Printing Photos - Awful Colors

[MrCheeto]

I downloaded an AdobeRGB color test card. I verified with the Color Meter app that the colors reflect their RGB value accurately. My monitor is colorimeter calibrated.

I set the Color Profile of my Ricoh industrial printer (C8000) to Adobe RGB 1998 in ColorSync Utility.
I opened the test card in Preview and printed.

The image came out pretty good as far as the grays and white point but the sample image portion of it has very washed out colors in general.

So I open the image in ColorSync Utility. I apply the ICC profile of the printer to the image and sure enough my display matches my print.

So somehow my monitor can emulate my print but how can I get my print to look like my monitor, meaning the proper Adobe RGB image?

It's frustrating that I just want my images to come out of the printer correctly but by sending it to print it gets skewed and desaturated so awfully.

I thought color management meant that I could provide all the appropriate profiles and things would compensate for the different devices and give me an accurate print. So far the only thing I can predict is how washed out an image will appear by using ColorSync to apply the printer's ICC profile and screen proof an image.

If you can't tell, I'm quite new to the utility.



Basically, left is the image on my display, right is the image using the printer ICC and what I get from the printer as a result. How can I make my prints look like the left?

 

[wonderings]

First off the printer will be printing in CMYK, so any RGB is going to get converted to CMYK at some point, be it your software or on the printer itself.

Simply having a colour profile does not mean a printer can actually hit that profile. Colour matching and calibration is a tricky and complex field. Your display, and RGB in general has a much wider colour gamut than what is achievable in CMYK. That Ricoh printer is an office printer photocopier, not something that is going to giving off perfect or probably even consistent colour. You also need to take in account the paper you are using as well. Your prints are going to look different printing on coated and uncoated paper. I would suggest if you are looking for vibrant photo prints you should be looking at a photo printer and not an office photocopier.

 

[MrCheeto]

Absolutely agree with every point made.

The question is more to do with how to convert or calibrate the print to match the image. Since the print matches my screen, the outcome is predictable. I just need some way to adjust the image on my screen so it comes out of the printer looking like the image on the left.

In gun terminology, we call it “doping your shot” if you get what I mean. Kentucky windage.

 

[MacGizmo]

It's not going to happen... at least not the way you're doing it. You're comparing an RGB image on screen to a CMYK print on paper.

You need to set the color profile of the printer to a CMYK-based profile (the printer should have installed a profile when you installed the drivers). What you're doing is trying to tell the CMYK printer that it's actually an RGB printer... which of course it isn't.

Alternatively, you could convert the image to CMYK (or at least have it display as a CMYK proof – which you can do in an app like Photoshop). You'll notice the dramatic color shift on the screen in the image portion as soon as you do that – and you may find that the print is actually quite accurate. At the very least, you're comparing apples to apples that way.

And as @wonderings stated above, the type of paper you choose can have a LOT to do with it.

But in the end, you're using an "office" printer designed to print fast with a ton of finishing options typically used in an office environment (like stapling, duplex printing, etc.), not an inkjet photo printer specifically designed to produce color-accurate prints. It's not that color lasers can't produce accurate color prints, it's that your particular printer is not made to do that.

 

[organicCPU]

If you layout with Adobe RGB images, then outputting a PDF from your DTP software while converting and including your ICC profile RICOH_IM_C6500_C8000_CS.icc (that is a CMYK profile) gives you probably a better preview of what to expect when printing.

In ColorSync Utility, you could mark the Adobe RGB profile for comparison (click the triangle in the color model visualization), then you can click on your RICOH IM C6500/C8000 profile and see the differences. You'll notice that Adobe RGB has a much larger color range.

What you see on your screen, is produced by light (additive color model), what you see on your printer is produced by reflecting color pigments on paper (subtractive color model). If your software and display is capable of this features, you could try to emulate the RICOH profile on your screen, but you won't be able to output Adobe RGB on your Ricoh printer.

