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GladysHanna

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Aug 14, 2021
3
1
On my MacBook Pro 16” late 2019 optimized charging box is ticked in battery preferences, but it keeps charging to 100%.
Why?
Another thread talks about having meetings i the calendar makes Big Sur assume you need the battery to be fully charged for the meeting. I have lots of entries i the calendar…
 
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CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
Because this feature sucks. It has a hard time learning your charging behavior and often is unable to do so. It can take months until it kicks in and even if it does, it might stop working again. In addition, optimized charging usually limits to 80 or 90%, which still is too high if you run the machine on external power for an extended period of time.

Disable optimized charging and use AlDente, works much better. It allows you to pick a fixed charging state. For when using it on external power for a longer time. Best is something in between 50% and 75%.
 

DJ Rob

macrumors member
Oct 11, 2020
53
81
Optimized Charging is a bit mysterious in operation and CMMChris is correct, it can take some time before it actively manages the charge level.

Optm Charging.png


After several weeks continuously plugged in, I started to notice the indicator going from 'Charged' to 'Paused' and day by day, my charged level gradually fell to around 78%. I temporarily disconnected my MBP during a reorganization of my desk and it reverted back to the fully charged mode. Been plugged in for ~6 days now, and still maintaining the 100% level. Considering my last MBP (Late 2013 13") was plugged in most of its life, its battery health was still above 90% when I gave it to its new owner. So, not very worried about the weeks long span at 100%, but it would be nice to have a little control over the sensitivity and timing of Optimized Charging. Might look into AlDente if it starts to bother me.
 

CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
Considering my last MBP (Late 2013 13") was plugged in most of its life, its battery health was still above 90% when I gave it to its new owner. So, not very worried about the weeks long span at 100%
Avoiding a long time on 100% isn't only about battery capacity itself, but other issues as well. For example, leaving a battery on 100% for long periods of time, significantly increases the risk of swollen cells which in best case only warps your case and in worst case starts a fire.

The best is to use a battery regularly and if you can't, it should be kept between 50% and 75% which unfortunately Apple's solution is not capable of delivering. I have been doing that using AlDente with my last MacBook Pro which I used for over 5 years and when I sold it, it still had 93% health at almost 500 cycles.
 

DJ Rob

macrumors member
Oct 11, 2020
53
81
leaving a battery on 100% for long periods of time, significantly increases the risk of swollen cells which in best case only warps your case and in worst case starts a fire
Yes, this is definitely a concern, thanks for mentioning it. I'm sure leaving a MBP plugged in and at 100% charge increases the chance of battery swelling, but I've had this happen to a work laptop (2018 13" MBP) that was plugged in and clamshelled about half the time and OTG the other half. Could be the battery lottery, but agree the risk is higher if the battery is not exercised or maintained in a partially charged range.
 
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GladysHanna

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Aug 14, 2021
3
1
Because this feature sucks. It has a hard time learning your charging behavior and often is unable to do so. It can take months until it kicks in and even if it does, it might stop working again. In addition, optimized charging usually limits to 80 or 90%, which still is too high if you run the machine on external power for an extended period of time.

Disable optimized charging and use AlDente, works much better. It allows you to pick a fixed charging state. For when using it on external power for a longer time. Best is something in between 50% and 75%.
Thank you so much for taking your time to reply, I will try AlDente!
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,854
4,594
I do not understand, why Apple doesn't give us the opportunity, to set max charge manually to eg 80% ???

That would be so easy - and we wouldn't need this not working "automatic"..
The problem isn't that it doesn't work. Eventually it does what it is supposed to but then once you use the battery the algorithm seems to throw away the previous learned behavior and start from scratch again.

My M1 MacBook Air on both Big Sur and Monterey Beta was working great for me for several weeks mostly plugged in. Sometimes when I would unplug and use the battery for a while it would charge back to 100% when plugged in but then almost immediately it would let the battery discharge to about 80% over two days or so. Other times it charged back to ~80% and stopped charging.

Then the last time I used it unplugged for about a total of 1 hour and now it has stubbornly stayed at ~100% for 3 days. It might be a beta issue but it sure seems to match up with what others are complaining about.
 
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Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,966
12,654
NC
Help me understand how batteries and charging work.

If you could manually tell the device to stop charging the battery at 80%... wouldn't that same 80% of the battery get drained and recharged over and over? Wearing out that same 80%?

Or are devices smart enough to use different parts of the batteries? Different cells or whatever?

I, too, thought it would make sense to let us control how much juice gets pumped into the batteries. But there's gotta be a reason why we can't.
 
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CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
No, you can't wear out a certain part of a Lithium battery. Well, you could on multi-cell batteries, but that is not possible because they are attached to a balancing circuitry which makes sure the cells are all charged and discharged evenly.

In the end, it's all about the battery chemistry. Every charging cycle does damage to the battery's chemistry, reducing its ability to store energy. So every time you charge, you will lose a tiny bit of your battery capacity. Also, the chemistry will age even without using it, using some of its ability to store energy over time, thus reducing the capacity of the battery. That's perfectly normal and there is nothing you can do about this.

There are however things that Li-Ion or Li-Poly Chemistry doesn't like at all. This includes
  • being discharged to very low levels (<20%) [medium impact]
  • staying on low charging levels for a long period of time [high impact]
  • being charged to 100% [medium impact]
  • or staying on 100% charge all the time [high impact].
Doing these things, increases the aging of the battery chemistry and makes the battery lose it's original capacity faster.

