Other OpenEmu Lite - "Just works" emulator for 2D console games on OS X 10.7 – 10.9

[Wowfunhappy]

For as long as I've been a Mac user, there's one class of app I've never been able to find—a set of really good emulators for classic 2D game consoles like the NES and SNES.

Most emulators consider Mac compatibility an afterthought, and it shows. The Mac version of RetroArch uses a confusing console-centric interface, does not support opening games from Finder, and has longstanding issues with controller support that make local multiplayer impractical. The Mac emulator ports on Richard Bannister's website require a separate, paid app for basic features like using controllers and entering fullscreen, and while I don't mind paying for good software, using a separate app is ugly. The 10.9-compatible versions of SNES9x and BSNES/Higan also have issues with controller support on Mac, and seem to crash frequently. I wanted something that felt built for OS X.

There is one emulator project designed from the ground up for OS X, called OpenEmu. It's an awesome app, but it wasn't what I wanted. For starters, OpenEmu's automatic core downloading system is broken on old versions of OS X, which made the app tricky to set up in the first place. More importantly, however, OpenEmu is designed to not just play games but to manage a game library, and Finder already does that for me. If OpenEmu was modeled after iTunes, I wanted something akin to QuickTime.

So last summer, I took OpenEmu's source code and ripped out all of the library functionality, creating a document-based app in accordance with Apple's design guidelines. I named the result "OpenEmu Lite", and it has been quietly available for download on my personal website since early fall.

Why am I posting about it now? Basically, I feel the project has progressed to the point where it will be useful to people without my personal idiosyncrasies. I've recompiled OpenEmu's "cores" to be based on newer versions of their underlying emulators, such that OpenEmu Lite contains the most up-to-date versions of Nestopia, SNES9x, and mGBA you can get on OS X 10.9 and below sans RetroArch. I also enabled dynamic rate control in SNES9x and Genesis Plus GX, for perfect frame pacing on 60hz displays without any audio crackling.

OpenEmu Lite Features

• Supports NES, SNES, Genesis, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advanced, and Nintendo DS games.
• "Just Works"—open a game from Finder and start playing in seconds!
• Easily assign buttons from any generic HID-compliant game controller.
• Automatic save states—when you re-open a game you've played previously, you'll pick up exactly where you left off.
  • Manual save states will never be supported because they cheapen the experience. If a game is too hard—as many are—add cheat codes to OpenEmu.app/Contents/Resources/cheats-database.xml. (You can also manually back up and restore the automatically-created states in OpenEmu's Application Support folder, if you must.)
• Designed for OS X 10.7 – 10.9. Any support for newer operating systems is coincidental and untested.

Download​

Some things I could use help with, if anyone is willing:

• I'd like to make games appear in Finder with cartridge icons. These could be generic or console-specific, but they should look like game cartridges, and they should fit the look of pre-Yosemite OS X and/or OpenEmu. Please get in touch if you have some drawing skills and think this would be a fun project.
• I would like to try adding 64-bit Snow Leopard support! Unfortunately, OpenEmu does not work in Virtual Machines due to its reliance on graphics acceleration, and I don't have anything real to test with. If you are a Snow Leopard user who is willing to participate in a great deal of annoying trial-and-error testing over PMs, please get in touch.
  • Support for PowerPC, Tiger, Leopard, and 32-bit Snow Leopard isn't feasible due to OpenEmu's reliance on Automatic Reference Counting.

Other than that, please let me know if you run into any crashes or other bugs. I only have access to a limited library of hardware and games to test with, but I'd like to make this app absolutely stable!

P.S. If you're looking for legal games to play, I highly recommend Super Bat Puncher (free), Spacegulls (free), Witch n' Wiz ($10), Micro Mages ($10), and Sam's Journey (free demo, full version $18).

 

[TheShortTimer]

Most emulators consider Mac compatibility an afterthought, and it shows.

Yes! I've despaired at the sheer shoddiness, the lack of any basic effort and attention with many Mac versions of emulators. I can think of one in particular that doesn't even include any documentation whatsoever, I couldn't even find a release history and I was forced to employ trial and error in order to locate a version that's even compatible with my macOS release as they're not labelled with this information.

