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marmiteturkey

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 27, 2005
957
1,081
London
https://notability.medium.com/ if you want essential features like iCloud sync, it’ll cost you £12/yr. legacy purchasers get first year free.

Lousy practice - subscriptions are one thing but removing features from your founding customers, positioning it as ‘exciting news!’ And effectively upping your prices by several hundred percent is rotten customer service.

I’m out - Goodnotes and Craft from hereon.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
Gingerlabs has managed to release 10 solid releases in a row, without asking extra money from its users.
That is, not counting their recent shop (which I think is a different concept - that I actually like).

So perhaps, given their track record, they may be able to deliver value for the subscription fee (and if so, it would make them the very first developer that I know of who would actually put in the work that they all promise when going subscription).

With that said, I could go on using Notability for another year and then evaluate.
On the other hand, I could continue my personal queest to go with Apple native apps only. After all, I very much like where Apple Notes is going as of late. Perhaps I have no real need for a third party anymore.
 
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TiggrToo

macrumors 601
Aug 24, 2017
4,205
8,838
This is worse than Fantastical when they went subscription only.

Us grandfathered users get one year before LOOSING services we’d paid for. Fantastical at least prodvided previous features ‘free’ for grandfathered users (albeit rather badly).

Yeah, not happy with Gingerbread. They need to have done better to convince me to stick with them past a year. Hopefully between now and then they produce some knockout features, but I kinda don’t think they will.
 

Traverse

macrumors 604
Mar 11, 2013
7,711
4,491
Here
I’ve used Notability for nearly 7 years for everything from personal notes to creating solutions as a TA, all from that $2.99 sale purchase.

I will happily pay a reasonable price to continue using a tool I rely on. That gives me some confidence that they’ll stay around. For me, I don’t mind subscriptions for either a media application or a frequently used productivity app.

I do mind EVERYTHING going subscription - especially those tools you use maybe 3 or 4 times a year.
 

marmiteturkey

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 27, 2005
957
1,081
London
I'm not anti subscription, and I do pay subs for quite a few apps. The errors I think authors keep making are multiple, and mainly around the what was vs. what is ratio:
- their annual subscription cost is several times the original purchase cost - e.g. an app that once cost £5 now costs more than twice that each year. Even if you factor in multi-platform, their prices are going UP for existing users
- they don't grandfather existing users who bought a product on the assumption that it would continue to work as-is. Fantastical did an okay job here - Ginger labs have removed core functionality (after 12 months, but even so). 12 months of license doesn't cut it
- this is presented as a 'fantastic new deal for users' - please don't treat me like an idiot, I can see that this is going to cost me more, and there are no benefits.

Most of the features Ginger have added in the last few years have been pointless and gimmicky (for me; YMMV); I don't need bullet journal templates, stickers or all that stuff. The core product has remained largely unchanged.

Again - I get that devs need to earn a living, and deserve to; and that this far into the App Store lifecycle, new users are too few to survive on. But the transition can be managed better, the cost ratios are often wrong, and the comms just suck.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,872
4,848
I'm not anti subscription, and I do pay subs for quite a few apps. The errors I think authors keep making are multiple, and mainly around the what was vs. what is ratio:
- their annual subscription cost is several times the original purchase cost - e.g. an app that once cost £5 now costs more than twice that each year. Even if you factor in multi-platform, their prices are going UP for existing users

I don't mind paying if I feel tehre is value, but your point:

- they don't grandfather existing users who bought a product on the assumption that it would continue to work as-is. Fantastical did an okay job here - Ginger labs have removed core functionality (after 12 months, but even so). 12 months of license doesn't cut it

is spot on. They could release the new version as subscription only and retire teh old one so only users who own it already have access.

- this is presented as a 'fantastic new deal for users' - please don't treat me like an idiot, I can see that this is going to cost me more, and there are no benefits.

Yea. At least be honest why you are doing it.

Again - I get that devs need to earn a living, and deserve to; and that this far into the App Store lifecycle, new users are too few to survive on. But the transition can be managed better, the cost ratios are often wrong, and the comms just suck.

The market is maturing and one problem devs have is people have gotten used to apps being under a couple of dollars, pounds, euros, etc. Hard to survive on that without lots of new users.

I wonder what will happen if people complain to Apple about them yanking a product you paid for and asking for a refund? it's one thing to stop supporting a product, another to yank features you paid for and then demand a subscription.
 

JoshTheLegend

macrumors newbie
Oct 13, 2021
6
2
I bought an apartment two years ago and now the former owner comes back at me and says I need to start paying him on a monthly basis. Some would say this is not a good metaphor but I don't know what mind-blowing features a notes taking app can possibly offer that will justify such a transition. If not, I do think these developers should think about releasing more apps instead of sucking blood from one app and one app only. It's just an app not a gold mine.
 