Now to make that clear: You won't destroy your battery immediately by running it empty or by charging it to 100%. There is nothing wrong with doing that when it's necessary. But it shouldn't be done too often or all the time like a lot of people do. So don't run your battery to 0% all the time and don't charge it to 100% if you don't absolutely need a full charge. Try to use your battery within the range of 20% to 80% when possible, which can reduce aging of the chemistry significantly over the long term.

Anyhow, the aforementioned behavior has a comparably minimal impact on battery health. Common mistakes such as leaving a battery on low charging levels for extended periods of time or leaving it plugged in with 100% charge for days are much worse for the chemistry as already indicated in the list above, and are to be avoided at all cost. Thus, if you don't plan on using the battery for a longer time, you shouldn't charge to more than 80%, better is something in between 50% to 70%. This avoids the accelerated chemistry aging from being stored at a charge of 100%.

There is no reason why Apple doesn't let the users take manual control over their optimized battery charging. I guess it's just against their philosophy which is plain stupid because their feature doesn't work. But that's why I recommend AlDente which does what Apple failed to do. They are using the same mechanism that Apple's optimized charging uses, telling the SMC to stop charging at a specific battery level. Once that level is reached, no more energy will be pumped into the battery and the Mac runs from external power. If you want to use the battery, you can either choose to charge it to 100% before you unplug or you simply use it from whatever your limit is.
 
Last edited:

Michael Scrip

macrumors 604
Mar 4, 2011
7,966
12,654
NC
No, you can't wear out a certain part of a Lithium battery. Well, you could on multi-cell batteries, but that is not possible because they are attached to a balancing circuitry which makes sure the cells are all charged and discharged evenly.

In the end, it's all about the battery chemistry. Every charging cycle does damage to the battery's chemistry, reducing its ability to store energy. So every time you charge, you will lose a tiny bit of your battery capacity. Also, the chemistry will age even without using it, using some of its ability to store energy over time, thus reducing the capacity of the battery. That's perfectly normal and there is nothing you can do about this.

There are however things that Li-Ion or Li-Poly Chemistry doesn't like at all. This includes
  • being discharged to very low levels (<20%) [medium impact]
  • staying on low charging levels for a long period of time [high impact]
  • being charged to 100% [medium impact]
  • or staying on 100% charge all the time [high impact].
Doing these things, increases the aging of the battery chemistry and makes the battery lose it's original capacity faster.

Now to make that clear: You won't destroy your battery immediately by running it empty or by charging it to 100%. There is nothing wrong with doing that when it's necessary. But it shouldn't be done too often or all the time like a lot of people do. So don't run your battery to 0% all the time and don't charge it to 100% if you don't absolutely need a full charge. Try to use your battery within the range of 20% to 80% when possible, which can reduce aging of the chemistry significantly over the long term.

Anyhow, the aforementioned behavior has a comparably minimal impact on battery health. Common mistakes such as leaving a battery on low charging levels for extended periods of time or leaving it plugged in with 100% charge for days are much worse for the chemistry as already indicated in the list above, and are to be avoided at all cost. Thus, if you don't plan on using the battery for a longer time, you shouldn't charge to more than 80%, better is something in between 50% to 70%. This avoids the accelerated chemistry aging from being stored at a charge of 100%.

There is no reason why Apple doesn't let the users take manual control over their optimized battery charging. I guess it's just against their philosophy which is plain stupid because their feature doesn't work. But that's why I recommend AlDente which does what Apple failed to do. They are using the same mechanism that Apple's optimized charging uses, telling the SMC to stop charging at a specific battery level. Once that level is reached, no more energy will be pumped into the battery and the Mac runs from external power. If you want to use the battery, you can either choose to charge it to 100% before you unplug or you simply use it from whatever your limit is.

Thank you for the info!

:)
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,854
4,594
The problem isn't that it doesn't work. Eventually it does what it is supposed to but then once you use the battery the algorithm seems to throw away the previous learned behavior and start from scratch again.

My M1 MacBook Air on both Big Sur and Monterey Beta was working great for me for several weeks mostly plugged in. Sometimes when I would unplug and use the battery for a while it would charge back to 100% when plugged in but then almost immediately it would let the battery discharge to about 80% over two days or so. Other times it charged back to ~80% and stopped charging.

Then the last time I used it unplugged for about a total of 1 hour and now it has stubbornly stayed at ~100% for 3 days. It might be a beta issue but it sure seems to match up with what others are complaining about.
And suddenly Optimized battery charging on my M1 MBA is working again. It took 4 days of being plugged in after the Monterey Beta 5 update for it reduce my charge to 80% (76.1% based on full charge ÷ design capacity). Like I said, the algorithm is very opaque. It should have had months of data to work with so why did it need to wait 4 days after the latest update to decide my usage wasn't changing? Weird.
 
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DJ Rob

macrumors member
Oct 11, 2020
53
81
Just wanted to provide an update documenting the Optimized Charging behavior on my 13" 2020 MBP with Big Sur 11.15.2. It took just about 2 weeks of being continuously plugged in for the algorithm to start reducing the charge level from 100%.


1630064510314.png
 
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PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,227
Midwest America.
My 2019 has been showing charging 'On Hold' for the past week or so. 'On Hold'? Okay... So when does it become not on hold? I was wondering if I should just let it sit unplugged for a while and let it rundown till death, and see if that helps things. It seems the Optimized Charging is just doing whatever it wants and not showing us the secret it thinks will 'fix' our lives...
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,227
Midwest America.
You can start charging to 100% from the battery menu whenever you need it.

Yeah, but it's hard to move my finger and click that. It's hot, and humid, and choking with the stench of wild fires. I can barely function on normal days... /snark

I saw that. I also thought that I should just unplug it for a day every couple of days. That might exercise (exorcise) the battery.
 
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