Even after locating a working version, you had to guess your way to success by pressing every key till you found the right ones. Obviously I soon tired of this nonsense and asked myself why would I endure this in order to run something that's basically been provided with contempt towards the user and their machine? No matter if it's free.

The Mac emulator ports on Richard Bannister's website require a separate, paid app for basic features like controller and fullscreen support, and while I don't mind paying for good software, using a separate app is ugly.

I wasn't impressed one bit by that approach. Forcing you to pay for fullscreen support? He might as well just offer the emulator as trialware or a commercial program instead.

I wanted something that felt built for OS X.

Thanks. I for one salute you for taking on this project: I actually own most of the machines that you've listed but it's bound to be a godsend for those who do not and I look forward to seeing its progress.

 

[Heindijs]

Great work on this. I used to use OpenEmu when it still natively supported Lion and I always really liked its library interface. Is there any way to re-enable it in your version?

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Great work on this. I used to use OpenEmu when it still natively supported Lion and I always really liked its library interface. Is there any way to re-enable it in your version?

No, I’ve ripped out far too much code. It's based on the Lion-compatible OpenEmu 1.0.4 anyway, so you could just use that and download the old cores manually from OpenEmu's Github (since their downloader is broken). You just won't be able to use my newer cores. (Actually, I guess you could try using my cores, but I have no idea what will happen and can't help you.)

I can think of one in particular that doesn't even include any documentation whatsoever, I couldn't even find a release history and I was forced to employ trial and error in order to locate a version that's even compatible with my macOS release as they're not labelled with this information.

What, you mean like lots and lots of Mac apps? (I have to play the high-low game all the time, no one includes compatibility information anymore.)

Thanks. I for one salute you for taking on this project: I actually own most of the machines that you've listed but it's bound to be a godsend for those who do not and I look forward to seeing its progress.

Thanks, just remember I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here—I wouldn't have been able to make this from scratch if OpenEmu didn't already exist.

 

[SnakeCoils]

Hello and complilments for you effort, I was really waiting for an emulator able to run on OSX Lion but... on my MacMini Middle 2007 (core 2 Duo 2.0 GHz, 2 Gb RAM, OSX 10.7.5) it does not work, at least with SNES Rom dumps I have (*.smc extension).
Every time I tried to open a ROM it crashes (Application unexpectedly quit), I suspect the minimum system requirements are not met, this particular Mac has the Intel GMA950 with 64 Mb of shared ram only, is there something I can try to make it work?

EDIT: I have also tried with (verified) Genesis ROMs (*.md extension), same result, the crash seems not related to the emu cores.

 

[Amethyst1]

it does not work, at least with SNES Rom dumps I have (*.smc extension).
Every time I tried to open a ROM it crashes (Application unexpectedly quit),

I have the same issue with an SNES ROM on a 2007 MacBook Pro (also a Core 2 Duo machine). A GBC ROM — I tried Prince of Persia — can be loaded.

 

[SnakeCoils]

I really hope the issue could be solved, for now on my system I can use,
for SNES emulation: BSNES 0.6.8 (Performance) or Snes9X 1.60
for Genesis: Genesis Plus 1.3.2
for GameBoy/GBC: Kigb 2.0.4

Those are the most recent versions able to run on OSX Lion and GMA950 graphics, too bad Mr.Bannister didn't release his Emulator Enhancer free for vintage Macs, I really love the fullscreen experience.

EDIT: I have tried on OpenEmuLite the Super Mario Bros Deluxe dump (1.1) for GBC but it crashes exactly like SNES and Genesis ROMs, it works fine in Kigb 2.0.4

 

[Amethyst1]

I really love the fullscreen experience.

Not running games/emulators in fullscreen ruins the experience IMO.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

@SnakeCoils Can you please send over a crash log?

I have the same issue with an SNES ROM on a 2007 MacBook Pro (also a Core 2 Duo machine). A GBC ROM — I tried Prince of Persia — can be loaded.

Just confirming this is with the latest version, and not the one you were testing for me a couple of weeks ago? I ask because I completely switched the SNES core from Higan to SNES9x.

 

[SnakeCoils]

@SnakeCoils Can you please send over a crash log?

Sure! Here it is, attached to the post.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Sure! Here it is, attached to the post.

