Seasoned Designers and Developers, DISCUSSION?

[jng]

Where are the seasoned folks? I'm about ready to stop browsing this particular forum. Too many newbie "how to" questions or stuff about getting jobs. Let's have some real discussion about something. I tried here, but alas that thread died quickly.

So let's find something else, maybe also start a monthly discussion topic? Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[Malfoy]

In all honesty, if you want something deeper find a subject specific forum like http://forums.devshed.com/ .


To Mods: If I'm not suppose to link to other forums, I apologize.

 

[Stampyhead]

Every developer's favorite topic: Internet Explorer

Ok, here's a subject. Microsoft recently announced that they are working on IE8 and in it they will be addressing some concerns about web standards, but not all. Do you think IE8 will be an improvement on IE7? What do you think they'll improve? Why do you think they are so reluctant to fully embrace web standards like other browser developers have done?

 

[Photomax]

The main thing I would want from IE8 is a app that launches a cosmic death ray that will seek out every copy of IE6 in existence and destroy it...

 

[angelwatt]

Yeah I've thought of starting "real" discussions, but often don't have time to create them in the detail I want. The newbie questions don't bother me too much as I like to help them, but am tired of the "what host should I use" question because it's asked so often and they could just go read those other threads.

What do people think about discussions on,

• Uses for XML transformations (I like playing with XML and XSLT)
• [Usability technique here] discussion
• Server security techniques for Apache web server (I know I could learn more here)
• Web standards evolution, what do you think is missing/outdated?

Maybe we could setup a poll with discussion ideas and use that to create a thread and let it run for 2 weeks to a month, then move to a new topic. Though of course the old one could continue on as need be.

The IE discussion idea could be interesting. I can see it getting off topic quick. I haven't read anything on IE8 potentials, but guessing is half the fun. I'd personally like an uninstall option I think they need to do to IE what they did to Longhorn (what Vista used to be called), just start over from essentially scratch. It would remove the bloat and maybe they could rethink that ActiveX idea and separate the Browser from the Windows updater (like OSX does).

I'd at least hope they could get their web standards support up to at least Firefox 1.5 level. They have to realize web standards are one of the browser's biggest problem so it's hard to grasp why they are so slow on that. I also hope they are able to keep their word on having more frequent updates to IE. It won't ever make me switch to IE, but as a web developer it would make it nice not to have to test things in every single browser.

I kind of like Photomax's idea. Additionally, I feel they could make IE8 for XP/Vista/2000? and a IE8 Lite/Classic for older Window OS's that is still able to do "most" of what the original could do, but still work well on the older machines/OS. This would allow people to update their IE browser without being forced to upgrade their OS.

P.S. Even non-seasoned folks here should feel free to jump into discussions. Sometimes questions/comments from the inexperienced lead to great points and bring up fun discussions in them self.

 

[Stampyhead]

I think they need to do to IE what they did to Longhorn (what Vista used to be called), just start over from essentially scratch. It would remove the bloat and maybe they could rethink that ActiveX idea and separate the Browser from the Windows updater (like OSX does).

I'd like to see that too, but unfortunately MS seems to take the same attitude toward IE that they ultimately took toward Windows - they are very hung up on backwards compatibility and seem to value that more than making any actual improvements to the software. Granted, they have a lot of customers they don't want to piss off, especially the high profile businesses, but at some point I think they just need to cut their losses and start over with something better. That's really the only way they're going to create a browser that can even come close to Firefox or Safari. There's an interesting interview on sitepoint.com with Chris Wilson, who is the Platform Architect for Internet Explorer at Microsoft. He doesn't really directly answer any of the questions as to why MS refuses to completely comply with web standards, which tells me he doesn't really have a viable answer.

I like the cosmic death ray idea too. The less IE5 & 6 users out there the better...

 

[eb6]

Ie8

As a designer the last thing I want is another browser. Why can't they just fix IE7?

IE8 won't fix IE6 and 7. Thats what I want. Since it's Christmas and all.

