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MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
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Hello, please help. I can't understand macos partition scheme
1690424090453.jpeg


My understanding that you have an HDD then you can divide it into partition and each partition is its own "world" . From this all I understand is that "APPLE SSD SM0512G Media" is my internal storage. Which one am I supposed to back up?

I am using Carbon Copy Cloner and want to create a bootable backup. Am I try to partition an external drive it asks me if I want volumes or partition. Which one is it? Should I copy over to a partition or to a volume? What if I am making multiple Mac backups on a large drive? Each Mac needs its own partition or each backup to a volume?
 

davidlv

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2009
2,291
874
Kyoto, Japan
Hello, please help. I can't understand macos partition scheme
View attachment 2237897

My understanding that you have an HDD then you can divide it into partition and each partition is its own "world" . From this all I understand is that "APPLE SSD SM0512G Media" is my internal storage. Which one am I supposed to back up?

I am using Carbon Copy Cloner and want to create a bootable backup. Am I try to partition an external drive it asks me if I want volumes or partition. Which one is it? Should I copy over to a partition or to a volume? What if I am making multiple Mac backups on a large drive? Each Mac needs its own partition or each backup to a volume?
The owner of CCC highly recommends not making bootable backups (read the CCC blog on the HP).
Why are you looking at the Disk Utility screen? Look at the CCC backup screen.
You can backup to either a partition or Volume as the Destination. Nowadays, with APFS, Volumes are really useful, they share disk space and can be added or removed easily. The screen shot shows an external Crucial MX500 512GB SATA in an Orico clear case (USB-C connection). Really fast.
Screenshot.jpg
 
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ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,918
2,170
Redondo Beach, California
Hello, please help. I can't understand macos partition scheme
View attachment 2237897

My understanding that you have an HDD then you can divide it into partition and each partition is its own "world" . From this all I understand is that "APPLE SSD SM0512G Media" is my internal storage. Which one am I supposed to back up?

I am using Carbon Copy Cloner and want to create a bootable backup. Am I try to partition an external drive it asks me if I want volumes or partition. Which one is it? Should I copy over to a partition or to a volume? What if I am making multiple Mac backups on a large drive? Each Mac needs its own partition or each backup to a volume?
Why are you using CCC? What is wrong with Apple's Time Machine?

I think the reason some people like CCC is because the word "Clone" is conceptually simple. But you don't want a clone of your drive. What if a file is silently corrupted. (Somethig is wrong with it but yo don't, yet, know it.). Then you clone the drive. Then when you look at the file it is bad, but so is the "clone".

A better idea is to make a copy of the disk every hour and keep all the old copies. Time Machine does exactly this, but in a smarter way that uses less disk space. Then if the file is bad you can look back hour by hour and find the last good version.

If the computer catches fire and has to be replaced. Apple makes if very easy to use Time Machine to do a completer restore t the last hour before the accident.

Back to what is a partition. It is a section of a disk (or SSD) used to hold one file system. A computer can have any number of file systems mounted at any one time.
 

NoBoMac

Moderator
Staff member
Jul 1, 2014
6,285
4,974
Mac HD is the OS, it’s a sealed volume containing only MacOS. No user data or user installed programs. No need to back that up.

User stuff is in Mac HD - Data. That is where backup-able data is.

Gory details at:


SSV not only helps prevent tampering with any Apple software that’s part of the operating system, it also makes macOS software update more reliable and much safer. And because SSV uses APFS (Apple File System) snapshots, if an update can’t be performed, the old system version can be restored without reinstallation.
 
Last edited:

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,011
8,444
My understanding that you have an HDD then you can divide it into partition and each partition is its own "world" . From this all I understand is that "APPLE SSD SM0512G Media" is my internal storage. Which one am I supposed to back up?
Yes, but there are complications.
Traditional partitions allow you to have multiple different file systems that could even be different types (HFS, APFS for Mac, FAT32 or NTFS for Windows, ext3/4 for Linux etc.) on a disk - with a traditional HDD each partition had part of the disk physically dedicated to it (SSDs are somewhat more complicated). Changing the partition layout without wiping the whole disk is possible - but can be complicated and slow as it requires physically moving data around.