Thanks, I may PM you with some builds to try in the next few days so we don't clog up the thread. Doesn't look like a GPU issue at all, I think it may be timing related. OpenEmu's code is multithreaded to an annoying degree.

 

[Amethyst1]

Just confirming this is with the latest version, and not the one you were testing for me a couple of weeks ago? I ask because I completely switched the snes core from Higan to SNES9x.

Gotcha. I was referring to the earlier version. Sorry... Going to test the new one ASAP!

 

[SnakeCoils]

Thanks, I may PM you with some builds to try in the next few days so we don't clog up the thread. Doesn't look like a GPU issue at all, I think it may be timing related. OpenEmu's code is multithreaded to an annoying degree.

Yes, I will be happy to do some beta-testing, feel free to sent me the binaries you need to try

 

[Wowfunhappy]

The download has been updated to fix a variety of issues on 10.7. Thanks to @SnakeCoils for testing!

(Still waiting for a helper for Snow Leopard! You may end up doing a lot of testing for me though!)

 

[MrCheeto]

Hm, no volunteers... I'll help with SL and Leopard if you're still making efforts here. I was happy to just use the emulators I had from that era but if you're putting this much work into something that so many people can enjoy, I have to offer my time.

I like OpenEMU. It's not perfect, it requires some self-inflicted guard-rails, but for the particular games I want to play it has performed satisfactorily. Less clutter sounds like my Leopard philosophy.

I have multiple boot drives and GPU's on my Mac Pro, so I can jump into 10.5 or 10.6 any time!

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I'll help with SL and Leopard if you're still making efforts here. I was happy to just use the emulators I had from that era but if you're putting this much work into something that so many people can enjoy, I have to offer my time.

Thank you! Unfortunately, I literally just started a new job (like, today) so I'm not sure when I'll have a moment to focus on this, but I may PM you at some point!

 

[MrCheeto]

Haha, this is exactly how timing works for me usually. For basically any projects you do continue, I'll be your Intel Leopard/Snow Leopard guinea pig. I also have a G4 mini running OS 9, Tiger and Leopard at your service.

 

[xxVOXxx]

For as long as I've been a Mac user, there's one class of app I've never been able to find—a set of really good emulators for classic 2D game consoles like the NES and SNES.

Most emulators consider Mac compatibility an afterthought, and it shows. The Mac version of RetroArch uses a confusing console-centric interface, does not support opening games from Finder, and has longstanding issues with controller support that make local multiplayer impractical. The Mac emulator ports on Richard Bannister's website require a separate, paid app for basic features like using controllers and entering fullscreen, and while I don't mind paying for good software, using a separate app is ugly. The 10.9-compatible versions of SNES9x and BSNES/Higan also have issues with controller support on Mac, and seem to crash frequently. I wanted something that felt built for OS X.

There is one emulator project designed from the ground up for OS X, called OpenEmu. It's an awesome app, but it wasn't what I wanted. For starters, OpenEmu's automatic core downloading system is broken on old versions of OS X, which made the app tricky to set up in the first place. More importantly, however, OpenEmu is designed to not just play games but to manage a game library, and Finder already does that for me. If OpenEmu was modeled after iTunes, I wanted something akin to QuickTime.

So last summer, I took OpenEmu's source code and ripped out all of the library functionality, creating a document-based app in accordance with Apple's design guidelines. I named the result "OpenEmu Lite", and it has been quietly available for download on my personal website since early fall.

Why am I posting about it now? Basically, I feel the project has progressed to the point where it will be useful to people without my personal idiosyncrasies. I've recompiled OpenEmu's "cores" to be based on newer versions of their underlying emulators, such that OpenEmu Lite contains the most up-to-date versions of Nestopia, SNES9x, and mGBA you can get on OS X 10.9 and below sans RetroArch. I also enabled dynamic rate control in SNES9x and Genesis Plus GX, for perfect frame pacing on 60hz displays without any audio crackling.

OpenEmu Lite Features

• Supports NES, SNES, Genesis, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, Gameboy Advanced, and Nintendo DS games.
• "Just Works"—open a game from Finder and start playing in seconds!
• Easily assign buttons from any generic HID-compliant game controller.
• Automatic save states—when you re-open a game you've played previously, you'll pick up exactly where you left off.
  • Manual save states will never be supported because they cheapen the experience. If a game is too hard—as many are—add cheat codes to OpenEmu.app/Contents/Resources/cheats-database.xml. (You can also manually back up and restore the automatically-created states in OpenEmu's Application Support folder, if you must.)
• Designed for OS X 10.7 – 10.9. Any support for newer operating systems is coincidental and untested.