 

[jng]

In all honesty, if you want something deeper find a subject specific forum like http://forums.devshed.com/ .

Yes I could. But I hate signing up for too many forums and this one is enough of a distraction already. The only other forum I browse now and then is sitepoint and even there I find that there's too many newbie or "how to" questions and not enough discussion.

I had hoped that in a mac forum we could discuss some things about design.

Ok, here's a subject. Microsoft recently announced that they are working on IE8 and in it they will be addressing some concerns about web standards, but not all. Do you think IE8 will be an improvement on IE7? What do you think they'll improve? Why do you think they are so reluctant to fully embrace web standards like other browser developers have done?

I wonder why Microsoft says they won't address all issues of web standards. That strikes me as odd (fyi I don't know anything about MS and IE8). For me IE7 was an improvement over IE6 in terms of loading pages properly. But from the user point of view, the redesign of the interface really bugs me and I hate it. So for me, it really depends on what MS wants to do with IE8. It seems like to me they're running around without any real or proper plan.

I don't know why Microsoft is reluctant to embrace web standards. But as you point out in your later post, maybe it is because of backward compatibility and also the fact that IE is integrated into Windows?


Also, even you're rather against IE6 users (cosmic ray of death...). Actually I don't really have a huge problem with IE6. With the proper DTD tags, it actually renders the page nearly as should. I actually use IE6 at work (I work in a school). They have windows 2000 machines and just haven't bothered to upgrade to vista (some machines do have XP and IE7 though)/

 

[Stampyhead]

Actually I don't really have a huge problem with IE6. With the proper DTD tags, it actually renders the page nearly as should. I actually use IE6 at work (I work in a school). They have windows 2000 machines and just haven't bothered to upgrade to vista (some machines do have XP and IE7 though)/

Yeah, I use IE6 at work too, unfortunately, and I'm at the point where I've learned how to work around its differences. I guess it just annoys me that I have to. I don't have to have separate styles for Safari and Firefox, so why does IE have to be different?

 

[inkswamp]

Where are the seasoned folks? I'm about ready to stop browsing this particular forum.

You're barking up the wrong tree. There are lots of discussion forums out there for pro Web development. I did Web development professionally for 7 years (the real deal, too, involving back-end programming and database work, not just the icing on top, i.e., HTML/PHP/ASP) and never once have I thought to come to MacRumors for discussions pertaining to my profession.

You might find some casual chat here about development, but for deeper, you ought to look elsewhere.

 

[angelneo]

Yeah, I use IE6 at work too, unfortunately, and I'm at the point where I've learned how to work around its differences. I guess it just annoys me that I have to. I don't have to have separate styles for Safari and Firefox, so why does IE have to be different?

The best part about IE 7 is that they broke the workarounds I often use to get around the firefox and IE 6 incompatibilities. The famous underscore prefix in css does not work anymore in IE 7. (although it shouldn't have work in the first place)

EDIT: On a side note, I realise using javascript and xml to construct web pages dynamically is becoming more popular, but do you find them to be slowing down web browsers performance dramatically for a heavy site?

 

[jng]

You're barking up the wrong tree.<snip>
You might find some casual chat here about development, but for deeper, you ought to look elsewhere.

ja, but we could discuss design more here since mac lovers should appreciate design more than your avg computer person. plus i'm not really a developer, more of a designer. and i'm just surprised that discussion doesn't really happen in this particular forum. it's really more of a "review my site" or "how to" forum. and i just sort of wanted to express my disappointment in that and was wondering if anyone else felt the same.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Ok, here's a subject. Microsoft recently announced that they are working on IE8 and in it they will be addressing some concerns about web standards, but not all. Do you think IE8 will be an improvement on IE7? What do you think they'll improve? Why do you think they are so reluctant to fully embrace web standards like other browser developers have done?

My other favorite post is to do with that problem Adobe Photoshop has with over saturated colours with the save for web function.

"Why does my site look different in Firefox, Safari and IE" always puts a smile on my face.

