the NVRAM/bootrom issue.
What can I do to limit damage to it?

Be gentle, Im new to Macs.

Thanks in advance.

Dave.

Welcome - there is a TON of information and many helpful users in this forum to help you understand, upgrade, and even keep your cMP5,1 going well beyond its expectations.

The last officially supported version of macOS is Mojave. Using a patched install (Catalina) or some of us would say better - OpenCore - you can install Big Sur or Monterey.

Here are some threads to read - cMP {classicMacPro}{4,1 & 5,1} - Upgrade Guide Sticky Discussion will give you a lot of thoughts on upgrade paths though your machine is pretty well specked in the processor/memory realm. Check out what version of bootrom you have - 144.0.0.0.0 is the latest. A key way to get more performance out of your cMP is to use a PCIe card mounted SSD or a NVME drive.

If you need to upgrade your bootrom you can look at this thread - MP5,1: BootROM thread | 144.0.0.0.0

There is a lot more but those will get you thinking.

Enjoy,
sfalatko

 

[tsialex]

Thank you for the quick Reply Tsialex.

Can I limit the writes to the nvram by using an OS that does not write to it as much? I take it the Windows 10 MBR install does not write to it?

Thanks again

David

Modern macOS/Windows have a heavy usage of the NVRAM and unless you go back to Leopard/SnowLeopard and no iCloud, it's not really possible. You also have to account that is a 9 to 13 years old SPI flash memory that you don't know how was used previously and is on the sunset of the expected useful life. Seems alarmist, not so if you browse the Mac Pro forum and see how much people ask help with bricks, but you have to prepare for its failure.

Windows CSM/BIOS/BootCamp don't have the Windows SecureBoot that UEFI Windows installs have and can be blocked by OpenCore, but it's not always possible to have a Windows CSM/BIOS/BootCamp install, for example NVMe support require that you have a UEFI Windows install. Windows SecureBoot is not the primary cause of bricks, but greatly helps since the dbs/PKs/certificates installed take a lot of space inside the VSS store, making garbage collection work on overdrive.

 

[Davehillbo]

Getcha, thank you for the info its very useful

Is there a way to test the status of the nvram?

 

[tsialex]

Getcha, thank you for the info its very useful

Is there a way to test the status of the nvram?

First dump your BootROM image:

MP5,1: BootROM thread | 144.0.0.0.0

How to do a BootROM dump with ROMTool: If you are running anything newer than Mavericks, you will need to disable SIP. You can boot your Recovery partition or you can boot a createinstallmedia USB installer (≥10.11) to disable SIP. Boot your Recovery partition or boot a createinstallmedia USB...

forums.macrumors.com

Then you can start checking the available space:

MP5,1: BootROM thread | 144.0.0.0.0

How to check the health of the NVRAM/if the garbage collection is still working: There is a extremely simple way (simple here as in not need to know how the NVRAM works/check free space indicators/validate checksums and etc) to check if the garbage collection failed and the need to reflash with...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Davehillbo]

Hi again.

Having looked at my nvram free space appears to be 24576

What shall I do as a precaution for future failure?
Thanks again

David.

 

[tsialex]

Hi again.

Having looked at my nvram free space appears to be 24576

What shall I do as a precaution for future failure?
Thanks again

David.

The only thing that you can do yourself is a deep NRAM reset (install a wired keyboard and press/keep pressed CMD-Option-P-R until you hear the fifth chime, you need to continuously reset the NVRAM at least four times) and then check again if you have any improvements.

If not, you will need a BootROM reconstruction service, I'll send a PM with instructions/cost.

 

[Davehillbo]

Done as requested, free space is now 34845, does that mean its healthy?

Thanks again!

 

[tsialex]

Done as requested, free space is now 34845, does that mean its healthy?

Thanks again!

Right now, yes - you have to track it over a period of time.

If you gonna use OpenCore and Monterey, you will need to flash your clean dump before and after any software updates. MacPro5,1 NVRAM design is completely obsolete and insufficient for modern macOS usage, see how much people are having problems with 12.3 update, you have to be proactive to avoid bricking.

 

[Davehillbo]

Right now, yes - you have to track it over a period of time.

If you gonna use OpenCore and Monterey, you will need to flash your clean dump before and after any software updates. MacPro5,1 NVRAM design is completely obsolete and insufficient for modern macOS usage, see how much people are having problems with 12.3 update, you have to be proactive to avoid bricking.

