MP 1,1-5,1 Questions regarding upgrading CPU/RAM/FIRMWARE

[Peanutdust7]

I have an early 2009 8 core Mac Pro 4.1 (details attached) and I'm looking to make it quicker.

I've just installed 4x 4GB 1066MHZ DDR3 ECC RAM (My mac is ECC enabled) and I've left 4x 2GB ram in from before (they are all made by Kingston). I've also got the OS on an SSD. My geek bench score is single - 2302 and multi - 12956.

I recently found out I can upgrade my firmware from 4.1 to 5.1. If I upgrade firmware will my ram still work? and my graphics card/everything? I've read this is worth doing so you can upgrade to better hardware.

Also if I was to upgrade my CPU to Intel Xeon X5680 6 core 12MB Cache 3.33GHZ will it work well with the ram/everything else? Do I need to install firmware 5.1?

Thanks for your help and hope thats not too many questions! Any tips on how to speed this machine up whilst keeping the cost down would be great.

 

[JedNZ]

Check out the stickies at the head of this forum - everything is pretty much covered off in this post.

I recently found out I can upgrade my firmware from 4.1 to 5.1. If I upgrade firmware will my ram still work? and my graphics card/everything? I've read this is worth doing so you can upgrade to better hardware.

Yes - your ram is good for the 5,1 firmware upgrade. But you're best to continue the firmware upgrades through to 144.0.0.0.0 because it gives you other benefits - NVMe, updated microcodes etc.

Also if I was to upgrade my CPU to Intel Xeon X5680 6 core 12MB Cache 3.33GHZ will it work well with the ram/everything else? Do I need to install firmware 5.1?

Yes, you MUST upgrade the firmware to 5,1 first before you install/upgrade the CPUs to two X5680's. Just about to do the same when my latest cMP 4,1 arrives. I'll be doing the firmware, CPUs, GPU and other upgrades.

But check out the sticky above - it's an aggregate of all the wealth of experience, testing and know-how that this community brings together.

 

[h9826790]

If I upgrade firmware will my ram still work? and my graphics card/everything?

Will still work

Also if I was to upgrade my CPU to Intel Xeon X5680 6 core 12MB Cache 3.33GHZ will it work well with the ram/everything else? Do I need to install firmware 5.1?

Will work, but you MUST upgrade the firmware to 5,1 BEFORE you install the X5680.

 

[Peanutdust7]

Hi,

Firstly thanks a lot for your help! I've flashed to 5.1 and am looking to upgrade the processor/gpu still. I have more questions if that's ok! I've had a hunt though the stickies but I'm struggling to piece the info together.

Am I right in thinking I've wasted some money on ram that is too slow (1066mhz DDR3) if I install a fast processor?
Will it just run at the ram speed or will it boost my ram a bit?

Once I've installed a faster CPU than the stock GT120 will I then be able to insert bigger ram modules in the same stock daughter board?

In terms of graphics card I'd really like to run Mojave efficiently but I'm not sure what that would require as there seem to be so many variables. I have 2 cinema displays at 1680x1050 but maybe in a couple of years I might upgrade to a retina monitor. Do you have any recommendations for something that could cope well for that which isn't too expensive?

I'm a photographer/musician so I'd like to build a machine that could process hundreds of 75mb images as fast as possible. Also for it to cope with large psb photoshop files or logic projects with lots of plugins. Do you know roughly what spec I should aim for by any chance?

Also I googled 144.0.0.0.0 but couldn't find out what that is - Mojave?

 

[skizzo]

Hi,

Firstly thanks a lot for your help! I've flashed to 5.1 and am looking to upgrade the processor/gpu still. I have more questions if that's ok! I've had a hunt though the stickies but I'm struggling to piece the info together.

Am I right in thinking I've wasted some money on ram that is too slow (1066mhz DDR3) if I install a fast processor?
Will it just run at the ram speed or will it boost my ram a bit?

