running older mac systems... in bubble?

[wfriedwald]

I have no experience with this, even conceptually, so please forgive my ignorance!

I have a couple of programs that are not going to be updated (apparently) and they will NOT run on Sonoma.

Is there any way to somehow run an earlier version of Mac (Ventura?) in a shell of some kind on Sonoma, and run them within that shell?

Thanks for any suggestions!

W

 

[Bigwaff]

Is there any way to somehow run an earlier version of Mac (Ventura?) in a shell of some kind on Sonoma

Yes. You can install Ventura in a virtual machine on Intel or Apple Silicon Macs. Google is your friend.

 

[wfriedwald]

thank you! I looked up
"how to install ventura in a virtual machine on a macbook m1 air sonoma os"
on google
and it seems to recommend VIRTUALBOX - a program I am not familiar with.

Do you have any specific recommendations? Something that you have actually used and works for you?

Thanks again for your feedback!

w

 

[wfriedwald]

and yes, I tried installing VIRTUALBOX, and it doesn't seem to work for me ... I thought this version was for both Intel & Silicon Macs? (at least that's what it said!)

 

[chabig]

Try Viable.

Virtualisation on Apple silicon

Viable – create and run macOS virtual machines on Apple silicon Macs Takes an IPSW image, available from Apple or downloaded in the app, and creates a virtual machine from it. Runs those virt…

eclecticlight.co

 

[Brian33]

I wouldn't use VirtualBox for your situation (although I do use it occasionally). It is pretty finicky to set up, not so easy to use.

Anyway, there is a newer "lightweight" virtualization feature that Apple introduced on Monterey and newer on M-series Macs. The apple-provided framework reportedly makes it easy to create apps for VMs and they have very good performance. I haven't used it yet but what I've read is very positive. However, there is one major limitation to "lightweight virtualization": within the virtual machine (in your case, Ventura), you cannot connect to an Apple ID. That means most (all?) Mac App Store apps will be unavailable, and you can't connect to iCloud, etc.

If that is acceptable I recommend trying the new virtualization. I know there are several "apps" to provide it. One, free from a blogger that I respect is here: https://eclecticlight.co/virtualisation-on-apple-silicon/

Here's some background info: https://eclecticlight.co/2022/11/17/lightweight-virtualisation-in-ventura/
https://eclecticlight.co/2023/12/29/why-are-apple-silicon-vms-so-different/

One I've heard of is VirtualBuddy: https://github.com/insidegui/VirtualBuddy

I think there are a few more.

 

[gilby101]

I have a couple of programs that are not going to be updated (apparently) and they will NOT run on Sonoma.

What apps? It might be simpler to migrate to more modern apps rather then learn how to use virtual machines.

Is there any way to somehow run an earlier version of Mac (Ventura?) in a shell of some kind on Sonoma, and run them within that shell?

Yes, virtual machines can run older macOS inside macOS.

There is a big difference depending on your Mac's architecture. Is your Mac using Apple silicon (Mx SoC)? or Intel?

Apple silicon: Use one of the apps (free or paid) which can create macOS virtual machines using Apple's lightweight virtualisation. Free: VirtualBuddy. Paid: Parallels. Note there are restrictions on software inside the virtual machine - no iCloud.

Intel: VMware Fusion (free for home use) or Parallels (paid). Virtual Box is free, but difficult to use - not recommended.

 

[Rastafabi]

I‘d recommend VirtualBuddy, 'cause it’s very easy to use, and you seem to be quite inexperienced.

 

[zgagato]

I‘d recommend VirtualBuddy, 'cause it’s very easy to use, and you seem to be quite inexperienced.

Can I run Sonoma un it if my host mac m2 pro has only ventura?

 

[Bigwaff]

Can I run Sonoma un it if my host mac m2 pro has only ventura?

Normally, no. But there is a way. Read the Virtual Buddy product web site.

 

[ignatius345]

If running a virtual machine proves to be too limiting or adds too many complications (and assuming the software you need is important enough to warrant all the added bother) I would add a weird wildcard solution.

Go onto eBay or something and buy an inexpensive older Mac that can run the OS you need -- and then use Screen Sharing (built-in feature, easy to set up and use) to put the screen of that Mac onto the screen of your regular Mac that's running Sonoma.

The experience would be a lot like a virtual machine, but powered by an actual Intel Mac parked somewhere out of sight. Could be in a closet somewhere, even.

 

[FreakinEurekan]

I have no experience with this, even conceptually, so please forgive my ignorance!

I have a couple of programs that are not going to be updated (apparently) and they will NOT run on Sonoma.

Is there any way to somehow run an earlier version of Mac (Ventura?) in a shell of some kind on Sonoma, and run them within that shell?

Thanks for any suggestions!

W

My advice - if a program is orphaned by its developers, replace it. Otherwise you’re forever saddled with keeping it running on progressive updates.

 

[lupinglade]

VMTek will do it perfectly. Full disclosure: I am the developer. It is currently 60% off as well.

 

[MacHeritage]

My advice - if a program is orphaned by its developers, replace it. Otherwise you’re forever saddled with keeping it running on progressive updates.

I wish that was always possible but sometimes that isn't an option. I have lots of those Mac apps (and tons of games of course), so an older Mac is a must that can run 10.14 or 10.13.

 

[za9ra22]

My advice - if a program is orphaned by its developers, replace it. Otherwise you’re forever saddled with keeping it running on progressive updates.

I think that's pretty sound advice in general, but in a virtual machine, not entirely the case. For example (albeit a bit more extreme than the OP appears to be suggesting) I use PageMaker, Quark Express, ClarisWorks and Hypercard in a virtual MacOS 7.6 system using Basilisk II on my M1 and M3 MBAs, and as long as Basilisk itself remains supported, the old software is perfectly reliable in use.