APFS added the concept of "Volumes" which look something like partitions to the user, but are quick and easy to create and delete because they're managed by the system keeping track of what data belongs in which volume and don't rely on physical disc locations. With APFS you have a "Container" (think of that as an old-school partition) that can contain multiple APFS "volumes". APFS also has tricks like creating "snapshots" instantly (because nothing has to be duplicated until it actually changes) - modern backup apps will first create an instant "snapshot" of the volume and proceed to back up that so you can go on working and changing things without interfering with the backup. Then there are "overlay" volumes where one read-only volume contains the original files and another volume just contains the additions and changes.

So what you are seeing is the main "Container" partition, which contains a set of volumes called "Macintosh HD". The further complication are that what you normally see as "Macintosh HD" is actually - as @NoBoMac said - the volume "Macintosh HD - Data" with your files and changes overlayed on the immutable "Macintosh HD" volume containing the system files.

So, TL:DNR is that the your stuff that needs backing up is in the "Macintosh HD" - but let your backup utility worry about that.

What if I am making multiple Mac backups on a large drive? Each Mac needs its own partition or each backup to a volume?
As long as you're working in an all-APFS world, Volumes are ideal for this. They're also useful if you want to share a disk between Time Machine and other backups.

Why are you using CCC? What is wrong with Apple's Time Machine?
Well, in an ideal world you'd use both for redundancy. One copy is not a backup - the "321" rule is 3 backups, 2 different formats, 1 off site".

Maybe Time Machine for day-to-day and CCC or Super Duper once a week or something (NB: do what I say, don't do what I do :)). Time Machine is easy and convenient but has been known to foul up - especially if you're using it with a NAS.

Also, there are some types of file (large media files, virtual machine disk images) that you want a backup copy of but don't need a file history for. There's a bunch of stuff on my HD excluded from time machine for which an occasional snapshot is fine.

Still, when CCC and Super Duper were created, APFS was only a twinkle in Apple's eye, Macs could boot from a bootable clone even if the internal disk was fried and many Macs still had user-replaceable hard drives, so a bootable clone was instant disaster recovery and an easy way to upgrade/replace your hard drive. The various caveats around bootable clones these days maybe make them less useful.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,239
13,312
I can make this easy for you.

Download SuperDuper from here:

SuperDuper is FREE to use to create a "full clone" of your boot drive.

Leave your internal boot drive alone -- it's fine.

Take your external drive (the one that's going to be used for the backup) and use disk utility to format it to APFS, GUID partition format.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT CONTAINERS, PARTITIONS, OR ANY OF THAT.

Now launch SuperDuper and follow the instructions.
It's VERY easy to use.

SuperDuper will clone your internal drive to the backup drive and make it bootable.

IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT
BE AWARE that the latest versions of the Mac OS running on m-series Macs may not be able to boot from platter-based hard drives.
An SSD -- that's ok.
But HDD - NO.
But the cloned backup will still "be there" (just won't boot)

Give this a try.
You'll come back to the thread and post, "I never would have believed this could be so easy!" ...
 
Last edited:

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
The owner of CCC highly recommends not making bootable backups (read the CCC blog on the HP).
Why are you looking at the Disk Utility screen? Look at the CCC backup screen.
You can backup to either a partition or Volume as the Destination. Nowadays, with APFS, Volumes are really useful, they share disk space and can be added or removed easily. The screen shot shows an external Crucial MX500 512GB SATA in an Orico clear case (USB-C connection). Really fast. View attachment 2237903

I tried to understand if I should do multiple partitions and backup each mac to each partition, or should I do 1 partition and make multiple folders, A folder for each mac to back to. Can't get an answer. If its not bootable, whats the difference between backing up to a partition, volume, or folder?

