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aspenboy

macrumors member
Original poster
Jul 31, 2008
74
0
I have a unlocked iPhone that I'm using on AT&T's system without a data plan. When i'm out and about, and use google maps to find my location, it doesn't seem to be able to locate me. Is EDGE required to use the cell towers for the iphone to locate itself? I was thinking that since I am using AT&T and my phone has 5 bars in many locations, it could "see" the towers but use them to find the location, but it doesn't. I understand it shouldn't download the google maps, since that requires a data plan, but sometimes i've preloaded maps and it doesn't find the location on the loaded map.

Based upon my experience, I figure it won't work, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

thanks,
 
I have a unlocked iPhone that I'm using on AT&T's system without a data plan. When i'm out and about, and use google maps to find my location, it doesn't seem to be able to locate me. Is EDGE required to use the cell towers for the iphone to locate itself? I was thinking that since I am using AT&T and my phone has 5 bars in many locations, it could "see" the towers but use them to find the location, but it doesn't. I understand it shouldn't download the google maps, since that requires a data plan, but sometimes i've preloaded maps and it doesn't find the location on the loaded map.

Based upon my experience, I figure it won't work, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

thanks,

If you have an iPhone 3G then it's not fake GPS, it's real GPS. It has a GPS antenna in the phone.

A data connection is required to download the map data to the phone. Pre-cached maps can be used.
 
sorry I didn't make myself clear in the original post. I have an original iPhone (not 3G) and don't have an EDGE data plan. Just cellular access on the AT&T network and WIFI. When I'm on Google maps, I don't seem to be able to get a location for myself, even if I've precached a map of the area i'm in.
 
If you have an iPhone 3G then it's not fake GPS, it's real GPS. It has a GPS antenna in the phone.

In his/her defense, if the iPhone is unlocked, it's probably not 3G. ;)

I'm confused though about what you're doing... are you out using a WiFi connection? If you don't have EDGE availability and you're not on a WiFi access point, Google Maps should not be doing much for you. I haven't really tried tests like having it locate me when I'm on a map I've already downloaded and yet I've walked off the EDGE grid, but... yeah, I don't think you'll get anywhere this way.

It should be able to locate you off of WiFi, but again, unless you're also legitimately connected to that wifi so you can use it as a data source, how are you going to use Google Maps?
 
There is no GPS antennae inside the phone:rolleyes: The Iphone 3g has A-GPS (assisted) which goes off cell towers just like everything else on your phone.

I bet you $1000000 that your gps will not work if you put it in airplane mode:D
 
There is no GPS antennae inside the phone:rolleyes: The Iphone 3g has A-GPS (assisted) which goes off cell towers just like everything else on your phone.

I bet you $1000000 that your gps will not work if you put it in airplane mode:D

You're confusing two different things.

No, GPS won't work in airplane mode, but that's because airplane mode turns off all the radios and receivers in the phone.

But it IS real GPS. A-GPS is assisted by first using the cell towers to tell the GPS where to look (I'm not using the official terminology, but that's what it does), but GPS antenna does get information from satellites. It is "REAL."

In case you want to know what you're talking about, go here.
 
If you have a 1st generation iPhone, then the semi-gps-like feature built into google maps is entirely based on cellphone tower triangulation. In order for that to work, the phone needs to get a little bit of data from the tower (the tower knows where it's located, your phone doesn't). Without a data plan, you may not have a path to get that data. I can't say for sure, but it certainly seems probable that you won't get location services with your setup.

As for the 3G A-GPS phone, it does have a genuine GPS receiver (which is more than just an antenna). The A-GPS logic uses data from the cell tower to help speed up getting a lock, but it's perfectly capable of locating you when no towers are around. (Getting map data, on the other hand, require some form of net access.)
 
Hi,

I have this same issue as well... Was with a Mac Genius yesterday and they say it is a firmware issue and should be fixed in the next firmware update..|They went through a bunch of questions on where google maps (not locate me) works postcodes and when was last time it worked and sent it to the engineers..The genius also offered me a replacement if I wished to prove it is a firmware issue.

ren

ps:we even went outside and tried to locate our selves but to no luck ( he has a 1st gen iphone non 3G)
 
Hahaha. I love everyone rushed to defend their jesusphone 3G, when he wasn't even talking about it.

From what I've read - the iPhone does not use triangulation - a user from another forum named 'XFF' has a better explanation:

XFF said:
iPhone uses one of three methods to determine (or approximate) the user's location:

1. GSM Cell ID location lookup (available both in iPhone and iPhone 3G)
2. Wi-Fi MAC address location lookup (available both in iPhone and iPhone 3G)
3. A-GPS (available only in iPhone 3G)

Neither of these methods is based upon triangulation.