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slowpoke

macrumors regular
Oct 13, 2007
131
81
Bellona
People on Reddit have pointed out that only giving existing users a "complimentary" year-long subscription is against 3.1.2(a) in the app store guidelines:

If you are changing your existing app to a subscription-based business model, you should not take away the primary functionality existing users have already paid for. For example, let customers who have already purchased a “full game unlock” continue to access the full game after you introduce a subscription model for new customers.
They're obligated to walk this back and grandfather in existing paid users. And even if apple lets this slide, it's still against EU consumer law.
 

JoshTheLegend

macrumors newbie
Oct 13, 2021
6
2
People on Reddit have pointed out that only giving existing users a "complimentary" year-long subscription is against 3.1.2(a) in the app store guidelines:


They're obligated to walk this back and grandfather in existing paid users. And even if apple lets this slide, it's still against EU consumer law.
Unfortunately, I talked to Apple support a few hours ago. They told me they noticed a few complaints about this and they recommended me to contact the developers myself. I don't know if things have changed after more complaints go to Apple.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,872
4,848
I dislike subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I can see why the developers need to have a source of income to keep up development. I personally prefer the system used in apps like Agenda where you only (voluntarily) pay for new features as they are released and get to keep any feature you've previously bought indefinitely.

That's what most peopel are saying Ginger Labs should do. My guess is they're worried people will continue to use the paid for app and not subscribe so they've pulled features to drive subscriptions.

If you want to move to a subscription model, you launch a new version and leave the old one alone. You don't remove stuff people have paid for and demand more cash.

A number of apps have done that and it's a reasonable approach.

If they want to transition to a subscription model, they should rename this version “Notability Classic” and freeze the feature set, while providing security updates and bug fixes. Going forward they can sell the new subscription based Notability. Grandfathering is the right thing to do.

I would go so far as to say they should could simply leave it as is and not support it. You want bug fixes, etc., then buy the subscription.

Yep. Sounds like a crap job to be a developer. Apple raises prices and people line up and say take my money. lol. Let a dev do this and it’s outrageous.

It's not about raising prices but pulling paid for features from a product.

People are free loading with paid apps because they are not viable in the long run. 15$ is completely reasonable. If you don’t have $15 use Notes.

This notion that we should be able to buy an app in the App Store once and then keep using it -- with updates! -- forever is just totally crazy.

I don't expect updates forever but do expect to have access to the features I paid for until a new OS renders the app unable to run.

The whiny entitlement is quite strong with a lot of folks -- the same ones who line up to give Apple hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year to purchase (rent, if you're on the iPhone upgrade program) shiny new devices to replace last year's shiny new devices. What kind of logic is that?

The same logic that said Apple was wrong when they took steps to throttle performance to save battery life.

The problem, as it always is, is Apple's fault with its idiotic App Store rules. Along with the 30% racket fee, this is why sideloading apps absolutely has to become an option.

Apple's fee is actually quite low when you look at your argument about the old way:

For all the young'uns here who think subscriptions are the only possible solution, let me tell you how software sales used to work, before you were born. And I can assure you, companies survived just fine, as will be made clear in a moment.

Under the old way companies were lucky to get 30% of the sales price, if they could get distribution and had to upfront all the costs of duplication, printing, packaging before the first sale and their 30% cut.

Company X releases Product Y version 1.0. Developers keep working like crazy in the product, so that next year they can offer you version 2.0 with all these new features. It is entirely up to you whether you should buy it or not. If you don't you still have version 1.0 to work with, and you're not due anything else to Company X just to keep version 1.0, that you already paid for, working. So Company X's continued survival depends on them adding features that customers actually want and are willing to pay for. The free market in its finest incarnation.

The key is what I noted above in your post: what you paid for keeps working. I have no issue with a company releasing V2 and charging for it as long as they don't disable V1 if I paid for it.

In comes Apple with the App Store and imposes a rule no one called for, and that benefits absolutely no one: you can't charge for an upgrade. You have to release a completely new app, and you can't offer upgrade pricing to your old customers.

Actually, you can. Some companies released a new app version as a separate purchase and charge for it; some discount the price for a while to give current purchasers a upgrade discount. They can also add features as in app purchases.

It should come as no surprise that I much prefer the old system where the developer has to earn a new sale by adding features. Unfortunately, the idiotic App Store rules did away with that option.

As I pointed out, the App Store rules still allow the old system. What really killed the model is how apps were priced. Instead of charging a sustainable price, developers went for the bottom and users came to believe apps were worth at best a few dollars, pounds or Euros. Apps became a volume business in a market where volume sales year over year are not sustainable; since many phone sales were upgrades and users simply moved apps to a new phone, and not an ever growing market size.