Download​

Some things I could use help with, if anyone is willing:

• I'd like to make games appear in Finder with cartridge icons. These could be generic or console-specific, but they should look like game cartridges, and they should fit the look of pre-Yosemite OS X and/or OpenEmu. Please get in touch if you have some drawing skills and think this would be a fun project.
• I would like to try adding 64-bit Snow Leopard support! Unfortunately, OpenEmu does not work in Virtual Machines due to its reliance on graphics acceleration, and I don't have anything real to test with. If you are a Snow Leopard user who is willing to participate in a great deal of annoying trial-and-error testing over PMs, please get in touch.
  • Support for PowerPC, Tiger, Leopard, and 32-bit Snow Leopard isn't feasible due to OpenEmu's reliance on Automatic Reference Counting.

Other than that, please let me know if you run into any crashes or other bugs. I only have access to a limited library of hardware and games to test with, but I'd like to make this app absolutely stable!

P.S. If you're looking for legal games to play, I highly recommend Bat Puncher, Spacegulls, Witch n' Wiz (paid), and Micro Mages (paid).

Thank you for all of your hard work on this and the other legacy Mac utilities on your site.

I can't seem to get OpenEmu Lite to run on my Mac Pro 2012 on OSX 10.8.5 (it keeps crashing upon loading any NES or Genesis ROMs). Fortunately, both the standard 1.0.4 and 1.0.4 Experiemental versions of OpenEmu are running just fine. You may have solved a big problem for me however with your custom cores and I wanted to leave this comment here for others to find.

For OpenEmu 1.0.4, the latest version of SNES9x that will work without crashing is v1.53.3. This version works very well except some games like Mortal Kombat will have a terrible audio stutter/echo which makes the game basically unplayable with sound on. As an experiment I extracted the cores from your OpenEmu Lite version which contains your SNES9x 1.56.2 build (which normally would NOT work in 1.0.4). Replacing my 1.53.3 core with your 1.56.2 core in the default directory:

~/Library/Application Support/OpenEmu/Cores/

To my surprise it did not crash or present any problems so far in fact it runs very smooth, plus completely eliminated the sound issue caused by the older core!


A few questions:
-Is there a guide on how to build newer cores like you did to work with older OpenEmu 1.0.4 if I want to try myself?

-I attempted using your newer version of Gambatte core v0.5.0.r689 to see if it enabled the Super Game Boy colors and/or border and it did not (neither did v0.5.0.2 which is last working for 1.0.4 normally), is there a version that does this to your knowledge?

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I can't seem to get OpenEmu Lite to run on my Mac Pro 2012 on OSX 10.8.5 (it keeps crashing upon loading any NES or Genesis ROMs)

You may not care since you seem to be happy with mainline OpenEmu, but I'd love to get a crash log (backtrace) and/or know if anything is printed in the console. I want to go back in and do some code cleanup on this project at some point.

or OpenEmu 1.0.4, the latest version of SNES9x that will work without crashing is v1.53.3. This version works very well except some games like Mortal Kombat will have a terrible audio stutter/echo which makes the game basically unplayable with sound on. As an experiment I extracted the cores from your OpenEmu Lite version which contains your SNES9x 1.56.2 build (which normally would NOT work in 1.0.4). Replacing my 1.53.3 core with your 1.56.2 core in the default directory:

This actually isn't because my core is newer, it's because I edited the SNES9x source code to enable Dynamic Rate Control! I actually also added it to Genesis Plus GX.

Without Dynamic Rate Control you will always get either terrible audio stutter or video stutter. I don't understand how people were ever okay playing games like that!

-Is there a guide on how to build newer cores like you did to work with older OpenEmu 1.0.4 if I want to try myself?

It has been a few years, but as best as I can recall it was just trial and error. I pulled in the source code of newer versions of each core and tried building them. If it built and ultimately worked I would try an even newer version, and if it failed I would either try a slightly older version or attempt to fix the issue manually. Also, once I selected a version, I would also sometimes look through the source and attempt to cherry pick individual features from newer versions.

