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AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
I'm upgrading from an Early 2009 Mac Pro (4.1) running El Capitan (10.11.6) to a 2019 Mac Pro (7.1) running Monterey (12.2.1).

In my 2009 Mac I've been using a SeriTek / StarTek Q6G PCI to eSATA adapter connected to 3 external JBOD port multiplier expansion chassis (Sans Digital TR4M6G) each with 4 HDD running software RAID 0+1. This has worked well for a number of years and I'd like to continue with my external storage solution.
But SeriTek has no drivers that will install on Monterey. I've mailed SeriTek about this but haven't heard back. I don't hold much hope they will be solving this for me.

I've just been on a web-search for a replacement PCI to eSATA card and after looking at a number of questionable claims-to-support I've ended up here.

Does anyone know of a PCI to eSATA adapter that supports a new Mac Pro?
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
Why does it require drivers? Shouldn't macOS's built-in AHCI drivers be sufficient?
Did you try putting the card in the MacPro7,1?
Do you have a link for the current drivers you are using?
 

AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
Why does it require drivers? Shouldn't macOS's built-in AHCI drivers be sufficient?
Did you try putting the card in the MacPro7,1?
Do you have a link for the current drivers you are using?
It would seem to require drivers to work. They were required on the MacPro 4.1 (where they install just fine) and it doesn't work in the MacPro 7.1 without them.

It would be nice if MacOS included compatible drivers, but it doesn't seem to.

The card is in the Mac (not working) as I type this.

Yup.
Look for;
FirmTek SeriTek/Q6G 6.1.7 - driver update

So how come all you've got is questions and no answers???
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
So how come all you've got is questions and no answers???
Because questions are how you get answers.

I was able to install the driver in Monterey. I downloaded the FirmTek SeriTek/Q6G 6.1.7 - driver update in the "Mac OS X 10.13.x Drivers" list. I ran the Install-Q6G-Driver.app which automatically copies the x86_64 version of the driver to /Library/Extensions (the installer also includes a universal version of the kext for ppc, i386, and x86_64). This triggers macOS to say that a new driver has been installed and that you have to go to System Preferences.app -> Security & Privacy to allow it. Click the lock icon, enter your password, and click on the "Allow" button next to the "System software from developer “George Rath” has been updated." message. Then restart the computer.

Did you get that far? I don't know if it works since I don't have the PCIe card. If it got installed then maybe the system log could have a message saying why it didn't activate.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
You're asking the wrong questions.

I need a recommendation not troubleshooting.
Did you try the driver in Monterey? My recommendation is to try that first.

What about connecting your JBOD to the internal SATA port of the MacPro7,1? You can get a SATA to eSATA adapter. Maybe it doesn't support port multiplier.

I tried checking the usual suspects: OWC, Sonnet, CalDigit, HighPoint, etc.

Highpoint has the RocketRAID 600 series but they don't support port multiplier. They have this to say about that:
https://highpoint-technologies-inc.helpjuice.com/135409-hpt-rr-series/pm-replacement-article
https://www.highpoint-tech.com/sata-catalog
https://www.highpoint-tech.com/rr600-overview

CalDigit had a Thunderbolt 3 dock (the TS3, not TS3+) which supported port multiplier. They have the CalDigit FASTA-6GU3 Plus but I don't think they make that anymore?
https://archive.caldigit.com/kb/index.asp?KBID=145&viewlocale=1
https://archive.caldigit.com/fasta-6gu3plus/

Sonnet has some old products that supported port multiplier. One is ExpressCard (old and slow), not PCIe, but they do have a ExpressCard Thunderbolt adapter...
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/tempoduoexpresscard34.html

I want to the Sans Digital TR4M6G webpage which had a link to a page "Sans Digital eSATA port multiplier controller card selections" that doesn't exist anymore (but here's an archived copy):
https://web.archive.org/web/2016102...nsdigital.com/esata-port-multiplier/index.php
 
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AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
@joevt
Like I said originally, I have done both my troubleshooting and my shopping.

If you can't testify to the experience of running an eSATA adapter in an environment similar to mine then all the above is your opinion - and like everybody I've got my own opinions. In this matter my opinions are based on my experience of a decade running this particular rust farm.

What experience are your opinions based on?
 

AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
Did you try the driver in Monterey? My recommendation is to try that first.
To answer your question: Yes.

Did you try the driver on a Mac Pro 7.1?
My observation is that the motherboard security chip and the mated-for-life M.2 drive are not going to let =THAT= installer fiddle with the system in the way it wants/needs to. Even after admin authorization.
 

AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
To answer your question: Yes.

Did you try the driver on a Mac Pro 7.1?
My observation is that the motherboard security chip and the mated-for-life M.2 drive are not going to let =THAT= installer fiddle with the system in the way it wants/needs to. Even after admin authorization.
I have been proved wrong!
Through my research I have discovered that disabling SIP will allow me to install the drivers I need. I can then re-enable SIP and my adapter works.

I'm sure there's a bunch of step-by-steps out there that tell you how to disable SIP. I used the instructions in the RocketRAID 600 Macintosh Driver Installation Manual.
Download the PDF here: https://filedn.com/lG3WBCwKGHT7yNuTsFCwXy0/HighPoint-Download/Document/Guide/RocketRAID/Mac%20Driver%20Manual/HighPointRR_Mac_Installation_Guide_v1.03_21_10_8.pdf
I found these instructions to be accurate, ease to follow and complete - except they don't tell you to turn SIP back on when you're done. Your choice I guess.
Note: There are a number of procedures covered in this manual. You only need the section dealing with disabling SIP.
[NOPE, see below]

On that note I will answer my original question;
I now know that the SeriTek Q6G will install successfully in a MacPro 7.1 running Monterey - Once you figure out how to get the drivers in.
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
Did you try the driver on a Mac Pro 7.1?
My observation is that the motherboard security chip and the mated-for-life M.2 drive are not going to let =THAT= installer fiddle with the system in the way it wants/needs to. Even after admin authorization.
My installation attempt was on a MacPro3,1 but that doesn't matter since there's always a way to install an extension.

I have discovered that disabling SIP will allow me to install the drivers I need
Congrats on your discovery. I might have suggested that earlier if I knew what error messages you were getting from the installation attempt. Or maybe there were no error messages?

What speed do you get with your RAID 0+1 setup on the MacPro7,1?
 

AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
What speed do you get with your RAID 0+1 setup on the MacPro7,1?
This is not a blazingly fast setup, but big and cheap. Ir runs about 150Mbps on my 4.1. I think the limit there is the computer getting buss bound. I haven't had it in my 7.1 long enough to know what it will do there.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
This is not a blazingly fast setup, but big and cheap. Ir runs about 150Mbps on my 4.1. I think the limit there is the computer getting buss bound. I haven't had it in my 7.1 long enough to know what it will do there.
Do you mean 150 MB/s?

I'm not too clear on what RAID 0+1 means. I think it means it's a RAID 0 of a pair of drives with mirroring to another pair of drives. That would mean that there's no speed increase compared to a single drive (because you are using software RAID which means the mirrored data must be sent twice). 150 MB/s is approximately the speed of a single HDD and is also the speed of 25% of 600MB/s which is the max for SATA III (6Gbps x 8b/10b encoding = 600 MB/s).

I imagine that it writes 150 MB/s per drive. But 6G is more like 540 MB/s max, so I would expect more like 135 MB/s per drive. So 135+135 for the RAID 0 part = 270MB/s; 270MB/s + 270MB/s for the RAID 1 part. 540 MB/s total. Or maybe I'm not understanding something.
 

AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
I have been proved wrong!
[snip]
except they don't tell you to turn SIP back on when you're done. Your choice I guess.

Note: There are a number of procedures covered in this manual. You only need the section dealing with disabling SIP.

On that note I will answer my original question;
I now know that the SeriTek Q6G will install successfully in a MacPro 7.1 running Monterey - Once you figure out how to get the drivers in.
Not your choice at all!
In my further adventures with Apple's T2 chip, I have now discovered why these instructions don't tell you to turn SIP back on -

Both SIP and Secure Boot must be turned off and left off for the Q6G drivers to work properly.


This is probably true for any adapter that requires drivers.

Aside from that qualification, I stand by my statement that the Q6G works for me. :cool:
 
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AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
I think it means it's a RAID 0 of a pair of drives with mirroring to another pair of drives. That would mean that there's no speed increase compared to a single drive (because you are using software RAID which means the mirrored data must be sent twice).
You are incorrect.

Mirrored data is not 'sent twice'. it is sent to two drives at the same time.

Striped drives (RAID-0) are somewhat faster than a single drive because you are (again) writing to two drives at the same time but only putting half the data on each drive, therefore taking half the time.

