Separate Division for 'Pro' Products

[shaunp]

Am I alone in thinking is, or is it about time Apple actually had a separate division for 'Pro' products. There was a time not so long ago when the MacBook Pro and Mac Pro were miles ahead of anything in PC land. Roll forward to today and Apple is so bent on making their entire product set thin and light the 'Pro' offerings are compromised at best - lack of ports, RAM limitations, no matte screen option, no credible workstation offering, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I personally think Apple should stop trying to fit pro and consumer products into the same mould, and go create proper work tools that aren't restricted by trying to look cool for the kids. Separate out this business and even let it stand on it's own if need be.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Am I alone in thinking is, or is it about time Apple actually had a separate division for 'Pro' products. There was a time not so long ago when the MacBook Pro and Mac Pro were miles ahead of anything in PC land. Roll forward to today and Apple is so bent on making their entire product set thin and light the 'Pro' offerings are compromised at best - lack of ports, RAM limitations, no matte screen option, no credible workstation offering, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I personally think Apple should stop trying to fit pro and consumer products into the same mould, and go create proper work tools that aren't restricted by trying to look cool for the kids. Separate out this business and even let it stand on it's own if need be.

Just not true apple have never made the most performance centric hardware, a pc could always be configured to hammer them, especially in the graphics dept, this has been true for at least the last decade.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Just not true apple have never made the most performance centric hardware, a pc could always be configured to hammer them, especially in the graphics dept, this has been true for at least the last decade.

They don't nessicarily need too because the optimizations on MacOS still beat many more powerful options.

 

[AndreeOnline]

Am I alone in thinking is, or is it about time Apple actually had a separate division for 'Pro' products.

I don't think a new division is necessary, but I'm totally on board with Apple acknowledging the different needs of consumer and pro products.

For instance, number of pros that cried out for the nMP to be "as small as possible" before it was revealed: 0.

I don't think there was a single 5.1 owner that said: give me something new, as long as it's 1/3 the size.

And I think you're right that the same can be said about the MacBook Pro lineup. 'Pro' has lost it's meaning quite a while back. And that is a shame, since I think purpose built computers from Apple would be very well received, even if that particular revenue stream would pale compared to consumer oriented products.

 

[shaunp]

They don't nessicarily need too because the optimizations on MacOS still beat many more powerful options.

And how exactly does that make up for lack of ports and the need to carry dongles, the lack of a matte screen option, and RAM being stuck at 16GB on the MacBook Pro, or the complete non-existence of a Mac desktop that supports PCI-e cards and internal storage?
[doublepost=1510092231][/doublepost]

Just not true apple have never made the most performance centric hardware, a pc could always be configured to hammer them, especially in the graphics dept, this has been true for at least the last decade.

True for desktops, but for laptops there was a time not that long ago where MacBook Pro's were miles ahead of anything running Windows. The point is Apple only now make consumer-focused products where they once made products that you could actually use to get a job done.

 

[goMac]

You'd have to move the Mac product line somewhere where Ive doesn't get himself involved.

Good luck with that.

 

[William Payne]

You'd have to move the Mac product line somewhere where Ive doesn't get himself involved.

Good luck with that.

A lot of people chuck blame at johnny Ive but the reality is he was senior vice president of industrial design starting in 1997 and all through the years where the machines we love were made.

 

[MarkJames68]

A lot of people chuck blame at johnny Ive but the reality is he was senior vice president of industrial design starting in 1997 and all through the years where the machines we love were made.

Until 2011 only one voice mattered, regardless of their title.

 

[William Payne]

Until 2011 only one voice mattered, regardless of their title.

True, but he has long since passed. Nothing is going to change that.

 

[MarkJames68]

True, but he has long since passed. Nothing is going to change that.

The problem is that he was such a force that I guarantee the first few years were “what would Steve do”, and then it became a bookkeeping exercise of maintaining profits to assure the shareholders they could do without him.

 

[goMac]

Until 2011 only one voice mattered, regardless of their title.

