So Apple have created a desire for Lossless Audio. Next move?

[Ralfi]

Just thinking what their strategy is here, after the major let down felt by many that their AirPods won’t support lossless audio.

So now that the public interest in lossless audio is piqued, are Apple planning to release their next-gen AirPods (Pro) with new chips that support a higher quality wireless codec?? Perhaps along side the iPhone 13 range which will also close these chips? (On that note, do we know what Bluetooth audio codecs the latest iPads support? - anything new compared to prior models?).

I wonder if we’re about to see Apple grow up in terms of Bluetooth audio transmission?

 

[bobmans]

Doubt anything will change. Lossless wasn’t supposed to be for the mainstream, that’s their spatial audio+dolby atmos which will blow mainstream people away. Somehow people saw lossless as the “big feature”, which it’s not. Something clearly went wrong in marketing because nobody seems to be talking/caring about spatial audio+dolby atmos coming to Apple Music, which is something that you can actually hear rather than lossless which you probably wouldn’t even hear (and if you do then it might be placebo effect).

Also, I don’t really know what people who where expecting their airpods max to suddenly play lossless were thinking. They didn’t support lossless 6 months ago, so not sure why people where expecting them to suddenly support lossless today.

 

[Ralfi]

They didn’t support lossless 6 months ago, so not sure why people where expecting them to suddenly support lossless today.

Not sure, but I think many held hope that lossless would work over lightning.

 

[perezr10]

Mmm, I dunno. I think most people don’t care about lossless. I know I don’t.

This sounds like one of those tech blog echo chamber things to me. All the journalists are worked up but the lossless audiophile crowd is small.

 

[Cashmonee]

Once the news cycle turns, no one will care again. Lossless audio is really not that important in most situations with most ears and music. It really comes into play when you have trained ears, are focused on only listening to music (and not doing other things), have a quiet room, and generally are familiar with the song you are listening to. Essentially critical listening. Very few people do that.

I think a lot of people have no idea what lossless or hi-res actually means. I mean people are wanting lossless to come to CarPlay!

 

[ipponrg]

Not sure, but I think many held hope that lossless would work over lightning.

Many people just wanted to validate or gloat that their $550 Apple headphones can do everything. They don’t really know what is lossless until it was said their headphone doesn’t support it

 

[Ralfi]

Mmm, I dunno. I think most people don’t care about lossless. I know I don’t.

I think most Apple consumers don’t care about it, right now.

But the plant is now seeded. I think Apple may turn lossless into a major reason for people to upgrade future AirPods.

 

[japanime]

Even among audiophiles, you will find many who readily acknowledge that the overwhelming majority of human beings -- even those who work in the recording industry -- cannot tell the difference between lossless and high-bitrate AAC.

I'm personally really looking forward to hearing what Apple does with Dolby Atmos and spatial audio. As for lossless audio, I really have no interest.

 

[H-B0mb]

Doubt anything will change. Lossless wasn’t supposed to be for the mainstream, that’s their spatial audio+dolby atmos which will blow mainstream people away. Somehow people saw lossless as the “big feature”, which it’s not. Something clearly went wrong in marketing because nobody seems to be talking/caring about spatial audio+dolby atmos coming to Apple Music, which is something that you can actually hear rather than lossless which you probably wouldn’t even hear (and if you do then it might be placebo effect).

Also, I don’t really know what people who where expecting their airpods max to suddenly play lossless were thinking. They didn’t support lossless 6 months ago, so not sure why people where expecting them to suddenly support lossless today.

I think most customers including myself are dumbstruck because they announced this update to Apple music within six months of launching their flagship headphones.

 

[anthony13]

Just thinking what their strategy is here, after the major let down felt by many that their AirPods won’t support lossless audio.

So now that the public interest in lossless audio is piqued, are Apple planning to release their next-gen AirPods (Pro) with new chips that support a higher quality wireless codec?? Perhaps along side the iPhone 13 range which will also close these chips? (On that note, do we know what Bluetooth audio codecs the latest iPads support? - anything new compared to prior models?).

I wonder if we’re about to see Apple grow up in terms of Bluetooth audio transmission?

I had similar thoughts and wondered if they were developing an entirely new delivery method. But as others have pointed out, lossless isn't necessarily what the big feature that should have been announced in the first place, as the Dolby Atmos inclusion is far more transparent to the common listener. Personally I am one of the few that would love better quality in the audio, so lossless interests me, but not at the cost of convenience.

Honestly what would be much more effective, is a customizable EQ built into iOS.