SuperDuper says they can make bootable copies of MacOS. I am confused.

"Version 3.7.5 supports bootable backups for Big Sur, Monterey, and Ventura, is Apple silicon native, lets you ignore "missing drive" errors during scheduled copies, and also improves Smart Wake, which ensures your backups happen whether your Mac is awake or asleep...and won't turn on your screen if your Mac is already awake."

@Fishrrman below says its possible too. So which is it? bootable or not?

Why are you using CCC? What is wrong with Apple's Time Machine?

I think the reason some people like CCC is because the word "Clone" is conceptually simple. But you don't want a clone of your drive. What if a file is silently corrupted. (Somethig is wrong with it but yo don't, yet, know it.). Then you clone the drive. Then when you look at the file it is bad, but so is the "clone".

A better idea is to make a copy of the disk every hour and keep all the old copies. Time Machine does exactly this, but in a smarter way that uses less disk space. Then if the file is bad you can look back hour by hour and find the last good version.

If the computer catches fire and has to be replaced. Apple makes if very easy to use Time Machine to do a completer restore t the last hour before the accident.

Back to what is a partition. It is a section of a disk (or SSD) used to hold one file system. A computer can have any number of file systems mounted at any one time.

I once tried TimeMachine and it failed/corrupted in the first time I resorted to it. Booted from a CCC backed HDD, and started working again like nothing happened. I never went back to using TimeMachine.

Plus, can I get my data back if I use a TimeMachine backed up disk on another computer or is it "Only TimeMachine can read the files"? Can I browse the directory like I browse my current HDD?

How does a file get corrupted? I did have system corruption do to messing around with system files, pulling storage devices without eject, ..etc but never a single file getting corrupted. I think those are more likely ones that have to do with Syncing and encrypting
 
Last edited:

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
I can make this easy for you.

Download SuperDuper from here:

SuperDuper is FREE to use to create a "full clone" of your boot drive.

Leave your internal boot drive alone -- it's fine.

Take your external drive (the one that's going to be used for the backup) and use disk utility to format it to APFS, GUID partition format.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT CONTAINERS, PARTITIONS, OR ANY OF THAT.

Now launch SuperDuper and follow the instructions.
It's VERY easy to use.

SuperDuper will clone your internal drive to the backup drive and make it bootable.

IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT
BE AWARE that the latest versions of the Mac OS running on m-series Macs may not be able to boot from platter-based hard drives.
An SSD -- that's ok.
But HDD - NO.
But the cloned backup will still "be there" (just won't boot)

Give this a try.
You'll come back to the thread and post, "I never would have believed this could be so easy!" ...

I am wary of SuperDuper. Its free and the site looks like from 2004. not saying its bad, but surely there is a reason people are paying for CCC. Not saying its bad, just...idk. CCC looks more professional company to trust your backups with. SuperDuper looks like a one man operation.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
Mac HD is the OS, it’s a sealed volume containing only MacOS. No user data or user installed programs. No need to back that up.

User stuff is in Mac HD - Data. That is where backup-able data is.

Gory details at:


thanks for the explanation. better labeling should be used like Partition for container disk, "MacOS System Files" for Macintosh HD , and "Main HD" for Macintosh HD. In the image I posted the Macintosh HD (system) has even a deeper directory with another Macintosh HD-Snapshot next to it.

Isn't the macOS install/system is the one in the /Library and /System ? because I can access those and change them, or there is something beyond that? I never something deeper than this on MacOS since first OS X Jaguar days. Maybe they are the "hidden" files revealed by the shortcut cmd+shift+.



Yes, but there are complications.
Traditional partitions allow you to have multiple different file systems that could even be different types (HFS, APFS for Mac, FAT32 or NTFS for Windows, ext3/4 for Linux etc.) on a disk - with a traditional HDD each partition had part of the disk physically dedicated to it (SSDs are somewhat more complicated). Changing the partition layout without wiping the whole disk is possible - but can be complicated and slow as it requires physically moving data around.