Once I've installed a faster CPU than the stock GT120 will I then be able to insert bigger ram modules in the same stock daughter board?

In terms of graphics card I'd really like to run Mojave efficiently but I'm not sure what that would require as there seem to be so many variables. I have 2 cinema displays at 1680x1050 but maybe in a couple of years I might upgrade to a retina monitor. Do you have any recommendations for something that could cope well for that which isn't too expensive?

I'm a photographer/musician so I'd like to build a machine that could process hundreds of 75mb images as fast as possible. Also for it to cope with large psb photoshop files or logic projects with lots of plugins. Do you know roughly what spec I should aim for by any chance?

Also I googled 144.0.0.0.0 but couldn't find out what that is - Mojave?

1066Mhz ram will still run at 1066Mhz despite the CPU change. If you purchased 1333Mhz ram (the fastest these systems can run) you likely wouldn't notice much of a real world difference unless you were already at your usage ceiling

Whether upgrading CPU or GPU you still have same limitations on individual DIMM size. Id stick with 16GB or lower. 32GB ones work but have a few caveats. On the other hand, your TOTAL amount of max ram can change dependent on what CPU is installed. For single CPU it is the difference of I think 56GB compared to 64GB.

If you don't need GPU horsepower for games or more intensive video and photo work flows then an RX560 is probably the cheapest GPU on the market that supports Mojave with METAL capable GPU. Otherwise RX580 is sort of the standard recommendation

The 144 number you referenced to is a particular version of the cMP "boot rom". you must be somewhat familiar with this if you already flashed to 5,1 because that process updates/changes the boot rom

 

[kohlson]

I have an upgraded 4/5,1, with X5680 and RX580. Updated memory, too. Note that the Geekbench score is 3124/14435

Don't get crazy about the exact score - these things tend to float a bit. Also, I have all 4 memory slots filled, which decreases the score a little bit. I submit it here to show an approximation of how much headroom you have.

While you could get a shorthand here on how to proceed with upgrading, but there are plenty of "gotchas" along the way. And your workflow requirements may differ. Best to take them one at a time, and read up on it, execute, and then onto the next. I would start with the relevant sticky threads at the beginning of the forum.

The easiest upgrade is an SSD. Pay attention to the "special" CPU requirements for 2009 model dual-CPU systems. Get a pdf copy of the 2009 Mac Pro Technician Guide (google).

 

[Peanutdust7]

RX560 is probably the cheapest

Which radeon RX560 do you mean? Theres lots of models on the site https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/radeon-rx-560

Also, I have all 4 memory slots filled, which decreases the score a little bit

As in RAM slots? Are you supposed to leave some empty for speed?

The easiest upgrade is an SSD

I currently have the OS on a Crucial MX200 1TB SSD - Should I be upgrading this for speed?

I've read about RAID 0 - Do you think it's worth doing that?

I have a late 2013 MacBook Pro with 16GB ram and an i7-4850HQ and I was hoping I could upgrade the Mac Pro 5.1 to faster than that. Currently the MacBook is 4139/14566 - would I have to spend a lot to beat that?

Sorry if these questions are a bit dumb, I'm barely keeping up but I'm keen to learn. I've been reading articles from all over and many seem conflicting

 

[skizzo]

Which radeon RX560 do you mean? Theres lots of models on the site https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/radeon-rx-560

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208898

the only one Apple specifically calls our for recommendation is MSI Gaming Radeon RX 560 128-bit 4GB GDRR5
However, I am sure there are several more variants that are compatible. There is a very extensive GPU compatibility thread sticky that likely has users feedback on other RX560 models that work just fine.

As in RAM slots? Are you supposed to leave some empty for speed?

You do not need to leave any open, all can be filled if you need the total capacity. But the CPUs are triple channel so if you use 3 DIMMs (leaving the 4th slot open, and 8th slot open if you have dual CPU system) means it activates this triple channel function which basically allows it perform at its most optimal speeds

I currently have the OS on a Crucial MX200 1TB SSD - Should I be upgrading this for speed?