The first method is Cell ID location lookup, which works as follows: A GSM handset always communicates with exactly one sector of a base station, and each GSM sector in the world has a globally unique identifier, known as CGI (cell global identity). The CGI consists of 4 fields, the MCC (mobile country code), the MNC (mobile network code), the LAC (local area code), and the CID (cell ID). (Even though this method is usually called Cell ID-based location lookup, it actually requires the entire CGI, of which the CID is only one component.) So each GSM mobile is always tuned to exactly one serving sector, and part of the channel overhead messaging of that sector is to broadcast its CGI. (The iPhone displays each component of the CGI in the Field Test application under Cell Information.) When the user invokes the Locate Me feature, iPhone sends the CGI to the Google server, which then correlates it against its Cell ID database to retrieve a range of locations that previous users have reporting being at when connected to that same CGI. (A short writeup about this can be found here.) Since each sector covers a rather large area (depending on cell size, the radius of a serving sector can be anywhere from about 0.2 mi all the way up to 22 mi), the resulting location fix is only approximate. Note also that the mobile only reports the CGI of the one (and only) serving sector, so triangulation of the mobile's position is impossible, since that would require at least two known reference points (base stations).

Although CGI-based triangulation is actually possible when taking into account non-serving neighbor sectors (the positions of which are known to the subscriber's wireless carrier), receive signal strength (which can serve as an approximation for distance from the base station) and/or timing advance (which provides a much better approximation of distance from the base station), the iPhone and Google Maps app don't use any of these parameters and are hence unable to perform triangulation.

The second method is Wi-Fi MAC address based location lookup. It actually works quite similar to Cell ID location lookup. Each Wi-Fi base station (access point) is permanently provisioned with a globally unique MAC address which is constantly being broadcast as part of the 802.11 protocol stack. When the user initiates a Locate Me query and the iPhone is within Wi-Fi coverage, it will send the MAC address of the serving Wi-Fi base station to Skyhook Wireless, which has compiled a database of known Wi-Fi access points, their MAC addresses, and approximate location. If Skyhook finds a match for the MAC address provided, it will then return the approximate location of the base station. Since Wi-Fi base station radiation patterns are typically omni-directional (non sectored) and since the mobile cannot determine its distance from the base station, the position fix will actually return the location of the base station, not the location of the mobile. However, since Wi-Fi has a relatively small coverage area, the mobile is assumed to be in close proximity of the base station. Note that this method also does not fit the definition of triangulation, as only a single fixed reference point is available.

Due to the CDMA-based nature of the physical layer communication in 802.11b/g, the iPhone may actually see several Wi-Fi base stations simultaneously. It could conceivably provide the MAC addresses of all Wi-Fi base stations within range to Skyhook, and Skyhook could conceivably aggregate and consolidate the various positions of each base station that corresponds to a MAC address provided in the query, and therefore provide a fix based on several known reference points. I don't know if Skyhook has this capability and whether the iPhone software would be able to take advantage of it, but in any case even if it does, I would not call this triangulation, since an exact location fix of the mobile is still not possible. Referencing multiple Wi-Fi base stations merely positions the mobile into a smaller range of uncertainty, somewhere between (or around) those base stations, but without a distance or angle measurement, triangulation is still not possible...

In conclusion, the term "triangulation" should best be avoided in reference to the iPhone or any of its 3 location determination (or approximation) methods as it doesn't properly apply to any of them.

I hope this little memo will prove useful to some readers and help reduce the use of incorrect terminology throughout the iPhone forum.

So, since it seems to be relying on GSM signals, not necessarily GPRS or EDGE, theoretically you may not need a data plan to use Locate Me. HOWEVER, it would be useless without a data plan anyway as while the cellular signal may be sufficient to give your phone location data, without a data plan, google maps cannot load the maps and track your location.
 
Thanks for those who answered.

I think I had it already figured out, but thought it might be useful to get confirmation. For example, last weekend I went for a bikeride across san francisco. I precached maps of SF by scrolling around the city when I was at home (in the East Bay). So I could scroll around the map even when I wasn't connected to the internet (WIFI or EDGE). Occasionally, when I had WIFI access, google maps was able to locate me on the map. Since I don't have a data plan, it didn't work locating me when there was no WIFI around. The main question was whether or not having cellular access should be sufficient to locate me and the last response gave me the answer, that data not just cell phone access is required to send the tower ID to actually locate the phone on the map.

It'd be nice if I could get location data, without a data plan but I can get a contract-free data plan with my Pay as you Go plan from the TUAW post:
http://www.tuaw.com/2008/05/13/tuaw-hands-on-trying-out-the-20-month-contract-free-unlimited/
 
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