APFS added the concept of "Volumes" which look something like partitions to the user, but are quick and easy to create and delete because they're managed by the system keeping track of what data belongs in which volume and don't rely on physical disc locations. With APFS you have a "Container" (think of that as an old-school partition) that can contain multiple APFS "volumes". APFS also has tricks like creating "snapshots" instantly (because nothing has to be duplicated until it actually changes) - modern backup apps will first create an instant "snapshot" of the volume and proceed to back up that so you can go on working and changing things without interfering with the backup. Then there are "overlay" volumes where one read-only volume contains the original files and another volume just contains the additions and changes.

So what you are seeing is the main "Container" partition, which contains a set of volumes called "Macintosh HD". The further complication are that what you normally see as "Macintosh HD" is actually - as @NoBoMac said - the volume "Macintosh HD - Data" with your files and changes overlayed on the immutable "Macintosh HD" volume containing the system files.

So, TL:DNR is that the your stuff that needs backing up is in the "Macintosh HD" - but let your backup utility worry about that.


As long as you're working in an all-APFS world, Volumes are ideal for this. They're also useful if you want to share a disk between Time Machine and other backups.


Well, in an ideal world you'd use both for redundancy. One copy is not a backup - the "321" rule is 3 backups, 2 different formats, 1 off site".

Maybe Time Machine for day-to-day and CCC or Super Duper once a week or something (NB: do what I say, don't do what I do :)). Time Machine is easy and convenient but has been known to foul up - especially if you're using it with a NAS.

Also, there are some types of file (large media files, virtual machine disk images) that you want a backup copy of but don't need a file history for. There's a bunch of stuff on my HD excluded from time machine for which an occasional snapshot is fine.

Thanks for the clarifications.

-Do you know if DMG/sparse bundle can get corrupted? I always fear I would backup a DMG file then it won't mount.
-Can they be mounted by other systems or does MacOS the only system that can mount them. You know, just in case I do not have a MacOS computer around for whatever reason.

I am thinking of backing to an encrypted DMG file and uploading it to the cloud as a backup but I fear of corruption and that the encrypted DMG file can only be opened with MacOS. I wonder if I should go with Veracrypt.

--
Can you please help me with something. I have copies of older Macs which probably no longer bootable on modern computers but I want access to the data. Is backing them up to a folder enough or should i create a dedicated volume/partition to them?

Plus do you know what system/macos install files I can drop from the backup because the smaller the backup the better as I plan to upload them to the cloud as part of a 321-backup plan.

Much thanks!

Still, when CCC and Super Duper were created, APFS was only a twinkle in Apple's eye, Macs could boot from a bootable clone even if the internal disk was fried and many Macs still had user-replaceable hard drives, so a bootable clone was instant disaster recovery and an easy way to upgrade/replace your hard drive. The various caveats around bootable clones these days maybe make them less useful.

SuperDuper says they can make bootable copies!?
Whats the solution now if your HDD fails? Previously I clone a backup and install it physically in the computer.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,239
13,312
"I am wary of SuperDuper."

Geesh. It's been around as long as CCC (maybe longer).

I will say it again:
Just TRY IT.
If it doesn't work for you, erase the drive and try something else.

I use BOTH CCC AND SD (when warranted).

Personal experience:
I was having trouble coaxing CCC to create a bootable clone of my 2021 MacBook Pro 14 to an SSD.
But SuperDuper did it, first try.

I DO use CCC to "maintain" that [same] clone, sometimes.
 

davidlv

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2009
2,291
874
Kyoto, Japan
Whats the solution now if your HDD fails?
Read the CCC blog, it explains how to do that very well, but in short;
Boot up from the Recovery partition (Command+r keys) or a USB system install disk, and reinstall the system.
At the end of the install, connect your CCC backup disk (1 partition or multiple Volumes OK), select the proper Backup, & use the Migration Assistant to get your personalized system and data back.
Fairly fast and the system is always fresh that way.
 

kitKAC

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2022
883
854
"I am wary of SuperDuper."