To get closer to that brilliant colors, that you can see on your screen, buy an ink based photo printer and print on glossy paper or take your data to a photo lab and print with their color profile (on glossy paper).

 

[MrCheeto]

I know this isn’t the printer for a framed work of art but it has always been capable of nice prints of company media etc.

The concern at this time is that now we have a certain level of color accuracy as a requirement.

I have the glossy print sheet in a light box with measured temperature and luminance. My screen is set to match this. The images match wonderfully IF I apply the printer ICC to the image on my iMac as a sort of soft proofing profile.

Basically, if the picture on my screen is what I’m looking for then the printer matches it well enough in every degree.

Unfortunately, the picture on my screen isn’t what I want.

So like you mentioned, the printer and paper have a much reduced gamut and contrast. I’m just trying to convert the values so that the perceptual colors stay the same during the transition from screen to machine.

I know I could use photoshop to soft proof and then tweak to my liking but that’s another process of perceptual subjective adjustment when all we’re trying to do is get the already adjusted and finalized images ready for print.

If I go tweaking fifty pictures each one may come out differently depending on perception etc. isn’t there an easy way to just say “represent this color with the values of this gamut as opposed to this one?”

Again, the printer does an excellent job of making very high quality prints. My issue is it’s shooting to the left. So do I adjust my rear sight to the right or to the left? See what I mean?

 

[organicCPU]

My issue is it’s shooting to the left.

That's what is called Delta (Δ). High quality printers might have lower Delta values, whereas regular printers do have a higher color shift.

Unfortunately, the picture on my screen isn’t what I want.

If you say that your screen can emulate the colors quite accurately, then you should be able to tweak the colors to your liking and save the color adjustments for batch conversion. That's not accurate proofing, but this printer isn't a color proof printer anyway. It will always be a subjective adjustment, not a proof.

I’m just trying to convert the values so that the perceptual colors stay the same during the transition from screen to machine.

Creating your own custom color profile is probably what you are asking for. There is software capable of doing this, but again. That's not a proof printer and chances are high that you won't be satisfied with the results, even with an individual printer profile that you probably need to apply within the workflow of a professional software RIP.

To get back to what you can do in practice.

You could try to follow some hints from Ricoh to get better results. Among other hints, if you didn't do it before, disable Toner Saving, adjust the color registration and make an Auto Color Calibration (that is a bit like creating a custom printer profile and use it without an additionally ripping app).

You could also try to use the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile instead of the Adobe RGB profile for your printing workflow. It has a smaller color range and might therefore fit better your needs. And it also can make a difference what app you use to print, because it might handle color management in a different way.

 

[MrCheeto]

You sound like you know your way around a Ricoh.

There is a color manager add-on module for these but considering we only need <100 copies of the documents made, it wouldn’t even be worth the service call.

I suppose I’m stuck just re-mastering every image for this project to match the specific printer. The worst part is that the printed images were looking very very good it’s just that the color shift is a little skewed so the grays were coming out brown and our whole project is about near-gray product representation. So close and yet…

 

[organicCPU]

I've never printed on a Ricoh. I use Lexmark and Xerox at work. If I need color accuracy I use external printing service providers. For small number of copies that can't go to offset, I'd probably prefer printing on a Xerox iGen or a HP Indigo, depending on what I need. Besides using professional workflows, I've some experience in utilizing low budget production facilities. That's why I'm trying to help you and had a look at the Ricoh website as well as the Ricoh ICC profile of the C8000 printer.

You could and should absolutely request a demo for the RICOH Auto Color Adjuster (see link at the bottom of the page). As prices aren't mentioned, it might be too costly to buy, but the demo period might help you to accomplish your recent print job with better results. A real job is always ideal for evaluation purposes. It won't meet industrial standards, though.

Besides the add-on, another setting you should have a look at is Changing Brightness and Color…. There are some options like Vivid and Deep that you should give a try.