-I attempted using your newer version of Gambatte core v0.5.0.r689 to see if it enabled the Super Game Boy colors and/or border and it did not (neither did v0.5.0.2 which is last working for 1.0.4 normally), is there a version that does this to your knowledge?

To my knowledge, I don't think any version of Gambatte supports that: https://github.com/libretro/gambatte-libretro/issues/137

This was a feature I wanted too, I'm pretty sure I looked into it at the time and concluded it wasn't feasible for me to add. I don't remember why I came to that conclusion, but "because Gambatte can't do that at all" seems like a strong possibility!

 

[xxVOXxx]

You may not care since you seem to be happy with mainline OpenEmu, but I'd love to get a crash log (backtrace) and/or know if anything is printed in the console. I want to go back in and do some code cleanup on this project at some point.

Sure I'll help in any way I can as I'd also like to see this working proper on Mountain Lion for everyone. I might keep one instance of OpenEmu with my library, but use Lite on the side as the default to open games straight from Finder. See attached Console log and Crash Logs from each time I tried to run a different rom. I ran one rom from each supported game system on OpenEmu Lite and all of them crashed. Since the error happened in both Virtual Machine and on my main OS, I used the logs from the 10.8.5 VM so they were less cluttered and contained less potential sensitive data.

This actually isn't because my core is newer, it's because I edited the SNES9x source code to enable Dynamic Rate Control! I actually also added it to Genesis Plus GX.

Without Dynamic Rate Control you will always get either terrible audio stutter or video stutter. I don't understand how people were ever okay playing games like that!

oh interesting! either way I'm glad your version works much better. two questions:

1.) Since it was not the upgraded core but inclusion of the Dynamic Rate Control that fixed the audio issues, is there any advantage to using your 1.56.2 SNES core VS rebuilding the last official compatible 1.53.3 core but enabling the Dynamic Rate Control on that one? Would this ensure max compaitbility with both OpenEmu 1.0.4 and OpenEmu Lite for users?

2.) You mentioned the Genesis Plus GX version you used is 1.7.4 r1019. I screenshotted the cores version with the original one I was using (1.7.4.2), then swapped in your core and screenshotted the versions again and they both say exactly the same GenesisPlus 1.7.4.2. Is there a way to make sure the core that was included with OpenEmu Lite is in fact 1.7.4 r1019? I want to A/B test the cores and see which works best for my setup.

It has been a few years, but as best as I can recall it was just trial and error. I pulled in the source code of newer versions of each core and tried building them. If it built and ultimately worked I would try an even newer version, and if it failed I would either try a slightly older version or attempt to fix the issue manually. Also, once I selected a version, I would also sometimes look through the source and attempt to cherry pick individual features from newer versions.

ok, gotcha. any resources you can point me toward for instructions to building OpenEmu cores from source code? I'm a complete noob at compiling but do have XCode installed on 10.8.5.

To my knowledge, I don't think any version of Gambatte supports that: https://github.com/libretro/gambatte-libretro/issues/137

This was a feature I wanted too, I'm pretty sure I looked into it at the time and concluded it wasn't feasible for me to add. I don't remember why I came to that conclusion, but "because Gambatte can't do that at all" seems like a strong possibility!

that's a shame, it's almost perfect from what I can tell besides the lack of SGB colors/borders. I know you can use the display option button (mappable in OpenEmu Control Prefs) to scroll through Game Boy Color pallates which is still cool, but not SGB real colors.

Gameboy side note: for SGB Enhanced games, KiGB v2.0.5 with Enhancer v2.4.0 works perfect on 10.8 (it supports 10.4-10.9 I believe) and you can choose to enable or disable GBC & SGB colors/borders.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

1.) Since it was not the upgraded core but inclusion of the Dynamic Rate Control that fixed the audio issues, is there any advantage to using your 1.56.2 SNES core VS rebuilding the last official compatible 1.53.3 core but enabling the Dynamic Rate Control on that one? Would this ensure max compaitbility with both OpenEmu 1.0.4 and OpenEmu Lite for users?

I don't think so? Use what works.