Yep. Until 2011, Jobs was the Vice President of Industrial design. No matter what the official titles were.

Unless you have a CEO willing to reign Ive in, doesn't matter how you reshuffle the Mac.

Best hope for the new Mac Pro is that Ive is bored and maybe he won't fuss with it.

(I'm not also saying it's solely Ive's fault. But gosh that would be a start.)

 

[William Payne]

Steve Jobs is dead, gone, passed on, never ever ever coming back.

I say that with the utmost respect for his legacy. But we all need to face facts, he is gone.

 

[throAU]

thunderbolt 3 is superior to other options and far more versatile and can do whatever new protocol comes in future with an adapter. get over it.

rather than having a bunch of obsolete unused ports on your machine in 3 to 5 years you essentially have pcie on a cable. you could, if you were crazy, hook up 4 gpus to a macbook pro for gpu compute. find another notebook that can do that.

if jobs was still in charge there would just as likely be less or zero ports by now.

 

[Chancha]

A Mac can be incredibly powerful and adaptable while still look sexy and nice. I consider Cheese Grater as one, it stroke a pretty fine balance between form and function. The recent years of dreadful pro space in the Mac line up has nothing to do with Ive's involvement or not, but everything to do with corporate interest, and lack of proper leadership and focus. They let many other factors dictate their product designs, instead of standing in the users' shoes, particularly "traditional" professional users.

 

[William Payne]

I think another thing is that the pro users who want to tinker and upgrade/modify there machine are a minority within a minority. Those who build custom PC's are generally enthusiasts, which in itself is a minority within the scope of daily computer users.

For every 1 user who loves to tinker/upgrade/modify there is probably 100 who don't care and consider their machine as purely a tool for their work like a mechanic sees a wrench.

Also factoring in that Apple Macs are a minority use case anyway compared to Windows and maybe even Linux.

I know plenty of professional computer users who use their computers to create great things, yet couldn't tell you the difference between a GPU and a hard drive.

 

[shaunp]

Steve Jobs is dead, gone, passed on, never ever ever coming back.

I say that with the utmost respect for his legacy. But we all need to face facts, he is gone.

Couldn't agree more, but at the same time Ives is not delivering anything other than consumer products. They seem to forget you need professionals to create the content for the consumers.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

And how exactly does that make up for lack of ports and the need to carry dongles, the lack of a matte screen option, and RAM being stuck at 16GB on the MacBook Pro, or the complete non-existence of a Mac desktop that supports PCI-e cards and internal storage?
[doublepost=1510092231][/doublepost]

True for desktops, but for laptops there was a time not that long ago where MacBook Pro's were miles ahead of anything running Windows. The point is Apple only now make consumer-focused products where they once made products that you could actually use to get a job done.

Only in design durability and portability and battery life, not in performance, gaming laptops and business ones still spanked them all over the shop. PC's have caught up n design portability and battery life and still spank them in performance, nothing has changed from apples point of view. Take the 15 inch 2011 MBP one of the best selling portable macs ever, its graphics were crap even in 2011. See below for it getting spanked.

http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-6750M-Mac-vs-GeForce-GTX-560M

 

[shaunp]

I think another thing is that the pro users who want to tinker and upgrade/modify there machine are a minority within a minority. Those who build custom PC's are generally enthusiasts, which in itself is a minority within the scope of daily computer users.

For every 1 user who loves to tinker/upgrade/modify there is probably 100 who don't care and consider their machine as purely a tool for their work like a mechanic sees a wrench.

Also factoring in that Apple Macs are a minority use case anyway compared to Windows and maybe even Linux.

I know plenty of professional computer users who use their computers to create great things, yet couldn't tell you the difference between a GPU and a hard drive.

It's not about tinkering. You are confusing pros and enthusiasts. There is a crossover in the requirements, but I have no intention of tinkering. I mainly want a Mac laptop with a good selection of ports so I don't have to buy and carry a load of dongles (that will break and/or get lost/stolen). I also want a matte screen and a keyboard with decent key travel, and more than 16GB RAM. I want a desktop that has internal storage - with the last Mac Pro I just had stuff all over my desk.