I’m just going to keep it as mojave and dualboot with win10 mbr. I don’t think I need opencore. I appreciate your help thank you

 

[Davehillbo]

Thank you very much all for your help, finished the build and I’m very happy with it, and fits a 980ti hydro lol.

 

[ddhhddhh2]

First dump your BootROM image:

MP5,1: BootROM thread | 144.0.0.0.0

How to do a BootROM dump with ROMTool: If you are running anything newer than Mavericks, you will need to disable SIP. You can boot your Recovery partition or you can boot a createinstallmedia USB installer (≥10.11) to disable SIP. Boot your Recovery partition or boot a createinstallmedia USB...

forums.macrumors.com

Then you can start checking the available space:

MP5,1: BootROM thread | 144.0.0.0.0

How to check the health of the NVRAM/if the garbage collection is still working: There is a extremely simple way (simple here as in not need to know how the NVRAM works/check free space indicators/validate checksums and etc) to check if the garbage collection failed and the need to reflash with...

forums.macrumors.com

Hi @tsialex, I see you encourage people to 'periodically' clear the SPI Flash, does that mean.

1. deep erase NVRAM? (four or five times)
2. use ROMTool and click "Flash System ROM"?

Since my cMP is currently using OpenCore boot, I haven't done this once since I started using OpenCore, not even when I installed Monterey in one of my M.2 SSDs.

However, I can only say that I was lucky that nothing happened, but for tracking and maintenance purposes, it seemed like something I should do. But I was worried about side effects, yes, in fact I was always worried about not being able to boot up after deep erasing NVRAM. I've had this happen on some computers a long, long time ago, and I've probably become a bit superstitious and won't do this unless I have to.

So I'm wondering, when you encourage the "clear SPI Flash" procedure, do you mean deep clean NVRAM or press "Flash System ROM" in ROMTool?

Also, does the SPI Flash erase process take up a cycle of the SPI Flash? I used ROMTool to dump System ROM yesterday, and opened it with UEFITool, it shows: Full size: 9F75h (40821). I just woke up the computer and looked at it again and it showed: Full size: 9CD3h (40147).

This is the current state after waking up the computer (cMP is 2010 Mac Pro 5,1, dual X5690) :

 

[tsialex]

Hi @tsialex, I see you encourage people to 'periodically' clear the SPI Flash, does that mean.

1. deep erase NVRAM? (four or five times)

Deep erase (powering your Mac Pro and continuously pressing CMD-Option-P-R until you hear the fifth chime) = forcing garbage collection, a process that sometimes take 11 re-boots to fully conclude.

2. use ROMTool and click "Flash System ROM"?

Yes, but flashing a never booted/reconstructed BootROM image or if you don't have it, the best ever image you dumped.
If you want to clean-up, upgrade to the most recent BootROM image components and have it reconstructed, see the PM I'm gonna send you.

Since my cMP is currently using OpenCore boot, I haven't done this once since I started using OpenCore, not even when I installed Monterey in one of my M.2 SSDs.

MacPro5,1 NVRAM volume is a design from 2008ish that is completely inadequate/insufficient for modern macOS usage, if you are using OpenCore and BigSur/Monterey, read about the issues with KernelPanics and Monterey 12.3 update on @cdf OpenCore thread. You have to proactively workaround the MacPro5,1 NVRAM problems.

However, I can only say that I was lucky that nothing happened, but for tracking and maintenance purposes, it seemed like something I should do. But I was worried about side effects, yes, in fact I was always worried about not being able to boot up after deep erasing NVRAM. I've had this happen on some computers a long, long time ago, and I've probably become a bit superstitious and won't do this unless I have to.

Deep NVRAM reset will only brick your MacPro5,1 if you SPI flash memory is on it's last legs, but a SPI flash dying will fail at the next software update, so…

So I'm wondering, when you encourage the "clear SPI Flash" procedure, do you mean deep clean NVRAM or press "Flash System ROM" in ROMTool?

Only if you have a extremely good BootROM image, don't make sense flashing a very dirty one. The majority of people prefer to ask for a reconstruction service since I'll upgrade all components inside the BootROM image. Apple efiflasher only upgrades the EFI and lot's of other BootROM components are kept exactly like the factory flashed it.

Also, does the SPI Flash erase process take up a cycle of the SPI Flash?

Correct.