I've read about RAID 0 - Do you think it's worth doing that?

I have a late 2013 MacBook Pro with 16GB ram and an i7-4850HQ and I was hoping I could upgrade the Mac Pro 5.1 to faster than that. Currently the MacBook is 4139/14566 - would I have to spend a lot to beat that?

Sorry if these questions are a bit dumb, I'm barely keeping up but I'm keen to learn. I've been reading articles from all over and many seem conflicting

The best single core score of a cMP will never beat that 4139 score of your MacBook. That 3100 single core score for cMP with X5690 is pretty standard. Multi core scores are pretty much equal, cMP comes slightly over. Dual CPU cMP will go into 22,000+ with proper configurations for multi core.

 

[Peanutdust7]

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208898

the only one Apple specifically calls our for recommendation is MSI Gaming Radeon RX 560 128-bit 4GB GDRR5
However, I am sure there are several more variants that are compatible. There is a very extensive GPU compatibility thread sticky that likely has users feedback on other RX560 models that work just fine.

Will using a DDR5 mean I'll have to buy new ram? Mines DDR3

You do not need to leave any open, all can be filled if you need the total capacity. But the CPUs are triple channel so if you use 3 DIMMs (leaving the 4th slot open, and 8th slot open if you have dual CPU system) means it activates this triple channel function which basically allows it perform at its most optimal speeds

Thats great to know, thanks


The best single core score of a cMP will never beat that 4139 score of your MacBook. That 3100 single core score for cMP with X5690 is pretty standard. Multi core scores are pretty much equal, cMP comes slightly over. Dual CPU cMP will go into 22,000+ with proper configurations for multi core.

When you say proper config do you mean a good hardware set up in general? Or do I need to tune everything individually?

 

[kohlson]

Or do I need to tune everything individually?

This is the main thing. It all depends on what you want to do. If you want video, then a nice 580 or Vega 56 GPU would be helpful. Is your workflow held back by IOPS or other disk performance metrics? The a PCIe/NVMe SSD (and perhaps RAID) may be helpful. You might be able to squeeze another 10% or so of improved throughput with 1333 RAM using only 3 slots, but you may need maximum memory.

IMHO, the best thing about the cMP is how you can adjust it for different workflows. A friend has a 2012 dual CPU, and we upgraded to RX580, x5680s, and NVME. Using the AMD hardware hack, we got well over 500 fps on ripping a movie in Handbrake.

All this is well and good, but it depends on what you want to do. If the answer is "top bragging rights" then I suggest reading all the sticky threads - which will get you there in fully-informed style.

 

[Peanutdust7]

All this is well and good, but it depends on what you want to do. If the answer is "top bragging rights" then I suggest reading all the sticky threads - which will get you there in fully-informed style.[/QUOTE]

No I'm not into bragging, I just need a fast machine I can work with that is going to enable me to get large quantities of images and music retouched/made and delivered as fast as possible for the least amount of cash. I won't be gaming or doing anything like big 3D renders etc. I think 15gb .psb files are the the most demanding thing or processing images through Capture One.

If I get a DDR5 GPU will I have to buy new ram? My ram is currently DDR3. I've read its not related but I'd like to double check with you guys.

I think I've found some good deals so if I got an RX 580 and 2x Xeon X5680 which should I get first? GPU or CPU?
I won't be able to afford all at the same time and want to avoid a bottleneck if possible.

Also what's the difference between MSI, Sapphire, PowerColour etc? Are they all the same Radeon RX but just released with different brands?

