Question for Canon shooters who shoot RAW

[147798]

What do people use for a workflow to clean up the noise in their RAW shots. I'd especially love to hear from any G9 users, as it is particularly noisy compared to DSLR users, but I'd be glad to hear from anyone else.

Do you use the Canon utilities? Straight in Aperture? Lightroom? Does anyone bring it over into NoiseNinja? (I think you have to convert to tiff or jpeg first, though -- or can NN work w/RAW, and I'm missing something).

With my G9, noise is a constant issue, and I've just not got a good grasp on how to best clean it up.

Thanks for any tips!

 

[swiftaw]

If you are constantly getting noise, check your ISO setting, it may be too high.

 

[Optimus Rhyme]

I've only just purchased a DSLR recently, and have noticed that my photos don't have any noise in them at all. But your camera shouldn't have noise if you're shooting in RAW.

 

[147798]

All sensors have noise. Higher ISOs boost the gain, which boosts noise. If you have enough signal (i.e. light) coming in, it overrides the noise. A DSLR has a large sensor, and relatively larger pixels. Additionally, the opening through the lens can be made larger. So, a DSLR allows in more signal vs. the noise. That's why it's so much clearer. Also, RAW will always look noisier than jpeg, because RAW has no processing yet, so it shows up more of the noise. jpegs often have in-camera noise reduction.

The G9 has a high MP count compared to it's small sensor size (that's one reason why a G9 fits in your jacket pocket and a DSLR won't). So, each pixel must get in a LOT of signal (light) to override the noise inherent in all sensors. But, smaller pixels need more light than larger pixels to override the background noise.

The G9 is fantastic for a number of reasons, but exhibits high levels of noise even at ISO 200. I'm just not finding the right workflow to make adequate adjustments.

so...
What do people use for a workflow to clean up the noise in their RAW shots. I'd especially love to hear from any G9 users, as it is particularly noisy compared to DSLR users, but I'd be glad to hear from anyone else.

Do you use the Canon utilities? Straight in Aperture? Lightroom? Does anyone bring it over into NoiseNinja? (I think you have to convert to tiff or jpeg first, though -- or can NN work w/RAW, and I'm missing something).

With my G9, noise is a constant issue, and I've just not got a good grasp on how to best clean it up.

Thanks for any tips!

 

[Grimace]

RAW straight into Aperture. I've never used any noise reduction (haven't had much, even at ISO1600!) - just a bit of cleanup in Aperture.

 

[M@lew]

RAW to Lightroom. Use that to clean up noise but if it isn't enough I'll take the photo to Photoshop and use NoiseNinja.

 

[valdore]

I use Photoshop Camera RAW a lot - I'll do my tweaking to the RAW there, then hit Open Image and do whatever else, including running my shots through the Noiseware Standard plugin for Photoshop.

 

[147798]

RAW to Lightroom. Use that to clean up noise but if it isn't enough I'll take the photo to Lightroom and use NoiseNinja.

Am I correct in understanding that using NN w/in LR means exporting the pic as a tiff over to NN?

 

[147798]

I use Photoshop Camera RAW a lot - I'll do my tweaking to the RAW there, then hit Open Image and do whatever else, including running my shots through the Noiseware Standard plugin for Photoshop.

Does Photoshop Camera RAW come w/PS Elements? If not, can you buy PS Camera RAW separately, or do you have to get the whole of PS?

 

[valdore]

Does Photoshop Camera RAW come w/PS Elements? If not, can you buy PS Camera RAW separately, or do you have to get the whole of PS?

As far as I know it just comes with Photoshop CS3 Extended, although I don't know if it's possible to just have a plugin for Elements for it.

 

[Optimus Rhyme]

All sensors have noise. Higher ISOs boost the gain, which boosts noise. If you have enough signal (i.e. light) coming in, it overrides the noise. A DSLR has a large sensor, and relatively larger pixels. Additionally, the opening through the lens can be made larger. So, a DSLR allows in more signal vs. the noise. That's why it's so much clearer. Also, RAW will always look noisier than jpeg, because RAW has no processing yet, so it shows up more of the noise. jpegs often have in-camera noise reduction.

The G9 has a high MP count compared to it's small sensor size (that's one reason why a G9 fits in your jacket pocket and a DSLR won't). So, each pixel must get in a LOT of signal (light) to override the noise inherent in all sensors. But, smaller pixels need more light than larger pixels to override the background noise.

The G9 is fantastic for a number of reasons, but exhibits high levels of noise even at ISO 200. I'm just not finding the right workflow to make adequate adjustments.

so...
What do people use for a workflow to clean up the noise in their RAW shots. I'd especially love to hear from any G9 users, as it is particularly noisy compared to DSLR users, but I'd be glad to hear from anyone else.

Do you use the Canon utilities? Straight in Aperture? Lightroom? Does anyone bring it over into NoiseNinja? (I think you have to convert to tiff or jpeg first, though -- or can NN work w/RAW, and I'm missing something).

With my G9, noise is a constant issue, and I've just not got a good grasp on how to best clean it up.

Thanks for any tips!

I still don't quite understand how you're getting so much noise. Could you post a picture to show us an example?

