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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
While the monthly/ daily POTD thread is fun for many participants, I think it is pretty clear that there are some who take a more serious approach to their photography and who have honed their understanding and use of photographic and post-processing/editing skills much beyond the casual snapshot stage. Sometimes it can be a bit frustrating seeing the direction in which the POTD thread seems to be going.

The idea about which at this point I'm simply putting out feelers would be a thread similar to the POTD Thread and an adjunct to it except that it would be moving beyond what iGary had initially suggested back in 2006, which was actually a time long before iPhone and Smartphone photography was even a "thing," and back when a lot of people only removed their P&S from a drawer when there was a family celebration or they were getting ready to go on a vacation trip. Now everyone and his cousin who has an iPhone or other smartphone pulls the device out of a pocket and fires off a few snapshots whenever they feel like it. Sites like Instagram and Facebook encourage people oversharing everything, including photos of whatever they had for breakfast, lunch or dinner. At the time iGary proposed the POTD thread most people who were sharing their images in the Digital Photography subforum were already serious photographers using rangefinders, SLRs and the newly-emerging DSLRs. The photography environment has changed significantly since May 2006.

So.....if this new thread were to come into being, the idea is that the rules would be a bit more stringent and the requirements for participation would be as well. For example, posted images would be shot with only film or digital cameras with interchangeable lenses (Rangefinders, SLRs, DSLRs, m 4/3, Mirrorless cameras, Medium Format and Large Format cameras). Images shot with iPhones or other smartphones, P&S cameras, "bridge"/"Superzoom cameras, high-end compact cameras, etc., would not be allowed. Of course those could still be shared in the regular POTD thread or in other areas such as the Photo Gallery section on MR.

Similarly, there would be emphasis on quality so that images reflect a thoughtful approach to the art of photography, demonstrating an understanding of basic rules of composition, appropriate use of shutter speed, aperture, DOF, ISO and focus..... And equally importantly, the subject matter would be more seriously considered as well, leaving the snapshots of family pets, one's breakfast/lunch/dinner, shots around the home and suchlike to either the threads already set up for those in MR's Photo Gallery area, which is really where they belong in the first place, or in the current POTD thread since they've arrived there anyway.

As is done now with the regular POTD, there would be no time frame restrictions on any image shared, so that one could delve back into their archives as need be, but of course the main idea would be for participants to share current images that they've recently shot.

In his original concept, iGary had suggested that participants post their location/time/date and EXIF of the images they were sharing, and to a large extent much of that has fallen by the wayside for one reason or another. At the time I think he was interested in seeing a variety of images coming from different sources: different locations/countries, views and scenes which might otherwise might never be seen by people in other countries, etc. Sharing images of new sights and different subjects was still intriguing and exciting as people began exploring the flexibility and ease of digital photography versus film. He wanted to see the vast range of possibilities that good photographers could discover and share rather than the same old, same old.

Some people don't want to disclose the location of a shot for privacy reasons or may prefer to strip out the automatic EXIF information, especially if it also includes the copyright information with their real name, again a privacy issue. To me that makes sense. While it can be useful to know that a particular image was shot with a specific lens and the settings were x y z it's not absolutely necessary, and we do now have some media info available through the media area in MR anyway. Sharing whatever information one wants or choosing not to to do so around each image would be perfectly fine.

Anyway, just some ideas floating around in my head that I'm tossing out here. Thoughts?
 

deep diver

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
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Philadelphia.
I understand what you are looking for but I don't think it's realistic. There are too many judgment calls. Who gets to decide what "serious" means? Why limit it to ILCs? There is a lot of serious high quality work that comes out of very basic equipment, phones, p&s, etc. If someone took the time to make a good pinhole camera (as someone in the group has done) because that's what would give the desired feel, would we really say that anything in that image is not serious because it was shot with a shoebox? What criteria get used to determine the "quality" of the image? What happens when someone posts an image that doesn't meet said criteria? Who is going to be the arbiter for all of this?

I love photography, and I love the community of photographers. I shudder at the thought of taking this too seriously.
 
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Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
I went through some of that thought process, too, before posting this thread but I decided to just throw the idea out here anyway and see what others think, and if no one is on board, no one feels it is a viable idea, OK, fine, no problem......