Overall Apple used to make products that I wanted, now been thin has taken priority over functionality. That's what I have an issue with. Not performance, functionality. The current MacBook Pro and Mac Pro are just crippled because they have become too small.
[doublepost=1510134594][/doublepost]

Only in design durability and portability and battery life, not in performance, gaming laptops and business ones still spanked them all over the shop. PC's have caught up n design portability and battery life and still spank them in performance, nothing has changed from apples point of view. Take the 15 inch 2011 MBP one of the best selling portable macs ever, its graphics were crap even in 2011. See below for it getting spanked.

http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-6750M-Mac-vs-GeForce-GTX-560M

It was the design and durability that did it for me. PC laptops at the time were just plain awful.

 

[mikeboss]

I said it many times: please, Apple, create a macOS Pro! I even would pay for it! as long as it's main goal is stability and if I'd have the ability to easily switch off unnecessary stuff.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

It was the design and durability that did it for me. PC laptops at the time were just plain awful.

Yes they were but just because they have caught up doesn't mean that apple is doing anything different to what its always done with its portables. Now you just actually have some choice and if blistering performance and old I/O is what you want most, apple aren't for you. (imac pro excepted that thing is going to be a beast)

 

[shaunp]

thunderbolt 3 is superior to other options and far more versatile and can do whatever new protocol comes in future with an adapter. get over it.

rather than having a bunch of obsolete unused ports on your machine in 3 to 5 years you essentially have pcie on a cable. you could, if you were crazy, hook up 4 gpus to a macbook pro for gpu compute. find another notebook that can do that.

if jobs was still in charge there would just as likely be less or zero ports by now.

TB 3 great, but it shouldn't be the only port. Apple just haven't found a balance. In the endless desire to make stuff thin they have taken away useful stuff. I'd quite happily buy a MacBook Pro that was as 'thick' as the 2011 model, if it had TB3 and legacy USB ports, an SD card, HDMI, Ethernet, a matte screen, user-upgradable RAM (with support for 64GB) and used standard PCI-e SSD's. I'm not bothered if this would be a heavier machine, and before anyone complains about this would be too heavy for them, then go buy one of the many lighter laptops Apple makes. I'd like the option for a nice big laptop with all the ports built-in.
[doublepost=1510135104][/doublepost]

Yes they were but just because they have caught up doesn't mean that apple is doing anything different to what its always done with its portables. Now you just actually have some choice and if blistering performance is what you want most apple aren't for you. (imac pro excepted that thing is going to be a beast)

Apple is doing things very differently from what it used to do - they've removed all the ports and made everything too thin and small. It's not about blistering performance, it's about being able to plug stuff in without adaptors and mostly being able to have more than 16GB RAM - I could get that in 2010!! the only progess Apple have made during that time is to make all the screens glossy, remove all the ports and make the keyboards awful to use.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

TB 3 great, but it shouldn't be the only port. Apple just haven't found a balance. In the endless desire to make stuff thin they have taken away useful stuff. I'd quite happily buy a MacBook Pro that was as 'thick' as the 2011 model, if it had TB3 and legacy USB ports, an SD card, HDMI, Ethernet, a matte screen, user-upgradable RAM (with support for 64GB) and used standard PCI-e SSD's. I'm not bothered if this would be a heavier machine, and before anyone complains about this would be too heavy for them, then go buy one of the many lighter laptops Apple makes. I'd like the option for a nice big laptop with all the ports built-in.
[doublepost=1510135104][/doublepost]

Apple is doing things very differently from what it used to do - they've removed all the ports and made everything too thin and small. It's not about blistering performance, it's about being able to plug stuff in without adaptors and mostly being able to have more than 16GB RAM - I could get that in 2010!! the only progess Apple have made during that time is to make all the screens glossy, remove all the ports and make the keyboards awful to use.