I used ROMTool to dump System ROM yesterday, and opened it with UEFITool, it shows: Full size: 9F75h (40821). I just woke up the computer and looked at it again and it showed: Full size: 9CD3h (40147).

Modern macOS releases constantly update the NVRAM, there are so much things going on with the NVRAM that is difficult to explain. iCloud is one of the major culprits. You add a network on your iPhone, some minutes later the NVRAM is updated with the credentials of the network you added - don't make sense, but it's real. This goes on for all sort of motives.

This is the current state after waking up the computer (cMP is 2010 Mac Pro 5,1, dual X5690) :

View attachment 1981259

Very reasonable main VSS store space for a dual CPU Mac Pro, but with a never booted/reconstructed BootROM image you get 65448 bytes available whenever you flash it again.

 

[ddhhddhh2]

Deep erase (powering your Mac Pro and continuously pressing CMD-Option-P-R until you hear the fifth chime) = forcing garbage collection, a process that sometimes take 11 re-boots to fully conclude.



Yes, but flashing a never booted/reconstructed BootROM image or if you don't have it, the best ever image you dumped.
If you want to clean-up, upgrade to the most recent BootROM image components and have it reconstructed, see the PM I'm gonna send you.



MacPro5,1 NVRAM volume is a design from 2008ish that is completely inadequate/insufficient for modern macOS usage, if you are using OpenCore and BigSur/Monterey, read about the issues with KernelPanics and Monterey 12.3 update on @cdf OpenCore thread. You have to proactively workaround the MacPro5,1 NVRAM problems.



Deep NVRAM reset will only brick your MacPro5,1 if you SPI flash memory is on it's last legs, but a SPI flash dying will fail at the next software update, so…



Only if you have a extremely good BootROM image, don't make sense flashing a very dirty one. The majority of people prefer to ask for a reconstruction service since I'll upgrade all components inside the BootROM image. Apple efiflasher only upgrades the EFI and lot's of other BootROM components are kept exactly like the factory flashed it.



Correct.



Modern macOS releases constantly update the NVRAM, there are so much things going on with the NVRAM that is difficult to explain. iCloud is one of the major culprits. You add a network on your iPhone, some minutes later the NVRAM is updated with the credentials of the network you added - don't make sense, but it's real. This goes on for all sort of motives.



Very reasonable main VSS store space for a dual CPU Mac Pro, but with a never booted/reconstructed BootROM image you get 65448 bytes available whenever you flash it again.

No problem, I will respond to your PM, it is good to have you in the community.

 

[Matty_TypeR]

I have just had 4 Mac pro boot rom's reconstructed by tsialex and they all work fantastically well. Also i have them all backed up for any future needs. Changed all the internal BR2032 batteries as 2 were under 3v one only 2.4v another problem to boot rom's but often forgotten about, they dont last for ever.

his service is 2nd to none and you get full dialog of whats being done and anything he has found. Plus they are fully upto date with latest Mac pro 5.1 releases.

If you want perfection, he's the man.

 

[Davehillbo]

Thanks for all the info so far , very helpful. I do have a question relating to windows 10 Uefi , is there a way to disable secure boot on it to protect the nvram?

 

[Dayo]

The certificate usage/storage on UEFI Windows is different to Secure Boot in the strict sense of the term, and this usage/storage cannot be disabled at this time.

What can be done as a workaround is to use tools such as OpenCore or RefindPlus to block the storage attempt. They do the blocking very well, but the chances of failure, if minimal, still exists.

I have not looked at the OpenCore code doing this for a while, but I had to amend RefindPlus not long ago to cover some certificate writes which it was not catching before (some Windows installers/updaters). There was also some crazy ISO/DVD stuff (Can't recollect now) that @Macschrauber wanted to use that was writing certs and not being caught, which I also fixed.

I presume there could still be some instances out there. I assume that the OpenCore process is more robust (especially if LauncherOption etc is used) but I haven't looked at the code for a long time as said.

 

[Macschrauber]

@Dayo: That was a virtual DVD drive, a usb hard disk what loads .iso images and emulates a USB dvd drive ;-)

 

[Davehillbo]

In windows 10, my SATA controllers appear to be running in IDE mode, I have used the patcher to enable AHCI but it takes a while to boot up and 2 of my HDDs vanish and a controller is still stuck in IDE mode, has anyone gotten around this?

Ta again.