With regard to limiting that new suggested thread to ILCs only, heck, I'd be knocking many of my own images out of being able to be posted there -- Even though I've got the A7R IV, I still very frequently reach for the remarkable RX10 M4 "bridge/superzoom" camera with the incredible reach and the tiny 1" sensor..... And by standards set in the new thread images shot with that camera would not be eligible to be shared there. So yeah, I've given that whole scenario about gear some thought! Setting the parameters at something specific such as interchangeable lens cameras and lenses only would make a difference and, yes, would eliminate some people from posting -- but ONLY in that particular thread. They could still happily make a contribution to the already-well-established POTD thread we have running now or to one of the threads in the Photo Gallery subforum on MR which has categories already established for pets, one's meals, one's desktop, etc., etc.

What prompted my post and suggestion is that frankly IMHO the POTD thread, while maybe gaining in quantity of images presented is also seeming to deteriorate these days when it comes to quality, and I don't think any of us want to see that happen.
 

kenoh

macrumors 604
Jul 18, 2008
6,507
10,850
Glasgow, UK
I don't like this, sounds like we are introducing a tiered contribution. This forum has always tried to be a friendly safe haven regardless of abilities or interests.

If I want my pictures to be shredded in the name of artistic criticism, there are a wealth of alternative lion's dens to go post in.

As far as the POTD thread deteriorating, then creating another thread doesnt fix that. What we need to do is encourage each other to post and debate.

My gripe on here is that we have got too many "what camera should I buy for $xxx" type questions or the equally tedious "the iphone is better than a camera" debates - these two and you know who's questions are what is making me disengage right now.

I miss the banter, the laughs, the cajoling and camaraderie and like Deep Diver, I hesitate to support anything that would make this yet another precious critique site.

Also, if you call it quality photography, I wouldn't be able to participate as I would miss the entry criteria.

Just my tuppence worth.... as always, feel free to ignore me, I am an idiot
 

Hughmac

macrumors 603
Feb 4, 2012
6,001
32,566
Kent, UK
I don't like the elitist idea this balloon conveys, but if you call a new thread "Interchangeable Lens Camera Photography" for example, it will draw in the people you want to participate, and maybe cause a little less controversy.

By the way, I have several high quality add on Moment lenses for my iPhone SE2 (wide angle, tele, closeup), and I dote on my RX100, both decent enough cameras if you know how to use them, but as I'm not getting out much these days the quality of my DSLR work lately would probably rule me out from your proposed idea ;)

I will put up with the POTD thread and just surf past those photos I don't appreciate.

Cheers :)

Hugh
 

laptech

macrumors 601
Apr 26, 2013
4,130
4,455
Earth
Based on the criteria of the supposed thread, it is not a thread I would use to post good quality professional type pictures because if I was going to do that, I would do so on a specific photography/camera forum where the viewership is going to be predominantly photographers. I have a couple of Nikon and Canon DSLR cameras and to be honest, if I was going to be taking regular photo's I would post them in the POTD thread. anything photo I took that I deemed to be of a good to very good standard, I would keep to myself because posting such photos in a forum on the internet can lead to all sorts of copyright and ownership issues (other people taking copies of your uploaded photo's).
 

r.harris1

macrumors 68020
Feb 20, 2012
2,210
12,757
Denver, Colorado, USA
For me, I‘d have to vote “no” because too many people take great images on a lot of different devices that aren’t ILCs. Things have changed since 2006 certainly, most notably that there are more choices of image taking instruments that produce stunning pictures in the right hands. Obviously too, now everyone has a camera. When everyone has a camera, most images will be unconsidered snaps of life’s daily trivia that only have meaning or context to the taker. The kicker is social media because now you can share that trivia with gazillions of others. Used to be our minutia stayed locked up in photo albums and slides to inflict on a select few. Although to be fair, while it’s possible to share with billions of my closest friends, only a very small handful ever get inflicted with them, including you all :).

Let‘s keep the forum as welcoming and educational as possible. Maybe there are ways to encourage “taking it to the next level” in POTD, I don’t know.
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,821
9,508
While at times some of the photos in the thread may be deemed low quality or silly by some (I admit to posting a few which may fall into both categories) I don't see it being overly problematic. There are other sites which cater to more serious photographers or photographers who don't wish to see photos which were taken by phones or cameras which don't fit into their idea of quality devices.