Since you brought up the old system, apps were often at least 10 - 20 dollars, pounds, marks, escudos, francs, etc.; which would probably be 15 - 30 inflation adjusted today.

I like SetApp, even though it is subscription and I actually bought a number of apps on it before I subscribed, for the price of a couple of my must have apps I get a bunch of additional apps that are useful.

Unfortunately, I talked to Apple support a few hours ago. They told me they noticed a few complaints about this and they recommended me to contact the developers myself. I don't know if things have changed after more complaints go to Apple.

It will be interesting to see Apple's response. If they let some AppStore guidelines be violated it may prove harder to enforce them later.
 

addamas

macrumors 65816
Apr 20, 2016
1,314
1,341
If they don’t honor old users I’ll for sure say goodbye to them. I paid for full version, scraping it from features I have already paid is very bad idea in my eyes.
Trello Did the same few months ago - you had a possibility to pay Trello Gold which was quite good for a single person / very small teams, now you have to pay 40% more for the same features in the first year and later on like 80% more.
 

marmiteturkey

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Aug 27, 2005
957
1,081
London
Not everything needs to be an ‘ecosystem’. Some apps just need to be really good, simple and purposeful. I think this may prove to be a misstep driven by a fundamental misconception over what their app is and what people actually want from it; it’s similar to the one Evernote has made and from which it has been gently dying for years.

I would have paid £5 to update to a v2 app without hesitation. I won’t pay twice that every year for feature parity and an ‘ecosystem’ of other people’s journaling templates and stickers.
 
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Not-A-Fan

macrumors member
Nov 2, 2015
54
110
Europe
This is just a reminder that when when software isn't free (as in liberty, not as in gratis), you're not buying the software, you're renting it.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,872
4,848

Key parts:

“It’s not really driven by revenue or profits, so much as how we want to expand and increase our reach, and build a broader ecosystem,” Gilboy says.

When a compnat says it's not about profit, it's about profit, to wit:

“We want to make sure that people can’t just use Notability and make it all the way through med school for free,” Gilboy says. “That would leave us without a business.”

I thought it wasn't "driven by revenue or profits"

How about keeping all the functionality users already paid for and adding subscription IAPs? That way those who want the new features can subscribe and the rest get what they paid for.
 

samwa3

macrumors regular
Dec 5, 2018
170
133
This is just a reminder that when when software isn't free (as in liberty, not as in gratis), you're not buying the software, you're renting it.
Which is why I think subscriptions are a good thing for software that has to be maintained and isn't just a one-off gimmick. At least then it's clear to the customer that they're just renting the software and be a bit more wary about what kind of software they're using, especially they might consider FOSS instead.

So please, app developers, just make your licenses subscription-based in the first place. Don't sell these one-off licenses that people pay a lot of money for just to pull a bait and switch afterwards.
 
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max2

macrumors 603
May 31, 2015
6,421
2,044
Subscriptions are out of control.

Though at the same time I understand a developer needs to make money.

Still why not make the program/app a subscription when starting? Why change out of no where ?



If it actually does not alienate some previous users and even gains users I will be surprised. Though sometimes things like this can backfire.
 

Davidalan

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2012
581
293
Notability sent this email out around 8:30 pm EST

2e2db4a9-1e02-4fb3-76d4-c4d708309179.png


Updates to our 11.0 Subscription.​


Yesterday, we made a big announcement regarding our transition to a free app with an optional subscription. We heard your disappointment, and are here now to correct our course.

Today, we are making some changes (coming soon in Notability version 11.0.2). Everyone who purchased Notability prior to our switch to subscription on November 1st, 2021 will have lifetime access to all existing features and any content previously purchased in the app.

This includes the core Notability experience that users know and love, including unlimited editing, iCloud sync, and any features or content that was previously purchased through the Notability Shop. Future features we develop may also be included, depending on their complexity and cost to maintain.

We are a small company, so we designed the original one-year access plan as a cautionary measure since we were not certain if we could support lifetime access. We were wrong to put our current users in that position. And for that, we sincerely apologize.

Without you, we would not have reached this point. We deeply value each and every one of you. Your feedback powers Notability and has helped shape the app into what it is today. Thank you.

Sincerely,
The Notability team ?
 
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jlc1978

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Aug 14, 2009
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I can respect their decision. Listening to users and reversing a bad decision is a sign of good leadership.
 