 

[ouimetnick]

Doubt anything will change. Lossless wasn’t supposed to be for the mainstream, that’s their spatial audio+dolby atmos which will blow mainstream people away. Somehow people saw lossless as the “big feature”, which it’s not. Something clearly went wrong in marketing because nobody seems to be talking/caring about spatial audio+dolby atmos coming to Apple Music, which is something that you can actually hear rather than lossless which you probably wouldn’t even hear (and if you do then it might be placebo effect).

Also, I don’t really know what people who where expecting their airpods max to suddenly play lossless were thinking. They didn’t support lossless 6 months ago, so not sure why people where expecting them to suddenly support lossless today.

From what I understand, only new music being recorded going forward will support spatial audio and Dolby atmos. Lossless audio and studio quality audio goes back decades. I can enjoy lossless high resolution music from an artist that has been dead for years or no longer records music, but I can’t enjoy spatial audio or Dolby atmos on those songs.

Why would I care about spatial audio and Dolby atmos music when I generally DON’T listen to newer music?

I also have real audio equipment to play back lossless and other high resolution music. A properly mastered studio recording when played back on stereo with the speakers properly placed will make you feel like you are sitting in front of the artist with precise instrument separation. It’s fun listening to some live concert recordings because I can actually pin point where on the stage the sound is originating from.

Don’t need Dolby atmos or spatial audio for that.

 

[Ralfi]

I also have real audio equipment to play back lossless and other high resolution music. A properly mastered studio recording when played back on stereo with the speakers properly placed will make you feel like you are sitting in front of the artist with precise instrument separation. It’s fun listening to some live concert recordings because I can actually pin point where on the stage the sound is originating from.

I will never forget the first time I heard Pink Floyd’s DSotM on DVD-Audio on my Focal 5.1 system.

If Apple can get their Lossless audio to that level, then it’ll be massive for me.

 

[anthony13]

From what I understand, only new music being recorded going forward will support spatial audio and Dolby atmos. Lossless audio and studio quality audio goes back decades. I can enjoy lossless high resolution music from an artist that has been dead for years or no longer records music, but I can’t enjoy spatial audio or Dolby atmos on those songs.

Why would I care about spatial audio and Dolby atmos music when I generally DON’T listen to newer music?

I also have real audio equipment to play back lossless and other high resolution music. A properly mastered studio recording when played back on stereo with the speakers properly placed will make you feel like you are sitting in front of the artist with precise instrument separation. It’s fun listening to some live concert recordings because I can actually pin point where on the stage the sound is originating from.

Don’t need Dolby atmos or spatial audio for that.

This isn't true. The support for Dolby Atmos can be and is implemented after the fact. It will not just be new music. From what I understand, the entire Apple Music catalogue is supposed to support Dolby Atmos by the end of the year.

 

[bobmans]

From what I understand, only new music being recorded going forward will support spatial audio and Dolby atmos. Lossless audio and studio quality audio goes back decades. I can enjoy lossless high resolution music from an artist that has been dead for years or no longer records music, but I can’t enjoy spatial audio or Dolby atmos on those songs.

Why would I care about spatial audio and Dolby atmos music when I generally DON’T listen to newer music?

I also have real audio equipment to play back lossless and other high resolution music. A properly mastered studio recording when played back on stereo with the speakers properly placed will make you feel like you are sitting in front of the artist with precise instrument separation. It’s fun listening to some live concert recordings because I can actually pin point where on the stage the sound is originating from.

Don’t need Dolby atmos or spatial audio for that.

The Spatial audio+dolby atmos is coming to older music as well, however not to super old music like you said. I’d also like to add that you’re not the “mainstream music listener”. Streaming lossless might be a good feature for you, but I can assure you that for 99% of the people spatial audio and dolby atmos will be way better for their use cases. Not everyone has the proper equipment to listen to music the way you are, and let’s be honest here, airpods probably wouldn’t be in your setup even if they supported lossless.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying lossless is a stupid feature, I’m just trying to say that for the “mainstream music listener” the spatial audio and dolby atmos will have a way bigger effect on their music listening experience than lossless will ever have.

 

[Ralfi]

I’m just trying to say that for the “mainstream music listener” the spatial audio and dolby atmos will have a way bigger effect on their music listening experience than lossless will ever have.

I think there's a bit of 'conditioning' appearing here - Apple are beginning to make lossless something fresh to be desired. It may not be now, but subtly, they're planting it into the subconscious of their users. & it'll eventually be used to sell future AirPods in what will be (or arguably already is) a very saturated market.