The photo threads here are subsets of an Apple Mac rumours site. I would be curious in knowing what the photo threads here offer @Clix Pix that she feels she does not or could not get on more photo centric sites. There must be something of value, after all she is here.
 

ericgtr12

macrumors 68000
Mar 19, 2015
1,774
12,175
Times have really changed. Smartphone cameras have given everyone a decent P&S camera and the result is that their photos are posted everywhere, saturating the market/internet. Manufacturers also continue to up their game with each release, better lenses, software, sensors, etc.

As a photographer who puts a lot of thought and time into my photos it can be discouraging go get my photos out there amidst a flood of other photos on the same subject. But it's also an opportunity to set yourself apart, albeit a bit more challenging.

Equipment matters, you have one thing that a smartphone does not, quality lenses and DSLR/mirrorless sensors. No matter how sophisticated they make them or how many pea sized lenses they paste on the back they will always be limited by optical reach. I have had good success using longer lenses to separate myself from the pack.

The gap between DSLR/mirrorless and smartphones is razor thin at this point, it's often hard to know the difference on a mobile device without looking at EXIF data so I think we embrace it as another medium as opposed to trying to segregate it. There are some wonderful photos taken with newer smartphones, just look at the photos thread in the iPhone forum, I would challenge anyone to look through those and point out what camera took what photo.

However, some thoughts on options that can be implemented here that may help are 1) add prefixes to describe camera type (smartphone or DLSR/Mirrorless) and 2) Make separate POTD threads by camera type.

In the end the camera is just a tool for one's creativity, we should encourage and support all who are interested in it no matter which they choose to use.
 

mollyc

macrumors G3
Aug 18, 2016
8,065
50,742
I'm also in the hard no camp.

I'm a member of two highly regarded photography forums, where through a process of an application and portfolio review you can receive a title and some fancy badges and have the opportunity to write blog posts, teach classes, etc. Both are highly active forums and welcome everyone from beginners to working pros to advanced hobbyists. One need not apply for the "title" if not desired, but many find it a natural progression as their talents and skills progress and develop. I have titles for both groups, have written blog posts and have been given the opportunity to teach an online class in the fall.

I spend a lot of time there helping newer photographers, doing portfolio reviews to help others achieve the "title and fancy badges" and encourage people to find their voice in photography. I find this very rewarding and have made many good online friends in doing so (and even met a few in person). We talk about serious stuff like white balance and skin tones, composition, lighting, editing, and all the myriad of little things that make a good photo and whether a specific photo is portfolio worthy or not (also recognizing that one photo may be a fit for Portfolio A but not a good fit for Portfolio B or Portfolio J as different organizations have different standards and rubrics).

What I love about the MR photography group is that none of that stuff matters here. In this group, people like photos, they use whatever gear they have to shoot it, and they enjoy sharing it with others. There are plenty of other photography specific forums where people can one-up everyone else by talking about their new gear, they can wax poetic about hiking at 3am to find the elusive snipe in the woods that no one else has ever shot.

Here the focus is just about shooting and sharing. Are there photos in the POTD thread that I don't find compelling or technically "good"? Sure. But I'm sure there are people reading that thread who get tired of seeing my flower photos everyday. Yet for various reasons, that is what I shoot currently and frequently, so that is what I share. If someone doesn't like it, they can scroll to the next photo and avoid liking or commenting on my photo. No big deal.

To be honest, other than the one poster who seems to have finally abandoned our group, I enjoy the different skill levels and abilities. I often wish there was a way to make things a bit more personal here, as people are often chastised for going off topic or taking tangents in the photo association thread which is tangential by nature. I think some people are too gear elite, making sure to name drop their camera body and lenses into multiple posts to make sure everyone knows what is being used. Is knowing some gear helpful? Of course. Add the exif data as a line item when you post your photo. But to wax on about specific lenses and systems just comes across as snobbish to me and really not in the spirit of what this specific forum is about.

I could point you to photographers shooting award winning images with Go Pros. I could show you a 150 image portfolio by someone shot using only an iPhone that would blow away many images shot with a $5k kit. Do I like gear? Yep! I sure do. But I also like using it and sharing my work, and I am fortunate enough to be able to afford nice gear. But if I could only afford to use my iPhone, you bet I'd do everything I could to work with composition and lighting (most likely natural) to make my iPhone images be the best I could.