 

[kohlson]

Here's what I did in order, and rationale. Mine is mainly used for FCPX.
- SSD because that made a noticeable difference in booting and overall feel of performance
- 32 GB memory, because I had the original 4x2GB. I knew at this point I was going to Westmere/X5680, and would need faster memory, too.
- CPU from 4x2.93 original to 6x3.33. Essentially no difference in feel of performance. But despite slower Geekbench scores than my 2013 15-MBP, the cMP now was faster at Handbrake and Compressor and many other areas of FCPX workflow.
- RX580, because this was the Apple supported way to Mojave, and the 2xGT120s I had were useless for modern computing. Note that this was later in the cycle because 18 months ago the mining craze drove the price to $500-600. I had hoped the RX580 would paint thumbnails faster in the FCPX timeline, but it doesn't seem much faster, if any, than the GT120s. I got the Apple recommended Sapphire Pulse - for awhile that seemed to matter but now it seems that more brands work.
- PCIe NVMe, because they're fast and 1TB is pretty affordable now. It's fast.

 

[naerct]

I think the OP is getting bad information. First of all, none of cMPs for single core speeds got above 1000, and Geekbench is essentially CPU + RAM, and none of the bootROM upgrades have changed that. I have both a 4-core and an 8-core (now a 12-core) and you should really pick up the cMP upgrade guide and read it. The fastest RAM on these only use 3 for single processor or 6 for a dual processor. You should be getting 3 identical DIMMs for each processor, in the first 3 slots. However, if you go to a CPU upgrade to a 3+GHz CPU(s), you may have problems with the 1066RAM not being able to keep up. I would recommend 48GB, unless you are doing 4K or uncompressed video. This RAM is DDR3 and that can't change. Get 3 16GB DIMMs for a single processor or 6 8GB DIMMs for a dual processor. This RAM is fine used or new, and about $175 for new and $125 for used. (3, 16GB units) The reason that people are getting the RX 580 is that it comes with 8GB of VRAM which is two generations faster (DDR5 as you noticed) These tools like openCL is what is being used by Adobe Photoshop to speed up the most difficult tasks. While openCL is being replaced by "Metal", using fast GPUs with lots of VRAM is the way to go for the cMP. I saw one on eBay today for $100. There are a bunch of companies that market the RX 580 with all sorts of configurations for VRAM and number and type of connections. I bought the Gigabyte one because the AMD one has oversized fans that constrain space for your PCI slot 2 which is the only other 16X slot. As for all the other brands, I believe most will work, but none of the have the BOOT SWITCH Apple EFI, they are all the same as the Windows units. I got mine new for $180 from New Egg. They are slightly different now, but the only difference I saw was the number and types of connectors. Don't get the 4GB units.

I upgraded the CPUs on the dual processor, but haven't done the CPU or RAM on the 4-core. You should also know that while upgrade to bootROM 144 is on the Mojave upgrade, you can use its features for Sierra, High Sierra and Mojave (but nothing before Sierra). I see you are asking which one to buy first. If you need to go to Mojave, you need to get the GPU first so you can upgrade to Mojave. I could even be more important for speed.