Geesh. It's been around as long as CCC (maybe longer).

I will say it again:
Just TRY IT.
If it doesn't work for you, erase the drive and try something else.

I use BOTH CCC AND SD (when warranted).

Personal experience:
I was having trouble coaxing CCC to create a bootable clone of my 2021 MacBook Pro 14 to an SSD.
But SuperDuper did it, first try.

I DO use CCC to "maintain" that [same] clone, sometimes.

I don't think I've used CCC at all but have been using SuperDuper! since 2006, because it just works.
 

NoBoMac

Moderator
Staff member
Jul 1, 2014
6,285
4,974
In the image I posted the Macintosh HD (system) has even a deeper directory with another Macintosh HD-Snapshot next to it.

Isn't the macOS install/system is the one in the /Library and /System ?

If you go back to my post, the link and provided quote explain the extra level: it's a snapshot of the OS. System runs from the snapshot should an update fail and to prevent/limit malware from damaging/infecting the OS.

/System is OS owned, /Library is OS and user space. TLDR, there is something called firmlinks that gives the illusion that everything is self contained.


Generally, can't change /System (without disabling security) and below as it's a sealed volume and static. It's just base OS, no log files, no configuration files. Just, basically, executables and libraries.

Pretty much everything else winds up under /Library and /Users and there one can mess around.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
"I am wary of SuperDuper."

Geesh. It's been around as long as CCC (maybe longer).

I will say it again:
Just TRY IT.
If it doesn't work for you, erase the drive and try something else.

I use BOTH CCC AND SD (when warranted).

Personal experience:
I was having trouble coaxing CCC to create a bootable clone of my 2021 MacBook Pro 14 to an SSD.
But SuperDuper did it, first try.

I DO use CCC to "maintain" that [same] clone, sometimes.

I don't think I've used CCC at all but have been using SuperDuper! since 2006, because it just works.

I guess it doesn't hurt to add it to the arsenal but I have to get the paid version since the free version copies the whole disk all over again, no incremental backups AFAIK.

I just did not see a reason to buy another app that does the same thing the one I am using now does.

Read the CCC blog, it explains how to do that very well, but in short;
Boot up from the Recovery partition (Command+r keys) or a USB system install disk, and reinstall the system.
At the end of the install, connect your CCC backup disk (1 partition or multiple Volumes OK), select the proper Backup, & use the Migration Assistant to get your personalized system and data back.
Fairly fast and the system is always fresh that way.

thanks, I understand this processes. I meant if the storage literally physically fails. You have to swap it out for a new storage.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
If you go back to my post, the link and provided quote explain the extra level: it's a snapshot of the OS. System runs from the snapshot should an update fail and to prevent/limit malware from damaging/infecting the OS.

/System is OS owned, /Library is OS and user space. TLDR, there is something called firmlinks that gives the illusion that everything is self contained.


Generally, can't change /System (without disabling security) and below as it's a sealed volume and static. It's just base OS, no log files, no configuration files. Just, basically, executables and libraries.

Pretty much everything else winds up under /Library and /Users and there one can mess around.

Thanks for the explanation. Things are getting deep for the average simpleton.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,239
13,312
OP:

I'll try one more time.

Download SuperDuper and use it to create the ORIGINAL cloned backup.
SD is free and will do this easily. It's interface is VERY easy to understand and use.

Now...
When it's time to "incrementally update" the backup use CCC instead.
You already have CCC, right?

CCC will update the backup, even though it was originally created using SD.

Give this a try.
It works.
I've done it.

(I guess I'm through with this thread)
 

kitKAC

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2022
883
854
Thanks for the explanation. Things are getting deep for the average simpleton.