I would welcome threads about specific topics (editing, lighting {natural or artificial}, composition) or anything topic that helps to advance the skillset of someone. But I have no desire to start a thread that is very specific to what gear is used, nor do I want to exclude people from the existing POTD thread because they use "inferior" gear.
 
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Dockland

macrumors 6502a
Feb 26, 2021
968
8,944
Sweden
I do like the mix in POTD some great shots there taken with an iPhone or a P&S camera. I like to encourage that.
For me it's about context, a moment, a feeling, an atmosphere, something slightly funny, or beautiful what ever it might be. Not that much the "technical" side of it.
 

OldMacs4Me

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2018
2,327
29,964
Wild Rose And Wind Belt
Well it would certainly exclude me!

I have a rather expensive conglomeration of Linhof, Schneider, Rolleiflex and Nikon Cameras and lenses hiding in the basement. I have logged over 60 years as a photographer. I made a good living in the field for more than 20 of those years. In my early 20s I suffered through many slide shows where budding fellow photographers proved time and again they had no concept of the importance of selective editing. But I learned as much from the bad images as I did from the good.

Despite all of that I would not qualify. You see I currently take pictures for the sheer joy of it. I share them willingly, if they are not up to whatever technical standard you choose to apply, you are of course free to skip past them without a second thought. My feelings won't be hurt in the slightest. I am sometimes surprised that images I think are lacking in some area get a more positive response than images I really like, but that is of course what personal taste is all about.

Nowadays I limit myself to either my Fuji XP-90 or my wifes Kodak Z-915. I like the built in waterproof nature of the Fuji and the ease of capturing close-ups. The Kodak has a nice Schneider designed long 10x zoom that is great for day tripping or hiking. One or the other is almost always with me, something I would never be able to say about more expensive multi-lens gear.
 
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Allyance

Contributor
Sep 29, 2017
2,074
7,662
East Bay, CA
A lot of the photos I have posted were taken with my Olympus E-10 digital SLR. It has a fixed zoom lens. A lot of great photos exist because someone was at the right place at the right time, not because they used multi $1000 bodies with astronomically expensive lenses. Under this new criteria. Ansel Adams would not qualify, either would Henri Cartier Bresson, Eugene Smith, to name a few.
 

Expos of 1969

Contributor
Aug 25, 2013
4,821
9,508
A lot of the photos I have posted were taken with my Olympus E-10 digital SLR. It has a fixed zoom lens. A lot of great photos exist because someone was at the right place at the right time, not because they used multi $1000 bodies with astronomically expensive lenses. Under this new criteria. Ansel Adams would not qualify, either would Henri Cartier Bresson, Eugene Smith, to name a few.
Yesterday I went to an interesting photo exhibit. In 1945 the 17 year old Stanley Kubrick was hired as a staff photographer with LOOK magazine in NYC. In his five years with the magazine he photographed over 300 essays on a wide variety of issues. One about a boxer led to Stanley making his first film, a 15 minute short Day of the Fight.

All his photos taken on Rollieflex and Leica. Not a array of changeable lenses. Some great photos.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
I agree with @deep diver. I would consider the Sony RX1r to be a professional camera but it doesn’t have interchangeable lenses.
The RX1r doesn't have interchangeable lenses so it would not be eligible for this kind of thread, either. It's a great little camera from what I understand -- haven't handled one myself.
 
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Allyance

Contributor
Sep 29, 2017
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East Bay, CA
w-eugene-smith.jpg

W. Eugene Smith, "The Walk to Paradise Garden" , his own children, first photo published after recuperating after being wounded. A print of this hangs on my wall next to me. The final photo in the book "The Family of Man".
 

mollyc

macrumors G3
Aug 18, 2016
8,065
50,742
I’m actually really curious as to the thought process that being serious about photography requires the use of an IL camera. Someone could easily buy an entry level body and single prime lens and shoot auto jpeg and meet the criteria, yet be less serious than others using their phone set to raw and then editing the photos.
 
