Has anyone tried repasting the 14" Max to ensure the system doesn't throttle so excessively. I have been seeing many videos indicating the 14" Max is the worst performer out of the bunch due to thermals and Apple really gimping the GPU and wattage the chip can utilize.
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Repaste 14" MAx?
- Thread starter Newfiejudd
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Is it really throttling that much though???
We are talking about 90W being produced concentrated in one tiny spot. That’s way more than any other MBP, which probably max out at 45W, in two different spots.
Considering the Max seems capable of pushing 90W through such a small bottleneck with only minor throttling, I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple are using solder.
EDIT: Alternatively, if it is soldered, and depending on the internal construction, you might be better off sacrificing your lap by putting thermal pads in somewhere to push heat out through the bottom case.
We are talking about 90W being produced concentrated in one tiny spot. That’s way more than any other MBP, which probably max out at 45W, in two different spots.
Considering the Max seems capable of pushing 90W through such a small bottleneck with only minor throttling, I wouldn’t be surprised if Apple are using solder.
EDIT: Alternatively, if it is soldered, and depending on the internal construction, you might be better off sacrificing your lap by putting thermal pads in somewhere to push heat out through the bottom case.
I don't think it's a good idea. Apple has gotten better with their thermal paste in the newer models. My old 2016 MBP 15" had some hard white stuff which wasn't even "paste" and on that 2.9GHz furnace. I saved 10C but got no performance boost after replacing the thermal paste, it just ran a little quieter. The M1 Max runs no where near as hot as my old CPU, so it's going to be a waste of time. Those videos you saw are only if you run it at 100% load for a long time, so keep that in mind. If I needed at 14" model I would still get the MAX and not worry about it. I have the 16" model.
I have the 14" Max but compared to the 16" it is severely gimped when it comes to the GPU side of things. Lower clocks and it does throttle much quicker. We have the 14" Max and Pro in the house although no 16" to compare with.
I'd leave well alone. Majority of Mac notebook's cooling issues are/were related to physical space constraint, inadequate design of the cooling system, CPU's with significant power draw versus performance and Apple's clear decision to prioritise quiet operation.
There's also a lot of variables to take into account with the paste; some is unsuitable for notebooks as it can migrate. Some has very specific temperature ranges and can break down at high temps (80C +). Some paste also needs to be replaced periodically.
This MBP has never been repasted and runs the same as it ever has. IMO the greater difference in temps with older Mac's is the cooling system being cleaned out, rather than the actual re-paste.
Trade off for the greater portability of the 14" versus the 16" MBP is lesser performance/battery life more so with the Max, dependant on use...
Q-6
There's also a lot of variables to take into account with the paste; some is unsuitable for notebooks as it can migrate. Some has very specific temperature ranges and can break down at high temps (80C +). Some paste also needs to be replaced periodically.
This MBP has never been repasted and runs the same as it ever has. IMO the greater difference in temps with older Mac's is the cooling system being cleaned out, rather than the actual re-paste.
Trade off for the greater portability of the 14" versus the 16" MBP is lesser performance/battery life more so with the Max, dependant on use...
Q-6
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What are you using it for that’s it’s throttling so much? Also to prove it’s throttling you should run your fans at 100% and do whatever you’re using it for. See if it actually throttles vs apple giving a lower clock speed.
I've had massive efficiency increases in cooling by repasting my previous MBP's. It was just a thought as the current 14" Max GPU is already clocked 200 MHz slower than the 16", and throttles very quickly to the point that the 24 core GPU in the 16" keeps pace with the 14" Max in most scenarios. The 16" GPU is on average 15-20% better in most real world scenarios from what I have been reading. So in the 14" Chasis the Max is really the best option, you would be better off with the Pro possibly.
Even if we can repaste it. I've heard that since the SOC itself and the ram isn't really level. The thermal paste won't really cool down the ram chips. It's also prob why the thermal paste is pretty thick on there. It might be conducting good heat too for the rams
I've had a good few MBP's and never bothered. The 2011 15" came back to me after being cleaned up is fine, actually better now likely thx to FW updates. Yes it does throttle, however not by a significant margin. Apple's cooling philosophy is pretty much cast in stone over the years.
Same as another member I think that the fans may just spool up less, however performance will be basically the same as that's how Apple has implemented the FW. Have you looked at the SOC temperature? If it's not hitting the maximum limit, your not likely to gain much if anything.
I have a 13" M1 MBP which fine for my purposes. If I wanted/needed to replace I would certainly look at the new 14" 10 core MBP, however not the Max as TBH I don't need the performance. If I did I'd opt for the 16" As ever much depends on the usage as the Max doesn't seem universally faster, although is clearly much faster in some specific workflows/workloads.
I tend to remain the same that repasting is not going bring a significant difference as I doubt Apple opts for the worst thermal paste and very likely focuses on longevity. I also think if the thermal paste was of poor quality one would also observe a similar tendency with the 16" to a lesser extent.
Bottom line to me is if Apple is reducing the GPU core clock speed on the 14" the cooling system is not able to keep up. At the end of the day it's a lot of performance in a relatively small chassis...