The problem of gray appearing as brown, might have its origination from the wrong color separation method for your purpose. You can separate by under color removal (UCR) or grey component replacement (GCR). Your expectation should be better suited by the UCR separation method, as there is more black used, opposed to GCR, where cyan, magenta and yellow is primarily used to get gray tones printed. As the separation method is fix implemented in ICC profiles, the Ricoh ICC you use, might not be ideal for your task. Therefore as a last resort, you could play around with creating and editing your own UCR profile until it fits your needs. In Photoshop, you can define a > color settings > custom cmyk, that utilizes UCR and gives you less brown, but more grey. Save your custom profile and use that one for separating your RGB images. That is far from proofing colors, but sometimes it works best.

Finally, it can give you much better results, not to use the color management of your software package, but choose to use the in-printer color management. E.g. in Adobe Acrobat > Print > Advanced settings > Set Acrobat Color Management to Printer Color Management.

Good Luck!

 

[wonderings]

I've never printed on a Ricoh. I use Lexmark and Xerox at work. If I need color accuracy I use external printing service providers. For small number of copies that can't go to offset, I'd probably prefer printing on a Xerox iGen or a HP Indigo, depending on what I need. Besides using professional workflows, I've some experience in utilizing low budget production facilities. That's why I'm trying to help you and had a look at the Ricoh website as well as the Ricoh ICC profile of the C8000 printer.

Xerox has a wide range of digital presses that can give consistent colour prints. The Versant series are fantastic printers that are a quarter of the price of an iGen of Indigo. Nothing matches the print quality of an Indigo, at least in digital printing.

Does the Ricoh even have internal colour calibration? This is another variable. What you print today could not be what you print tomorrow based on various factors from the machine itself, to climate, humidity, etc. I wonder how much of it is actually worth you trying to make this happen on an office photocopier opposed to connecting with a local print shop and have them print what you are looking for.

 

[organicCPU]

Xerox has a wide range of digital presses that can give consistent colour prints. The Versant series are fantastic printers that are a quarter of the price of an iGen of Indigo. Nothing matches the print quality of an Indigo, at least in digital printing.

Yes, you are right, there are many options. I just gave two examples where one can expect a top-quality color management and regularly serviced printers for getting best results.

What you print today could not be what you print tomorrow based on various factors from the machine itself, to climate, humidity, etc.

I guess if one prints 50 copies, number 1 differs from number 50. The main reason is increasing heat generation during printing and therefore much difference of the machine's temperature. Agree in what you say, that's why color calibration and profiling is continuous work.

 

[MrCheeto]

Well I got access to a printer that supposedly is as good as it gets without something like sublimation or such.

The problem is simply how to walk-it-in to match closer to my display. Automatically.

My display is calibrated to D65. The printer must be printing somewhere about 4000k.

I took a Macbeth chart image in the same light box as the items I want to print. Once I applied the color chart corrections in Lightroom, the item in the light box looks ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL to the image of it on my iMac.

Then when I hit print, it goes south.

How do I automatically compensate the printer to make my print look like what’s in my light box?

The light box is measured with a 6429k white point. Display D65. Somehow I need to get all these things on the same page but it fails at point of printing. The white point and saturation just falls apart.

 

[wonderings]

Well I got access to a printer that supposedly is as good as it gets without something like sublimation or such.

The problem is simply how to walk-it-in to match closer to my display. Automatically.

My display is calibrated to D65. The printer must be printing somewhere about 4000k.

I took a Macbeth chart image in the same light box as the items I want to print. Once I applied the color chart corrections in Lightroom, the item in the light box looks ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL to the image of it on my iMac.

Then when I hit print, it goes south.

How do I automatically compensate the printer to make my print look like what’s in my light box?

The light box is measured with a 6429k white point. Display D65. Somehow I need to get all these things on the same page but it fails at point of printing. The white point and saturation just falls apart.