2.) You mentioned the Genesis Plus GX version you used is 1.7.4 r1019. I screenshotted the cores version with the original one I was using (1.7.4.2), then swapped in your core and screenshotted the versions again and they both say exactly the same GenesisPlus 1.7.4.2. Is there a way to make sure the core that was included with OpenEmu Lite is in fact 1.7.4 r1019? I want to A/B test the cores and see which works best for my setup.

...I honestly don't remember what the status is with versions and/or where the version number is stored and if it's accurate.

---

ok, gotcha. any resources you can point me toward for instructions to building OpenEmu cores from source code? I'm a complete noob at compiling but do have XCode installed on 10.8.5.

It's the same as building OpenEmu in general, I don't have any specific instructions but I don't remember it being that hard to build, the trickiest bit is that some stuff is stored across different git repositories.

See attached Console log and Crash Logs from each time I tried to run a different rom.

Oops! Turns out this never actually worked on 10.7/10.8, I was using an objective-c method that only works in 10.9+. Sorry about that! Please try replacing OpenEmuXPCCommunicator.framework in OpenEmu Lite.app/Contents/Frameworks with the attached version. If it works I'll update the main app for everyone.

I might keep one instance of OpenEmu with my library, but use Lite on the side as the default to open games straight from Finder.

A heads up that I'm not sure whether you can have OpenEmu and OpenEmu Lite installed on the same system, they both read from Library/Application Support/OpenEmu and I have no idea what will happen! It might be fine, I just don't know.

Furthermore, OpenEmu may not work properly in Virtual Machines due to the lack of graphics acceleration.

 

[xxVOXxx]

Oops! Turns out this never actually worked on 10.7/10.8, I was using an objective-c method that only works in 10.9+. Sorry about that! Please try replacing OpenEmuXPCCommunicator.framework in OpenEmu Lite.app/Contents/Frameworks with the attached version. If it works I'll update the main app for everyone.

Swapping in the new .framework file got it working on 10.8.5! Now we should have someone test it on 10.7 if possible. What was the difference in frameworks?

A heads up that I'm not sure whether you can have OpenEmu and OpenEmu Lite installed on the same system, they both read from Library/Application Support/OpenEmu and I have no idea what will happen! It might be fine, I just don't know.

Furthermore, OpenEmu may not work properly in Virtual Machines due to the lack of graphics acceleration.

I tried this and it kind of works. First I installed my main OpenEmu 1.0.4 Experimental and library and make sure it ran. Then I used the new fixed version of OpenEmu Lite (named originally OpenEmu.app) and renamed it to OpenEmu Lite.app. Installed to Applications directory and it seems to run just fine with all the supported ROMS. It will NOT however, let me choose it to be the default application when double clicking a ROM file (see screenshot). I wonder if you were to package the application as OpenEmu Lite.app officially and force it to use Application Support/OpenEmu Lite if it would let us run the programs separately side by side?

Tested the .framework fix in a Virtual Machcine and you were right, no such luck with OpenEmu Lite. I was however able to get KiGB and BSNES to work in the VM but they DID throw errors saying that they may not work due to insufficient hardware acceleration. KiGB worked perfectly fine, BSNES had no sound.



Also, since OE Lite doesn't contain all the systems that OE does, I did a little experiment and copied all the system plugins and cores from 1.0.4 to OE Lite. They do now all show up in the Control Preferences and the controller artwork pops up like the standard program (see screenshot), but when going going to File/Open Game any file types for systems not included with your release will not let me open them at all. Is there a way to include all the original systems from 1.0.4 to OpenEmu Lite in case users want those? Thanks again for working on this project for everyone.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Swapping in the new .framework file got it working on 10.8.5! Now we should have someone test it on 10.7 if possible. What was the difference in frameworks?

Great, I'll update the main version soon! I was stupidly using a method in AppKit that doesn't exist prior to 10.9. Thank you for the crash report and for testing the fix for me.

Is there a way to include all the original systems from 1.0.4 to OpenEmu Lite in case users want those? Thanks again for working on this project for everyone.

IIRC you just need to edit OpenEmu Lite's info.plist, I'm at work right now but there should be a pretty clearly defined structure you can change.

I don't want to do this by default because I only want to include cores I personally use and have thus tested a fair bit. (But that's just me being overly conservative, if you add the cores and plugins yourself there is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't work!)