Q-6
I would agree with much of this. Although there has been several videos showing just how much the 14" is severely gimped in comparison to the 16". I will try a fan controller and see if it will throttle on some benchmarks. So far this has been a great upgrade over my previous unit. Wife is extremely happy with her as well.
Do you really want to attempt something like this on a new Mac still under warranty?
Doing so will surely void the warranty.
If you break something while inside, you're going to pay, and pay a lot.
Doing so will surely void the warranty.
If you break something while inside, you're going to pay, and pay a lot.
One day I'll be brave enough to do it. I did some pretty extensive testing with fan control and gaming (to sustain the CPU and GPU usage much more intensively than bursty video or photo editing or exporting). Seems that the 14in 32 GPU M1 Max gains about 10-15% FPS when maxing out the fans manually or setting a different fan curve compared to system controlled, at least until the default fan kicks in at 100%. It seems that only happens not when the core temperature is high - the default behavior seems to down clock to around 2500MHz (3228MHz max) and GPU to ~800MHz (1296MHz max), but rather when the average temp is up higher (e.g. when battery temp is gets to something like 34-35C). So based on default behavior, it underclocks and underperforms until the rest of the chassis heats up.
However if the ambient temperature is relatively low, this may never happen, and the Macbook would keep the fan at 50-70% and downclock everything to keep the SOC temperature around 90. I think this is because the rest of the machine is relatively well isolated thermally from the SOC, and so cools off by just radiating from the chassis rather than by the air intake. When the ambient temperature is higher it's harder for the battery to cool off from the chassis so the fans then kick on despite the SOC staying around the same temperature (seems to be around 90-92 for target temp).
Turning the fan to max manually stablizes the temperature around 90-92C for the CPU and around 88-90C for the GPU, but underclocks less at 2700-2800MHz for CPU and 870-890MHz for GPU, which translates to about a 10-15% improvement in FPS. Core differential seems only around 4-5C between the min/max of the CPU cores, so I don't think the stock application of the thermal paste itself is problematic. I think there is probably some performance to be gained by repasting with something like liquid metal for probably around 10-15% performance gain under sustained stress but I'm too chicken to be the first one to do it...
All of this started when I noticed the weird stock fan behaviors. E.g. Performance DECREASED when placed on a laptop cooler, or fans remained on max for minutes after SOC temps were sitting in the 50s, and other times would not go above 60-70% even when SOC was in the mid 90s etc... Certainly seems like Apple is optimizing the laptop for a certain kind of workflow and not others.
However if the ambient temperature is relatively low, this may never happen, and the Macbook would keep the fan at 50-70% and downclock everything to keep the SOC temperature around 90. I think this is because the rest of the machine is relatively well isolated thermally from the SOC, and so cools off by just radiating from the chassis rather than by the air intake. When the ambient temperature is higher it's harder for the battery to cool off from the chassis so the fans then kick on despite the SOC staying around the same temperature (seems to be around 90-92 for target temp).
Turning the fan to max manually stablizes the temperature around 90-92C for the CPU and around 88-90C for the GPU, but underclocks less at 2700-2800MHz for CPU and 870-890MHz for GPU, which translates to about a 10-15% improvement in FPS. Core differential seems only around 4-5C between the min/max of the CPU cores, so I don't think the stock application of the thermal paste itself is problematic. I think there is probably some performance to be gained by repasting with something like liquid metal for probably around 10-15% performance gain under sustained stress but I'm too chicken to be the first one to do it...
All of this started when I noticed the weird stock fan behaviors. E.g. Performance DECREASED when placed on a laptop cooler, or fans remained on max for minutes after SOC temps were sitting in the 50s, and other times would not go above 60-70% even when SOC was in the mid 90s etc... Certainly seems like Apple is optimizing the laptop for a certain kind of workflow and not others.
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Thermal pads are a safer bet.
yeah you have to take out the entire logic board to get the heatsink off. Horrible design choice.
Its all relative though right?
The 14" still performs very well, but there's got to be a slight trade-off compared to the 16" due to the chassis size and the fact nobody wants to go back to the days of Intel where you end up with the fans blowing on max and the chassis hot to touch.
It's a pretty big decrease in CPU/GPU frequencies to be honest. Some people have seen as much as 25% in certain applications. That's a little more than a slight "trade-off".
Get a fan control app and ramp up fan speed. This will prevent throttling.
It's a smaller chassis with the same high power components and that matters. Apple can accomplish many things, bending the laws of thermodynamics still on the wish list.
I doubt Apple has deliberately gimped the 14" MBP as it's not in it's own interests. Such factors are simply not linear, want the additional performance return the 14" and go with a 16" Max. Alternatively as suggested crank the fans up to 100%, Apple wont do that as that's not their style...
Q-6
Do you know anyone that tested this if it ACTUALLY makes a difference?
I did both thermal pads and repaste in my old macbook 2015 and saw big improvements. I am just afraid that placement of pads will create more air stoppage than actual heat desipation.
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