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jz0309

Contributor
Sep 25, 2018
11,382
30,025
SoCal
I am not in favor of this idea, cameras have evolved so much just in the past decade that enables a lot of people to become "serious" about photography. I also think that "only professional" kind of equipment does snot make a good photographer nor mean "serious" ...
A lot of people have different viewpoints, and MR and particularly this forum enables people to share their "moments", may that be a snapshot or a "serious" photo - who cares, well, I don't care.
I do enjoy the variety, I do not like each and every photo I see here, and that includes some that are probably in the "serious" category. Everyone is different and that I a good thing.
I am not sure what you are missing, or what really has changed here on MR, I did look at some of the older POTD threads that are posted in the sticky and I see similar varieties that are also here today.
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Original poster
Thank you all for your thoughtful and thought-provoking responses!

I do want to clarify that yes, I agree that people can make amazing images with smartphones and that simply because someone has an expensive top-of-the-line rangefinder, SLR, DSLR or mirrorless ILC with a very expensive lens mounted on it that is no guarantee that they will produce stellar images. I've seen some wonderful, truly outstanding iPhone photos and I've seen some lousy images shot with expensive gear. In the end it boils down to being what the individual does with the gear he or she has in hand at the time a photo opportunity arises -- and, yes, being there in the right place at the right moment.

So many factors come into play when one picks up a camera and shoots -- everything from an innate sense of creativity, an "eye" for composure and imagery to carefully-honed technical skills which help bring that image to life, the instrument used to produce the image, and the followup of post-processing, retouching and editing. It's not as simple as holding a camera or smartphone and pointing it at something or someone and pressing the shutter button, is it?

Well, so much for the concept I had kicking around in my head that just demanded to be put out there for input and commentary; that balloon just got popped! :).

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled programming......
 

laptech

macrumors 601
Apr 26, 2013
4,130
4,455
Earth
Thank you all for your thoughtful and thought-provoking responses!

I do want to clarify that yes, I agree that people can make amazing images with smartphones and that simply because someone has an expensive top-of-the-line rangefinder, SLR, DSLR or mirrorless ILC with a very expensive lens mounted on it that is no guarantee that they will produce stellar images. I've seen some wonderful, truly outstanding iPhone photos and I've seen some lousy images shot with expensive gear. In the end it boils down to being what the individual does with the gear he or she has in hand at the time a photo opportunity arises -- and, yes, being there in the right place at the right moment.

So many factors come into play when one picks up a camera and shoots -- everything from an innate sense of creativity, an "eye" for composure and imagery to carefully-honed technical skills which help bring that image to life, the instrument used to produce the image, and the followup of post-processing, retouching and editing. It's not as simple as holding a camera or smartphone and pointing it at something or someone and pressing the shutter button, is it?

Well, so much for the concept I had kicking around in my head that just demanded to be put out there for input and commentary; that balloon just got popped! :).

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled programming......
What viewers to this thread will have witnessed is how people in a forum should behave. Someone had an idea, made a thread explaining that idea and wanted feedback. Constructive feedback was given and the decision what to do next was taken. There was no shouting or arguing or being rude to one another which is just how it should be.
 

Allyance

Contributor
Sep 29, 2017
2,074
7,662
East Bay, CA
Don't feel bad, it is the photograph that counts. I appreciate the feel and pride of ownership of a fine piece of gear. I loved my Hasselblad, but I had a young family to support, couldn't afford to keep it. I learned that it wasn't the tool that counts, but the fool behind the tool that counts. Same with golf!
 
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deep diver

macrumors 68030
Jan 17, 2008
2,711
4,521
Philadelphia.
What viewers to this thread will have witnessed is how people in a forum should behave. Someone had an idea, made a thread explaining that idea and wanted feedback. Constructive feedback was given and the decision what to do next was taken. There was no shouting or arguing or being rude to one another which is just how it should be.

That's precisely why I value this forum and group so much.
 

OldMacs4Me

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2018
2,327
29,964
Wild Rose And Wind Belt
As monitors get bigger and their resolution increases, I think we will see more thoughts along these lines. Truth is images taken with tiny CMOS sensors hold up quite well viewed at 1080x1920, but they won't go a lot bigger. Anyone using a big high end monitor will see that inherent weakness all too plainly. That said I would still limit posted image resolution as perhaps the best way to avoid copyright infringement.

I mentioned those slide presentations from ~50 years ago. Today's equivalent is the smart phone images. Your good friend hands you their smart phone with literally hundreds of images which should probably have been trashed at birth and you have to go through ever so many of them to arrive at the image(s) they want to share. That said they are still good friends!
 
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