You don't need to know anything about the way your disk is set up to back it up via CCC or SuperDuper! Both apps will copy what they need too from the source destination to the backup destination.
 
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MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
You don't need to know anything about the way your disk is set up to back it up via CCC or SuperDuper! Both apps will copy what they need too from the source destination to the backup destination.

Not when you try to understand the image I posted in the original thread or when trying to copy one external drive to another external drive. Please refer to the original post.
 

davidlv

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2009
2,291
874
Kyoto, Japan
Not when you try to understand the image I posted in the original thread or when trying to copy one external drive to another external drive. Please refer to the original post.
You really should try to find the time to read up on this subject. Posting here for help is of course a good way to inquire about some things, gaining insight from other's experience, but nothing can be better than a good understanding of the basics. I have found that the Carbon Copy Cloner HP is a valuable source of good information.
In direct relation to this post and your original post, have you read the blog at www.bombich.com?
Especially; https://bombich.com/kb/ccc6/preparing-your-backup-disk-backup-os-x
 

kitKAC

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2022
883
854
Not when you try to understand the image I posted in the original thread or when trying to copy one external drive to another external drive. Please refer to the original post.

I did and as I said, you don't need to understand how the disk is setup to be able to make a copy of it. Your screenshot is from Disk Utility, CCC and SuperDuper! present you with a much simpler representation to make it easy to back up.

Anyway, good luck.
 
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Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,239
13,312
What's frustrating is when:
- someone posts thread about a problem
- you give them the solution
and then
- they won't even try it.
 
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MacBH928

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 17, 2008
8,738
3,896
You really should try to find the time to read up on this subject. Posting here for help is of course a good way to inquire about some things, gaining insight from other's experience, but nothing can be better than a good understanding of the basics. I have found that the Carbon Copy Cloner HP is a valuable source of good information.
In direct relation to this post and your original post, have you read the blog at www.bombich.com?
Especially; https://bombich.com/kb/ccc6/preparing-your-backup-disk-backup-os-x

I read here and there to get a better understanding but things get deep as I said for the average user. GUID Partition, Apple Masterboot, Volumes, Partitions, Macintosh HD-Data, APFS, HFS+ , Journaled, non Journaled, Containers...the lingo really starts to confuse people. I guess its better to trust the backup software.

What's frustrating is when:
- someone posts thread about a problem
- you give them the solution
and then
- they won't even try it.

I am not sure why you are posting this. Appreciated members here explained it to me and I understood and I understood the solution. I am just saying the Disk Utility partitioning is confusing for the average user
 

SummerSalt

macrumors newbie
Oct 10, 2023
12
0
Why are you using CCC? What is wrong with Apple's Time Machine?

I think the reason some people like CCC is because the word "Clone" is conceptually simple. But you don't want a clone of your drive. What if a file is silently corrupted. (Somethig is wrong with it but yo don't, yet, know it.). Then you clone the drive. Then when you look at the file it is bad, but so is the "clone".

A better idea is to make a copy of the disk every hour and keep all the old copies. Time Machine does exactly this, but in a smarter way that uses less disk space. Then if the file is bad you can look back hour by hour and find the last good version.

If the computer catches fire and has to be replaced. Apple makes if very easy to use Time Machine to do a completer restore t the last hour before the accident.

Back to what is a partition. It is a section of a disk (or SSD) used to hold one file system. A computer can have any number of file systems mounted at any one time.
Their Time Machine system has become increasingly unreliable. Literally destroyed a new computer I got in 2021 and they had to replace it. I had to manually rebuild the new one. That computer has worked fine until now I’m back to it crashing again—- disk utility reveals it is related to Time Machine and running in recovery mode to repair doesn’t work. Their Time Machine system is like playing with fire—- eventually you are going to get burned. Before this mess my iMac last 8 years with no issues- now two computers in two years are being corrupted by Time Machine. This is why people seek other solutions.
 
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