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addamas

macrumors 65816
Apr 20, 2016
1,314
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I have lost part of respect to them, already have a warning sign behind my head that in first possible situation they will try to force everyone to pay subscription for service. This might be “a new super-duper version” of Notability. Some companies did this in the past by creating different app. I am not very into details of App Store rules but this was annoying. I have some PDF app in mind.
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,872
4,848
I have lost part of respect to them, already have a warning sign behind my head that in first possible situation they will try to force everyone to pay subscription for service. This might be “a new super-duper version” of Notability. Some companies did this in the past by creating different app. I am not very into details of App Store rules but this was annoying.

In teh end, they have to find a way to make money to continue development, and an app that nets them $7.00 isn't going to get enough new users to sustain a company. Most people won't pay $20 - 30 for an iPhone app. they could offer a subscription version and a permanent license for version X and I bet people would scream if the permanent version was $20 - 30 vs say a $10 subscription.

Developers shot themselves in the foot when they trained users to only pay a few dollars for an app. Now it's hard to get users to pay more.

Of course, developers would eventually offer version X+1, stop support for Version X and charge again to keep a sustainable revenue stream.

I have some PDF app in mind.

Yea. I also remember good apps that went away because developers couldn't stay in business.
 

addamas

macrumors 65816
Apr 20, 2016
1,314
1,341
I and probably more people don’t mind to pay for new features but forcing people to pay for what they already bought is the main problem of this story. I work in IT and I know how much time it requires to produce the product, test it (my part), support and improve.

When I was a child we could buy a product and use it how long we would like. Printer, Walkman, Office, Windows, Games - as long as we could start it we could use it with all the features we have paid. I wanted new features - I bought new product / upgrade. Even upgrading MacOS was a paid service.

I wanted old version? Then I have not updated - lived with all problems this might cause (new bugs I could not get fixed, security holes) and no one forced me to upgrade. Except if a software used severs to share data which is obvious cost, so disabling old software from using it overtime was logical.

You buy a car and don’t pay to use it, right? (Taxes doesn’t matter)
You buy a book / ebook and you don‘t pay to read it in the same form.

So why someone could ask you to pay for a book which is yours already. If someone offer me a new version of it or ebook which someone spend time to finish - I don’t mind to pay again a part more / full value.
 

ackmondual

macrumors 68020
Dec 23, 2014
2,446
1,151
U.S.A., Earth
I bought an apartment two years ago and now the former owner comes back at me and says I need to start paying him on a monthly basis. Some would say this is not a good metaphor but I don't know what mind-blowing features a notes taking app can possibly offer that will justify such a transition. If not, I do think these developers should think about releasing more apps instead of sucking blood from one app and one app only. It's just an app not a gold mine.
"Make more apps" doesn't really work either. On the video games side, developers just "churn and burn". They make a game quickly, release it, and then move on to the next on ASAP. Their previous games will get minimal if any support (I mean, if the ROI is good, then they'll update to support Apple's next iOS release. If not, just let it die). Their previous games will probably be half-assed as well

In teh end, they have to find a way to make money to continue development, and an app that nets them $7.00 isn't going to get enough new users to sustain a company. Most people won't pay $20 - 30 for an iPhone app. they could offer a subscription version and a permanent license for version X and I bet people would scream if the permanent version was $20 - 30 vs say a $10 subscription.

Developers shot themselves in the foot when they trained users to only pay a few dollars for an app. Now it's hard to get users to pay more.

Of course, developers would eventually offer version X+1, stop support for Version X and charge again to keep a sustainable revenue stream.



Yea. I also remember good apps that went away because developers couldn't stay in business.
Problem was EVERYBODY was doing it. You selling your app at premium prices of $10 to $50 won't be a meaningful stand if your competition is already at a "race to the bottom" situation. You'll just fade away.

IIRC, Apple wouldn't let them charge for new versions. I'm guessing this hasn't changed? If so, I figured making a new variation of their app ("great app" vs. "great app-x") was a way to charge for a new version
 

jlc1978

macrumors 603
Aug 14, 2009
5,872
4,848
Problem was EVERYBODY was doing it. You selling your app at premium prices of $10 to $50 won't be a meaningful stand if your competition is already at a "race to the bottom" situation. You'll just fade away.

Exactly. The pricing model simply doesn't work for long term viability so developers need to find other ways to make enough to survive. Another problem is as phones became more powerful, end users expect higher quality graphics, features that take advantage of new capabilities and more powerful processors, etc.; all of which takes more time and raises development costs.

One non-subscription solution is to make new features IAPs.

IIRC, Apple wouldn't let them charge for new versions. I'm guessing this hasn't changed? If so, I figured making a new variation of their app ("great app" vs. "great app-x") was a way to charge for a new version

I've seen apps do just that and drop support for older versions.
 
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