What printer are you using? Normally a printer will have a colour profile that you will match the monitor to. We use GRACoL for our wide format printers, so those are calibrated and brought to spec. If we were to calibrate it would be calibrating the monitors to the calibrated printer.

 

[MrCheeto]

I don’t actually know what printer but what I’m trying to avoid is manually having to adjust every picture again. I’d want to apply a profile and compensate for it all in one go.

Again, when you’re shooting a gun that is not sighted, you walk-it-in by aiming the opposite of where it’s hitting. If it’s 2” to the left, just aim 2” to the right and it will hit the bullseye.

If the colors are printing differently from the display, show the Mac what the printer spit out and to COMPENSATE (shift all the colors) so they DO match the display.

I printed a Macbeth chart with the printer. Is there any way that can help adjust the aim?

What’s the whitest stock I could expect to obtain? Anything close to 6400?

 

[wonderings]

I don’t actually know what printer but what I’m trying to avoid is manually having to adjust every picture again. I’d want to apply a profile and compensate for it all in one go.

Again, when you’re shooting a gun that is not sighted, you walk-it-in by aiming the opposite of where it’s hitting. If it’s 2” to the left, just aim 2” to the right and it will hit the bullseye.

If the colors are printing differently from the display, show the Mac what the printer spit out and to COMPENSATE (shift all the colors) so they DO match the display.

I printed a Macbeth chart with the printer. Is there any way that can help adjust the aim?

What’s the whitest stock I could expect to obtain? Anything close to 6400?

So the normal way is actually calibrating the monitor to the printer, not the printer to the monitor. You are fighting an uphill battle here. And seems even more difficult as you don't even know what you are using to print with. I have not worked with any shop or design house that calibrated the production equipment to the screen, always calibrate the screen to the printer, then adjust the files after that.

Your screen is going to show way more colours then the printer can ever hit, no matter if you are talking about a million dollar HP Indigo, or going offset, there are just things that will be out of range. So your sight that you should be adjusting in your gun analogy is the screen, not the printer. I have done a fair bit of colour matching for specific corporate colours, you do this on press by adjusting the CMYK values. The logo printing may have too much yellow or magenta, so you scale those back on the press itself for that specific colour.

 

[MrCheeto]

Sure I understand that now but is there an automatic way to compensate?

For instance, if I’m doing color photography in fluorescent lighting, I expect the image to appear green. I compensate by throwing a pink filter on the camera. It shifts the color the opposite direction that the lighting was shifting, thus the colors come out neutral.

Is there any such process in printing where I can tell my Mac “this is the Color checker chart that came out of my printer. Now adjust the colors in my image so the next chart I print is accurate”

 

[wonderings]

Sure I understand that now but is there an automatic way to compensate?

For instance, if I’m doing color photography in fluorescent lighting, I expect the image to appear green. I compensate by throwing a pink filter on the camera. It shifts the color the opposite direction that the lighting was shifting, thus the colors come out neutral.

Is there any such process in printing where I can tell my Mac “this is the Color checker chart that came out of my printer. Now adjust the colors in my image so the next chart I print is accurate”

There are tools for sure, it depends on how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go.

Are you using someone else's printer for this? Or you have access to work with a printer and calibrate as needed? If you have someone printing for you you are faced with another potential issue, how often do they calibrate their own printer to whatever profiles they are using? When I had my family business I calibrated at least twice a day, I have talked to people from other shops and their people might calibrate once a week, or even once a month. Very hard to maintain colour consistancy that way, and there are so many factors that effect printing, like temperature and humidity.

X-rite makes high end colour calibration tools, from spectrometers to software

i1Profiler Software | Learn About X-Rite Calibration & Profiling

Get the perfect balance of calibration automation with a full range of profiling options for creative color control. Learn about i1Profiler software.

www.xrite.com

You can even get into calibrating for backlit displays, the type of light, conditions, etc. There is so much, it all comes down to how much you are willing to play to calibrate and maintain that.