I've shot pictures on my camera as high as ISO 1600 and found the noise levels to be still useable, down at 100 etc, it's not noticeable at all.

 

[M@lew]

Am I correct in understanding that using NN w/in LR means exporting the pic as a tiff over to NN?

That is correct. I apologise for not making it 100% clear so I'll change Lightroom -> Photoshop so it's more clear that you export it.

 

[147798]

I still don't quite understand how you're getting so much noise. Could you post a picture to show us an example?

I've shot pictures on my camera as high as ISO 1600 and found the noise levels to be still useable, down at 100 etc, it's not noticeable at all.

It might help to understand that the Canon G9 is a large point and shoot that does RAW. It is not a DSLR. The imaging sensor on a G9 is a fraction of that on a DSLR.

Here is a good tutorial on sensor size and how it impacs images. About 2/3 down, you'll see the bit about noise. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

You can also scroll down this review http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/canon/powershot_g9-review/ and see the G9's noise levels at comparative ISOs.

A d40 and a g9 are not the same camera. If a D40 and a G9 take the same exact shot with the same exact settings, unless it's full daylight in ISO 100 or less, the G9 will have more noise than the D40. However, I can put the G9 in my pocket! Something that's not so easy with a DSLR, unless I have REALLY big pockets.

 

[eXan]

I have the Canon PowerShot Pro1 (8MP non-DSLR) and the images are very noisy at anything higher than ISO100.

I shoot in JPEG though, because Aperture, iPhoto and even Preview cant open those CRW correctly - all images are very pink.

Canon's utilities that came on the CD with the camera open then correctly though, but those apps totally suck.

 

[Edge100]

...and now we begin to see the inherent benefits to a DSLR. That tiny sensor on P&S cameras can be really noisy even at (relatively) moderate ISOs.

Not saying a DSLR is for everyone, but this is one of the major advantages.

That said, no matter if you're shooting RAW or jpeg, Noise Ninja is a fantastic product. It will work wonders even on very noisy images (think ISO3200).

 

[ChrisA]

Does Photoshop Camera RAW come w/PS Elements? If not, can you buy PS Camera RAW separately, or do you have to get the whole of PS?

Quoted from the Adobe web site for Elements 6.0 (soon to be released)

Enjoy enhanced support for working with raw files (Enhanced)

Get the highest quality results by performing nondestructive editing on the raw image files from your digital camera. Now you can edit raw files from a greater selection of camera models; enjoy finer control over lighting and color adjustments; and save time by applying the same set of adjustments across multiple raw images simultaneously — you can even see batch-applied changes as they're made!

 

[147798]

Quoted from the Adobe web site for Elements 6.0 (soon to be released)

That's good news. I've got PSE6 on order.

I have NN, but there's something off. Maybe I don't really know how to use it, maybe my G9's noise is immune, but I whatever lever I pull, it doesn't impact the noise too much. I also think it's a little slow (at least, running as a standalone app -- not sure if the plug-in runs better)

 

[brad.c]

I would think noise is like insufficient resolution--any software solution is just approximating missing image data. My first digital still camera was the Canon Optura 200 MiniDV with a measly 1.3 mega pixels for stills shooting, and it would get a ton of noise in lower light situations. Any time spent in Photoshop/Lightroom would minimize the dazzling artefacts, but the resulting image wouldn't be very sharp or detailed.

But, as in all things, YMMV.

 

[Edge100]

I would think noise is like insufficient resolution--any software solution is just approximating missing image data. My first digital still camera was the Canon Optura 200 MiniDV with a measly 1.3 mega pixels for stills shooting, and it would get a ton of noise in lower light situations. Any time spent in Photoshop/Lightroom would minimize the dazzling artefacts, but the resulting image wouldn't be very sharp or detailed.

But, as in all things, YMMV.

ISO noise is caused by jacking up the gain in the sensor. The noise is always there, but at low ISO (i.e. when light is ample), the signal is so much higher than the noise (i.e. S/N ratio is very high) that you dont see it; the noise floor is not seen. But as you crank the gain in the sensor, you are increasing signal AND noise.

 

[brad.c]

ISO noise is caused by jacking up the gain in the sensor. The noise is always there, but at low ISO (i.e. when light is ample), the signal is so much higher than the noise (i.e. S/N ratio is very high) that you dont see it; the noise floor is not seen. But as you crank the gain in the sensor, you are increasing signal AND noise.

Yep, just like cranking the AM band in the boonies.

Thing is, once exposed, the noise IS the image. Just like taping the AM white noise. It's not like the pseudo tech TV shows, where the tape from a fuzzy security cam is enlarged, cleaned up, and the grey blur is now a perfectly legible license plate.

Sure, you will get some improvement via software, but the best fix is with new hardware. (Sorry, bking1000, but it's fun to spend your money. )

 

[Xfujinon]

I run everything through Canon Digital Photo Professional to make any corrections to the RAW images prior to converting them into .TIFFs. They then get stuffed into Photoshop CS2 where they get played with until I am satisfied. They are then saved as either .TIFFs or .JPEGs depending upon the use for the finished image (printing, web display, etc.).

People gripe about Canon's supplied software, but I have found it pretty handy. Everyone has their opinions, but I find the "batch process" features mighty handy when I am dealing with several hundred shots.