Now the worst recommendations I saw were for using SATA SSDs for a boot drive. They have a speed limit of 300MB/s in a cMP drive or optical bay, not much faster than spindles. You can get up to 600MB/s with a PCI card for a SATA SSD. But, the biggest thing that bootROM 144.0.0 did was provide boot ability for NVMe drives which have replaced SATA SSDs in almost all other Macs. Now, because the cMPs are all PCI 2.0, the NVMe SSDs get around 1500MB/s reads from a Samsung 970 EVO. However, with a little PCI card that uses bifurcation and can convert the 16X PCI 2.0 slots to 8X PCI 3.0 slots, so the 970 EVO gets 2800MB/s reads and about 2400MB/s writes. That I/O Crest or Syba card also holds two of the NVMe blades with a fan and heatsink and only one slot. There are other devices as well like the Syba, but more expensive. I have an older 960 in the second slot and it's about 15-20% slower. Still a lot faster than any SATA unRAIDed drive. And by the way, in Mojave, RAIDs are no longer useable as the boot drive.
So, please get the upgrade guide, as all the equipment I use has been reviewed by the author. The only other upgrade I would make is the USB. USB2 is just way to slow, but USB3 is not very good either. Also USB3.1 gen1 is the same as USB3, so don't get that. USB3.1 gen2 is as fast as any bus on the PCI 2.0 motherboard. I would recommend either the 4-port type-A, dual controlled unit for about $85, but if you are using USB for many external drives, you can get the 4 port/4 controller for about $150. Whatever unit you get, the PCI USB is NOT bootable. I use all my old SATA SSDs bare bones with a Sabrient cable to the unit, so I don't need cases or enclosures. It goes really fast to clone a boot drive, but when I want to test the clone, I have to boot it from an onboard USB, and it takes forever...
To sum up. Get the Gigabyte RX 580 with 8GB DDR5 VRAM. Do the bootROM. Get your new CPU and get new or USED 1333GHz RAM. It's now a monster.
One More Thing. If you don't like being left forever in Mojave, you can find a thread call OpenCore on the cMP. I did the basic install, and now have a boot picker with a dual boot of Mojave or Catalina.

 

[jvlfilms]

I’ve done a massive upgrade recently too: took a 4,1 with a Radeon 4870 and 2 quad core X5570 and now have a 5,1 firmware RX 580, dual X5675 processors and 96GB of 1333 RAM in triple channel mode. I honestly couldn’t recommend it enough. I’m now dual booting into Windows 10, playing some light games. My goal is to test FCP/Premiere and see how it runs comparatively to my MBP.

The two things I need to look into are a NVMe drive instead of a PCIE SSD I currently use. But I need to read more about it before I invest a lot of money into a drive that I may not fully use anyway.

I’m currently having an issue with my Inateck 4 port USB 3.0 card but my SanDisk SSDs don’t seem to be recognized whenever I plug them in. Going to hopefully do some testing next week.

Overall, read the stickied upgrade guide and do what upgrades you find necessary for your workflow. But once you do the firmware upgrade it’ll open a bunch of possibilities for the longevity of the cMP.

 

[naerct]

Nice job on your conversion to OpenCore. I have the answer to your questions, or I think I do. I think you can limit your search to one blade, the Samsung 970. There are currently 3 types available. The EVO, while still available, to save a few $ at slightly less speed than the EVO+. The EVO+ didn't work in the cMP until the firmware update, but now it's the fastest version. There is also the PRO which is the most long lasting version at similar speeds for significantly more money. If there are better blades, I'd like to know. As for your USB3, no PCI USB that I know of can be used for booting, only non-booting drives. You need to plug into the the USB2 on the chassis. I fixed this by using eSATA3 connections which are as fast as SATA can be (<600MB/s without RAIDs). I have two cables, one for SATA and one for USB. The Sabrient USB cable goes into the USB3 port and has a powered SATA connector, so you don't need an enclosure for the external bus powered drive. The other cable is similar, but plugs into an eSATA connection from a PCI card and any USB for the power. The only down side is that bare bones drives must be protected without a metal enclosure around it. I just use antistatic bags that the drives ship with and then store them in a metal drawer. If you have to return your USB3 card, I'd recommend a 4-port USB 3.1 gen2 card. If you want the fast speeds on multiple externals, you have choices. I use the $90 Vantec card (https://www.vantecusa.com/products_...s+USB+3.1+Gen+2+PCIe+Host+Card+(OEM)&pc_id=33 )
with 4 type A ports sharing 2 SATA channels, since I rarely need the gen2 speeds. I have a friend who switched over to 2 USB 3.1 gen2 backups which are always on, so he got the $150 High Point card that has a separate SATA channel for each port. It looks like the Vantec is currently unavailable as someone has a used one of over $100 on eBay... ?

 

[Peanutdust7]

Thanks for all your help everyone! I appreciate all the time and advice you've given me. The CPU swap went smooth as it could possibly go ?