 

[ouimetnick]

The Spatial audio+dolby atmos is coming to older music as well, however not to super old music like you said. I’d also like to add that you’re not the “mainstream music listener”. Streaming lossless might be a good feature for you, but I can assure you that for 99% of the people spatial audio and dolby atmos will be way better for their use cases. Not everyone has the proper equipment to listen to music the way you are, and let’s be honest here, airpods probably wouldn’t be in your setup even if they supported lossless.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying lossless is a stupid feature, I’m just trying to say that for the “mainstream music listener” the spatial audio and dolby atmos will have a way bigger effect on their music listening experience than lossless will ever have.

I’m curious to know how they will add spatial audio+Dolby tmos to existing recordings? I’m guessing it would need to be done by a recording engineering during the mixing of instruments and vocals? Likewise record labels have access to the separate recorded vocals and instruments so it’s probably like opening an existing project in Logic or what ever they use.

I don’t know how long the record label has access to just separately recorded vocals,
instruments, etc, or are those separate recordings property of the artist with the completed mixed track being property of the label? If would be cool if Sony, WMG, Apple, (not our Apple?) and other record labels could master albums from John Denver, Bob Marley, The Beatles, and older Billy Joel recordings with spatial audio and Dolby Atmos, or if the days of adding it to a album released in the 1970s or 1980s is out of the question. I know some CDs I have were mastered from vinyl instead ?‍♂️(they didn’t have fancy recording equipment with computers in 1972)

Somewhat related, do songs with Dolby Atmos support also happen to support spatial audio and vice-versa? I know what Dolby Atmos is, but Spatial audio in its current form seems like the same thing but with head tracking ability (like we currently experience for movies supporting it)

I know music listeners like me are in the minority, but thats how people used to listen to music (with a dedicated stereo and proper media, no low res MP3 or low resolution stream from YouTube, Spotify or Apple Music. I’m glad that it’s changing though.

I don’t plan to stream anything higher than CD quality most of the time anyway, and even if the AirPods Pro somehow supported lossless; I don’t think the little speaker driver in the bud would make an audible difference. The AirPods Max probably would if they could since it’s a much larger speaker and more capable product.

256 AAC is probably more than fine for little dinky speakers in the AirPods and AirPods Pro.

 

[Ralfi]

I’m curious to know how they will add spatial audio+Dolby tmos to existing recordings? I’m guessing it would need to be done by a recording engineering during the mixing of instruments and vocals? Likewise record labels have access to the separate recorded vocals and instruments so it’s probably like opening an existing project in Logic or what ever they use.

For Bluray (DTS HDMA/Dolby TrueHD) to UHD Bluray (DTS X/Dolby Atmos) conversions, sound engineers need to spend a fair amount of time converting the soundtracks, but there are many more object-based effects involved in films compared to music, so I don’t think the process should take as long for music to be converted.

But honestly, I don’t see the point in converting 90% of studio albums to Atmos nor Spatial Audio as they’re all recorded with stereo in mind. Concerts yes, but even there, most artists still only have speakers on stage with no surrounds/height channels, so the only surround effects will be of the crowd cheering ?

The most anticipated music Blurays (& DVDs) are of those with increased fidelity, as they can provide a lot more detail & dynamic range on gear that supports it, which is why I’m more interested in lossless over Atmos/Spatial Audio when it comes to Apple’s music library.

 

[anthony13]

I have a lot of audio engineer experience and while I won't profess to have the answers here, I would guess that some older albums will be remixed to take advantage of spatial audio (generic or the apple branded version) and dolby atmos. To be clear, whether it was recorded 30, 20, or 10 years ago, chances are they still have access to the original tracks which means they can still separate them as they want. In other words, they can put Bob Marley's guitar in the left, his voice in the right, his drummer in the height channel, etc....

All that said, I have my doubts that this is all being individually remastered by humans. I would sooner bet, that due to money and time restrictions, they have developed an algorithm to separate music automagically.

 

[ouimetnick]

For Bluray (DTS HDMA/Dolby TrueHD) to UHD Bluray (DTS X/Dolby Atmos) conversions, sound engineers need to spend a fair amount of time converting the soundtracks, but there are many more object-based effects involved in films compared to music, so I don’t think the process should take as long for music to be converted.

But honestly, I don’t see the point in converting 90% of studio albums to Atmos nor Spatial Audio as they’re all recorded with stereo in mind. Concerts yes, but even there, most artists still only have speakers on stage with no surrounds/height channels, so the only surround effects will be of the crowd cheering ?

The most anticipated music Blurays (& DVDs) are of those with increased fidelity, as they can provide a lot more detail & dynamic range on gear that supports it, which is why I’m more interested in lossless over Atmos/Spatial Audio when it comes to Apple’s music library.