They always removed ports where possible first to get rid of vga, first to get rid of Ethernet, they also always went with the fastest I/O they could firewire (a flop when USB 3 came out) thunderbolt (not enough better than USB 3 to make it). The TB3/USB C port is what they have been waiting for (Indeed they were a huge part of the development and its based quite heavily on their own lightening port, something they bought in to save space on phones and tablets) its the ultimate expression of their design philosophy.

I like the new keyboards better, I have no problem with the ports, I am happy to buy a couple of cables a hub or a TB 3 dock as required to have the convenience of one cable connection when needed and the knowledge that all future USB c products will work straight out of the box without cables. Not to mention the ability to drive a 5K screen over one cable and use eGPU's as required. I prefer a glossy screen and the anti reflective coating is the best in the business, as is the screen quality, calibration and brightness. I understand the need in a few places for 32gb of RAM however that is down to some terrible decisions of the rollout of DDR4 and its integration with intels chips rather than apples doing.

Its fine not to like what apple are doing, it clearly doesn't suit you I just don't see why I or apple should care when they are the driver behind their increased mac sales (11%) in a PC sales contraction period (down 1% overall). They are popular, they are great for most portable computer users and they don't have a touchscreen (I hate touchscreens on all computers) but the Touch bar is a very useful addition, if you never use shortcuts like many younger people who grew up with a far better interface and way of doing things than those of us that learnt computers and their use in the 80's and 90's.

 

[itdk92]

I said it many times: please, Apple, create a macOS Pro! I even would pay for it! as long as it's main goal is stability and if I'd have the ability to easily switch off unnecessary stuff.

What would you like to turn off?

 

[shaunp]

They always removed ports where possible first to get rid of vga, first to get rid of Ethernet, they also always went with the fastest I/O they could firewire (a flop when USB 3 came out) thunderbolt (not enough better than USB 3 to make it). The TB3/USB C port is what they have been waiting for (Indeed they were a huge part of the development and its based quite heavily on their own lightening port, something they bought in to save space on phones and tablets) its the ultimate expression of their design philosophy.

I like the new keyboards better, I have no problem with the ports, I am happy to buy a couple of cables a hub or a TB 3 dock as required to have the convenience of one cable connection when needed and the knowledge that all future USB c products will work straight out of the box without cables. Not to mention the ability to drive a 5K screen over one cable and use eGPU's as required. I prefer a glossy screen and the anti reflective coating is the best in the business, as is the screen quality, calibration and brightness. I understand the need in a few places for 32gb of RAM however that is down to some terrible decisions of the rollout of DDR4 and its integration with intels chips rather than apples doing.

Its fine not to like what apple are doing, it clearly doesn't suit you I just don't see why I or apple should care when they are the driver behind their increased mac sales (11%) in a PC sales contraction period (down 1% overall). They are popular, they are great for most portable computer users and they don't have a touchscreen (I hate touchscreens on all computers) but the Touch bar is a very useful addition, if you never use shortcuts like many younger people who grew up with a far better interface and way of doing things than those of us that learnt computers and their use in the 80's and 90's.

I rest my case. Apple clearly need more than one product line - they have one that suits your needs, not one that suits mine any longer and I'm not alone in thinking this. You are clearly a consumer.

 

[William Payne]

It's not about tinkering. You are confusing pros and enthusiasts. There is a crossover in the requirements, but I have no intention of tinkering. I mainly want a Mac laptop with a good selection of ports so I don't have to buy and carry a load of dongles (that will break and/or get lost/stolen). I also want a matte screen and a keyboard with decent key travel, and more than 16GB RAM. I want a desktop that has internal storage - with the last Mac Pro I just had stuff all over my desk.

Overall Apple used to make products that I wanted, now been thin has taken priority over functionality. That's what I have an issue with. Not performance, functionality. The current MacBook Pro and Mac Pro are just crippled because they have become too small.
[doublepost=1510134594][/doublepost]

It was the design and durability that did it for me. PC laptops at the time were just plain awful.

No im not confusing Pro vs enthusiast. In your case it's different. In your case as a pro user Apple just outright does not make what you are wanting which is a different argument and one where I can understand the frustration.