Take care.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
Mirrored data is not 'sent twice'. it is sent to two drives at the same time.
It's using a software RAID though, so the software on the Mac needs to send the data twice for mirroring to work. Are you saying there is a SATA command that can send a single block of data to multiple drives?
I guess the way to test this is to compare a non-RAID with a software RAID-1 to see if they are the same speed. I suspect the RAID 1 will be half the speed. But wait, let's think about that a second:

To be clear, we are talking about multiple drives connected to the same data line.
The slow part is waiting for the drives to write the data - not actually sending the data.
So let's say it takes 1 second to send a block of data and 4 seconds to write the data.
Take 1 second to send one block to diskA. diskA will take 4 seconds to write the block.
After the 1st second, you can send the same block to diskB. diskB will take 4 seconds to write the data.
The total time will be something like 6 seconds.
Code:
Writing 1 mirrored block:
        0      1      2      3      4      5      6
diskA   | send |           write           |
diskB          | send |           write           |
take the ideal time to write the data and divide by the actual time to get the efficiency:
4/6 = 66% efficient
So it's better than half the speed. And if you increase the number of blocks to infinity, then the time can approach the same speed as a single drive (getting closer to 100% efficient).
This depends on the ability to send data to a drive while it's writing previously sent data. The drive should have a cache to allow this.

Code:
Writing 2 mirrored blocks:
        0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10
diskA   | send |           write           |
diskB          | send |           write           |
diskA                               | send |           write           |
diskB                                      | send |           write           |
8/10 = 80% efficient.
You see in this case that we can send a block to diskA while it's still writing the previous block. Same for the mirror, diskB.

So mirroring data doesn't need to be much slower than non-mirrored data for two drives connected to the same data line as long as the drives are half the speed of the data line or slower.

In the four drive case, when RAID 1 and RAID 0 are mixed:
Code:
        0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24
--- 2 blocks:                                                                                             
stripe0 | s |       w       |                                                                            
mirror0     | s |       w       |                                                                        
stripe1         | s |       w       |                                                                    
mirror1             | s |       w       |                                                                
--- +2 = 4 blocks:                                                                                             
stripe0                 | s |       w       |                                                            
mirror0                     | s |       w       |                                                        
stripe1                         | s |       w       |                                                    
mirror1                             | s |       w       |                                                
--- +2 = 6 blocks:                                                                                             
stripe0                                 | s |       w       |                                            
mirror0                                     | s |       w       |                                        
stripe1                                         | s |       w       |                                    
mirror1                                             | s |       w       |                                
--- +2 = 8 blocks:                                                                                             
stripe0                                                 | s |       w       |                            
mirror0                                                     | s |       w       |                        
stripe1                                                         | s |       w       |                    
mirror1                                                             | s |       w       |                
--- +2 = 10 blocks:                                                                                            
stripe0                                                                 | s |       w       |            
mirror0                                                                     | s |       w       |        
stripe1                                                                         | s |       w       |    
mirror1                                                                             | s |       w       |

s = send (there's only one data line so we can send to only one disk at a time - none of these overlap)
w = write (a disk can only write one piece of data at a time - no write to the same disk can overlap)

efficiency = expected write time for a non-RAID divided by actual write time

 2 blocks =   8/8 = 100%
 4 blocks = 16/12 = 133%
 6 blocks = 24/16 = 150%
 8 blocks = 32/20 = 160%
10 blocks = 40/24 = 166%

w = 4 seconds per block
s = 1 second per send
m = 2 times the same block (mirroring)
r = 2 raid count (2 disks to raid with)
n = number of blocks (a multiple of r for simplicity)

expected write time = n*w
actual time = s*m*r + n*w/r
efficiency for n blocks = n*w / (s*m*r + n*w/r)
But this only works if w ≥ s*m*r

In the case of a SATA 6g, we can only send 6Gbps which is ≈ 540 MB/s. I guess we need to know the maximum speed for a single drive to figure out what the ideal speed is.
Per drive, we get 135 MB/s so the max RAID 0 speed for a pair is 270 MB/s if the drives are fast enough.
 

AmbroseM

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Nov 26, 2019
16
1
Are you saying there is a SATA command that can send a single block of data to multiple drives?
No. I'm saying that logical addresses and physical addresses aren't locked in a one-to-one correspondence.

Did you ever send an email to a list of addresses? It's the same concept.

I'm sure there's a WIKI right out on the net that can explain it better and in more detail than I am able or willing to.

+++
I have become bored with this conversation and this ASCII art. I think it might go better if you were actually running a RAID array. I have a stack of 3 Terabyte drives I'd be willing to make you a good deal on. You could set up an eight-drive striped array and see how these things work. I'll even sell you a ninth drive so you can run parity for redundancy.
 
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