The issue with lossless and high res in general is you need the proper equipment to stand a chance of hearing any difference and even then it depends on how good your hearing is, and that’s not to say some of it may be placebo to some.

That brings me back to spatial audio/Dolby atmos with the downsides you brought about music. Besides a proper sound stage that you get with good stereo imaging, what benefit does Atmos/Spatial Audio bring besides the audience clapping? Music isn’t meant to sound like surround sound, but sound 3D like a band or artist playing directly in front of you, NOT over you, not behind you, not on top of you, etc

While I’m looking forward to lossless and high res more than spatial audio/Dolby atmos (still want to try it out) both seem overhyped and underwhelming.

 

[UKapple73]

I think Apple will definitely do something as it’s kind of embarrassing they offer a premium service but no hardware to actually listen to it.
they will probably release a AirPods Max 2, with maybe a new wireless tech that can stream the lossless data to decode within the headphones. I’m not sure why WiFi couldn’t be used?? The headphones connect to the phone via wifi and then stream the data that way? Obviously Bluetooth currently can’t do anywhere near the bit rates required

 

[hajime]

Doubt anything will change. Lossless wasn’t supposed to be for the mainstream, that’s their spatial audio+dolby atmos which will blow mainstream people away. Somehow people saw lossless as the “big feature”, which it’s not. Something clearly went wrong in marketing because nobody seems to be talking/caring about spatial audio+dolby atmos coming to Apple Music, which is something that you can actually hear rather than lossless which you probably wouldn’t even hear (and if you do then it might be placebo effect).

Also, I don’t really know what people who where expecting their airpods max to suddenly play lossless were thinking. They didn’t support lossless 6 months ago, so not sure why people where expecting them to suddenly support lossless today.

I guess because they paid a lot of it so they expect it to support everything. Me too. I returned it and wait for the next version.

 

[swandy]

This is an interesting discussion and I agree that most people, with the equipment that most people use - AirPods, headphones and in their car - will probably not be able to differentiate in the "improved" quality of the sound.
And while I have tried the Spatial Audio using my AirPod Pros, and it was very interesting, I rarely watch movies on my iPhone 12/iPad mini 5 except when flying.
Now - if Apple were to add it to Apple TV, where I watch most of my movies - then I might regret getting the Beats Solo Pro headphones instead of the AirPod Max since the Beats Solo Pros supposedly cannot do Spatial Audio.

 

[Ralfi]

Now - if Apple were to add it to Apple TV, where I watch most of my movies - then I might regret getting the Beats Solo Pro headphones instead of the AirPod Max since the Beats Solo Pros supposedly cannot do Spatial Audio.

The unfortunate thing about the Airpods Max is that they’re still incapable of Lossless audio, so for their asking price, you can get 2/3 of the audio features Apple are sprucing - At that price, I’d wait until v2 & hope they support the full package of audio improvements.

 

[bigshot]

The improvements in high sampling and bit rates all lie outside the range of human hearing.

CD quality sound has a sampling rate capable of reproducing the full range of human hearing- 20Hz to 20kHz. 96kHz extends that a little over an octave further... just a dozen or so whole notes on the musical scale. In order to hear that, you would need to be a bat or a dog. 128kHz isn't recommended for home use because some consumer equipment isn't designed for such high sampling rates and can introduce distortion in the audible band.

CD quality sound has a bit rate with a theoretical noise floor of 96dB. That is several orders of magnitude wider than the dynamic range of commercial music. In order to hear the quietest sounds reproduced by a CD, you would need to crank the volume so the peaks would be beyond the threshold of pain. In order to hear the quietest parts of 24 bit sound, you would need to incur hearing damage.

The only justification for high data rate audio is that the mastering on SACDs is sometimes better than on CDs. But you could take that SACD and bump it down to CD quality and it would sound exactly the same to human ears. This justification doesn't exist for Apple Music though. Apple requires that the songs submitted to them be in 24/96. They downsample that high data rate file to create AAC 256 VBR files. Controlled listening tests have proven that AAC 256 VBR is completely transparent when compared to CD quality sound, even to golden eared audiophiles. So the AAC, lossless and HD Audio files on Apple Music will all sound exactly the same.

The only reason for lossless or HD Audio on Apple Music is to give the "golden eared audiophiles" the bigger numbers they crave. It's as pointless as getting rid of the headphone jack in the iPhone. Apple DACs have always met or exceeded the specs of standalone DACs. The proof of that is the lowly Apple dongle, which has a DAC with spectacular specs built right into it for less than ten bucks.

If you are interested in more detailed information about this subject, here is the best article I've found about it. https://web.archive.org/web/20200426202431/https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html