I would strongly urge that any no longer supported software which reaches out anywhere at all on the internet is decommissioned of course, whether in a host or VM environment.

 

[throAU]

I have no experience with this, even conceptually, so please forgive my ignorance!

I have a couple of programs that are not going to be updated (apparently) and they will NOT run on Sonoma.

Is there any way to somehow run an earlier version of Mac (Ventura?) in a shell of some kind on Sonoma, and run them within that shell?

Thanks for any suggestions!

W

You can virtualize anything Snow Leopard or later on Mac hardware totally legally.

You can technically virtualize Leopard and earlier but it is contravening the macOS software license. Unless it is macOS server.

You can also run macOS 9 in UTM from the UTM gallery.

 

[gilby101]

You can virtualize anything Snow Leopard or later on Mac hardware totally legally.

Snow Leopard legality: It can be done (I run Snow with VMware Fusion), but it is not allowed under Snow's EULA. Only allowed for SL Server. There is a long thread somewhere about doing this without a server license.

You can technically virtualize Leopard and earlier but it is contravening the macOS software license. Unless it is macOS server.

I didn't know that was possible. Can't really imagine why someone would want Leopard when Snow can do the same and more/better.

 

[throAU]

Snow Leopard legality: It can be done (I run Snow with VMware Fusion), but it is not allowed under Snow's EULA. Only allowed for SL Server. There is a long thread somewhere about doing this without a server license.

I didn't know that was possible. Can't really imagine why someone would want Leopard when Snow can do the same and more/better.

You're right snow leopard has to be server, lion is possible as non-server.

It's been a while.

I do remember being pissed as snow supported some older software via Carbon(?) which was removed in lion and it wasn't virtualisable.

 

[MacHeritage]

You're right snow leopard has to be server, lion is possible as non-server.

It's been a while.

I do remember being pissed as snow supported some older software via Carbon(?) which was removed in lion and it wasn't virtualisable.

It was bigger than some Carbon apps. It was Rosetta being taken out of Lion 10.7 that killed all PowerPC apps.

Snow Leopard nuked Mac OS 9 Virtualization ability within the OS, killed PowerPC support for running the OS on PowerPC Mac hardware and in Lion 10.7, the big one, Resetta running any PowerPC built apps on Intel. But Apple was forced to do the later since their license with IBM expired and IBM wouldn't renew it. After this happened, Apple would not trust something so important to a third party licensed solution again. Hence why Apple is not depending on anyone for Intel to Arm support. They built it themselves, from what we know.

Back to Snow Leopard: Even though 10.6 was originally slated to support from G3 to Xeon (they even had some promo graphics made for it) and there is an internal beta build with PowerPC support that is online.

Now that we know what happened (many years after the fact), I can see how Apple made the decisions it did with Snow Leopard with Apple being Apple. They changed their course and just took it all out and started with a cleaner slate, along with rebuilding the entire Finder and many other apps in 64-bit. This also explains why the bugs were so bad in the early releases up until 10.6.3 (from memory) as well.

It ended up being a clean up release and only charging $30 instead of the full $129 like previous releases.

Oh the memories this brought back. It spelled the end of the PowerPC Mac support and we were forced to live with Leopard for years after that on the G3, G4 and G5's. Apps dropped PowerPC support very quickly after that, so us PowerPC users became an island unto ourselves. It has been that way ever since.

But it was also the last Mac OS to have a long development cycle and therefore is still one of the most favoured and stable Mac OS releases in recent memory. Pros, including myself, didn't move off of 10.6 until 10.9 Mavericks came out. It also goes along with one of the most stable hardware Apple produced (until the 2019 Mac Pro) and that was the Mac Pro 2010-2012. Snow Leopard Server is also the best way to run older apps in virtualization with hacks from Lion to bring in sound and can also run PowerPC apps.

I'll stop there.

As you can see, the current transition is smoother.

Edit: Corrected my post! Rosetta was killed in Lion, not Snow Leopard! Where was my brain? That is the whole reason 10.6 was so loved for so long and the main reason I use it for virtualization. 😂

 

[gilby101]

Since they had to drop running PowerPC apps on Intel

Snow does have Rosetta, so can run PPC apps. Or did I misunderstand what you intended?

This also explains why the bugs were so bad in the early releases as well.

My memory is that whilst Leopard had bugs, Snow Leopard was pretty good even as first released.

 

[MacHeritage]

Snow does have Rosetta, so can run PPC apps. Or did I misunderstand what you intended?

My memory is that whilst Leopard had bugs, Snow Leopard was pretty good even as first released.

Sorry, you are correct it was Lion I was thinking of. I will correct that.

Snow Leopard was rough until .3 from what I remember. I didn't upgrade until then and Apple also shipped the last DVD with that version because it was stable enough.

 

[gilby101]

I do remember being pissed as snow supported some older software via Carbon(?) which was removed in lion and it wasn't virtualisable.

You must have missed this 35-page thread https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-into-parallels-on-modern-intel-macs.1365439/ Though primarily about Parallels, it was my source as to how to install non-server Snow in Fusion - I did add a few posts about that.

 

[throAU]

You must have missed this 35-page thread https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-into-parallels-on-modern-intel-macs.1365439/ Though primarily about Parallels, it was my source as to how to install non-server Snow in Fusion - I did add a few posts about that.

Oh of course it is POSSIBLE. I was already messing with Leopard on non-mac hardware, never mind just spinning it up as a VM on a Mac. It's just not necessarily LEGAL.