 

[rhyndu]

Ie8

Microsoft is really losing direction, and as one person (I think it was on MacRumors) said, it is acting a lot like a richer 1990-era Apple. They have too many mediocre developers, have too many Product Managers, and just are too clunky in general to get anything done.

I think that its not just IE that needs to be completely restructered - it is the company itself. Once that happens, they can start focus on creating a web browser that favors standards complient code (my dream) and doesn't make CSS harder to use than tables!

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Microsoft is really losing direction, and as one person (I think it was on MacRumors) said, it is acting a lot like a richer 1990-era Apple. They have too many mediocre developers, have too many Product Managers, and just are too clunky in general to get anything done.

I think that its not just IE that needs to be completely restructered - it is the company itself. Once that happens, they can start focus on creating a web browser that favors standards complient code (my dream) and doesn't make CSS harder to use than tables!

They have lost focus, have a look at there last release:

Zune was a flop (not once but twice), Vista hasn't sold nearly as many as thought (I believe they sold less than 200 copies in China), IE is looking dated compared to competition (I am aware most people use IE) and well look how their phone is going (or not).

M$ is not the organisation they used to be, I'm not sure if they've had their time or if it's lack of direction and focus but they haven't released anything groundbreaking for some time now.

 

[rhyndu]

They have lost focus, have a look at there last release:

Zune was a flop (not once but twice), Vista hasn't sold nearly as many as thought (I believe they sold less than 200 copies in China), IE is looking dated compared to competition (I am aware most people use IE) and well look how their phone is going (or not).

M$ is not the organisation they used to be, I'm not sure if they've had their time or if it's lack of direction and focus but they haven't released anything groundbreaking for some time now.

Very good points. To add something, just think about their DRMs!

I remember when I used to think Microsoft was cool and revolutionary... oh!

 

[ezekielrage_99]

I remember when I used to think Microsoft was cool and revolutionary... oh!

I remember when Windows 95 and Windows 3.11 for Workgroups was groundbreaking.

 

[Cleverboy]

Yeah, I use IE6 at work too, unfortunately, and I'm at the point where I've learned how to work around its differences. I guess it just annoys me that I have to. I don't have to have separate styles for Safari and Firefox, so why does IE have to be different?

I just got my job to switch to all Macs, but prior to that geat holy event, the boss was using IE 7 and we were mostly using IE 6. I'm looking to run IE6 & IE7 on my new iMac that should be in on Thursday... so I'm researching that right now. For the most part, it doesn't matter what a developer wants. IF the client is using IE 6... you better make sure it runs well on IE 6. If the client is on IE 7, you better make sure it runs well on IE 7. If you're client is on IE 5... for Macintosh... get a new client.

In general, I try to make websites as widely compatible as possible, with few "drop-offs". Bugs me when someone whines about supporting Firefox or Safari with little merit. I remember hearing one developer complain about clients using Firefox as if they were freaks of nature and rendering issues with her code were solely Firefox's fault. Eh. Where a long way from the horrors of Navigator 4.7 at this point.

~ CB

 

[Aniej]

What do people think about discussions on,

• Uses for XML transformations (I like playing with XML and XSLT)
• [Usability technique here] discussion
• Server security techniques for Apache web server (I know I could learn more here)
• Web standards evolution, what do you think is missing/outdated?

Maybe we could setup a poll with discussion ideas and use that to create a thread and let it run for 2 weeks to a month, then move to a new topic. Though of course the old one could continue on as need be.

The IE discussion idea could be interesting.

I'd like to second this idea or some form of it. The IE discussion was interesting and pretty much affirms the point that if we put interesting topics out there, it mitigates the likelihood of the type of questions we were complaining about being included in the thread. Because it is clearly a lot easier to scroll through only a couple of pages rather than one giant page of several different topics, perhaps we could begin a new thread with something along the lines of SD3 (Seasoned Designers and Developers Discussion)? I'm just throwing ideas out there because I would really like to see this type of discussion continue and find that when I turn to this forum and only see certain types of questions, I run for the back arrow.