Sonoma no longer has Times Font, it's missing (yet there) and other weirdness to get Times Font working in MS Office/Word 2021?

[ZombiePhysicist]

All I want to do is use the freak'n Times font (not Times New Roman) in MS Word 2021, but cannot. Any help on getting this to work would be super appreciated.

/down the rabbit hole
So anyone else notice that the Times font is now missing from your font panel in Sonoma? This may have gone missing before Sonoma but I just noticed it now. Apple now only gives you the bleh Times New Roman font.

The weird thing is it seems many of the fonts that are now missing are still in macOS in these buried system directories:
/System/Library/Fonts
/System/Library/Fonts/Supplemental

However things get weird here. First, most (all?) of these fonts do not seem to show up in Font Book.app nor your font panel in Sonoma. Weirder, if you just look at the font in the finder it doesnt give a version number:

If you pull the Times font from an older macOS like Mojave you see a version number like this:

Moreover, if you copy the old Mojave version into your personal ~/Library/Fonts/ directory, Times will then show up in your font panel and in FontBook.app. If you copy the Sonoma version from /System/Library/Fonts it will not show up. My guess is these buried fonts are somehow depreciated fonts that can only be used to render things, but not allow you to create or work with the fonts for some reason?

Anyway, weirder still, all I want to do is get MS Word 2021 to use the Times font but nothing I do seems to get it working. So after much digging around i found that MS Office will only work with .ttf files, but sadly, macOS's 'hidden' and the Mojave version of Times I found are .ttc files.

Was there an apple version of the font that came as a .ttf, and if so, what version of the OS?

Anyway, so then I tried converting my Mojave version of Times.ttc (version 14.0d1e4) using this site. And that site seems to successfully convert the .ttc version to a .ttf version. And if you use the .ttf version, you still see the Times font successfully in both FontBook.app and in your Sonoma font panel, but still do not see it Microsoft Word 2021.

It's not clear why. I've rebooted the machine to get it to rebuild the font caches etc, but still no dice. In FontBook.app I tried to validate the font and get a weird error that says "duplicate file" which I guess is because the /System/Library/Fonts/Times.ttc (Sonoma inert) version of the font exists?

/out the rabbit hole

Anyway, I'm at my wits end why something as simple as using the Times font in MS Word has now become a 'journey' but hoping some folks can help me get Times back and working in Word 2021.

Thanks so much for any help!

 

[majus]

The System/Library/Fonts version used with High Sierra contains the original Apple Times family, ©1990-99, as a ttc file. ttc files are just a container file which contains all of the Times ttf files. MS Office should be able to use the ttc file just fine; it always has.

The version of MS Word v16 I still use has a set of four ttf files labeled as Times but they are actually Times New Roman, ©2017 by Monotype. Why Microsoft would do that defies explanation.

MS Office font files are usually found here: /Applications/Microsoft Word.app/Contents/Resources/DFonts folder.

Depending upon Apple or Microsoft since High Sierra, if the font files in Sonoma for Times haven't changed, MS Office apps should be able to see both versions.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

The System/Library/Fonts version used with High Sierra contains the original Apple Times family, ©1990-99, as a ttc file. ttc files are just a container file which contains all of the Times ttf files. MS Office should be able to use the ttc file just fine; it always has.

The version of MS Word v16 I still use has a set of four ttf files labeled as Times but they are actually Times New Roman, ©2017 by Monotype. Why Microsoft would do that defies explanation.

MS Office font files are usually found here: /Applications/Microsoft Word.app/Contents/Resources/DFonts folder.

Depending upon Apple or Microsoft since High Sierra, if the font files in Sonoma for Times haven't changed, MS Office apps should be able to see both versions.

Yea, it's super weird, but I just cannot get the current version of MS Word to show regular old Times, and weird, it's no longer part of Sonoma. And it’s really weird no one else has noticed this, ie, that times is missing from Sonoma. Weird all around.

 

[majus]

Here is what I believe to be the explanation, from Apple -- https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213773

In short, the old Times family is now on this list:

Document-support fonts​

These fonts are available only to documents that already use the font, or to apps that request the font by name. Some are older fonts that were included with earlier versions of macOS or Apple apps.

=================
These older fonts are likely on-demand cloud downloads. If so you can fix the problem by simply copying the old Times set from a previous system so they can be used with new documents too. Since I don't use Font Book I can't see how it would react but it should show it.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Here is what I believe to be the explanation, from Apple -- https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213773

In short, the old Times family is now on this list:

Document-support fonts​

These fonts are available only to documents that already use the font, or to apps that request the font by name. Some are older fonts that were included with earlier versions of macOS or Apple apps.

=================
These older fonts are likely on-demand cloud downloads. If so you can fix the problem by simply copying the old Times set from a previous system so they can be used with new documents too. Since I don't use Font Book I can't see how it would react but it should show it.

thank you. But what’s weird is why doesn’t word work with the older version of that font. And why does the support version of it seem to interfere with bringing in a good version of its. And why was I the only one to notice! seems like a pretty big deal, font wise.

thanks so much for the link!

 

[ignatius345]

Same with Courier. The only Courier available in the normal way (ie, outside weird hidden support in Pages) now is Courier New, which is an abomination and should be destroyed.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Wow crazy

 

[majus]

From a previous MR thread on font issues, ( http://tinyurl.com/yvsyrdaz ), I found a link to an extensive article on managing fonts in versions of macOS ( http://www.jklstudios.com/ ). There is also a link at the beginning of the linked article to download a PDF of it.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

So a few things I noticed.

The last 'clean' /Library/Fonts folder was in Mojave 10.14

The first move from that old standard place to the new /System/Library/Fonts was in Catalina

You could still use all the fonts in those folders though even in macOS 11 Big Sur. Meaning, if you take fonts out of /System/Library/Fonts from Big Sur directory, and drop them into your local fonts folder now, they will show up in your fonts panel. Thats also the last time you can see the version number in the finder for the font (eg. Times.ttc was version 15.0d2e1).

Starting with Monterey macOS12 the fonts are no longer useable as normal fonts, ie, if you copy them into your local fonts folder now, they will not show up, and it seems you can tell they are 'copy protected' versions quickly because get info does not show their version number.

Anyway, for those that still want those old font, your best bet is to go back to Big Sur, go to the /System/Library/Fonts folder, and copy them out from there, and put them into your ~/Library/Fonts folder, and they should show up and work.

That said, these fonts for whatever reason, will not show up in MS Word/Office 2021 and I cannot figure out why. Even after converting them to .ttf format. Would appreciate any points as to why if anyone has figured it out.

Thanks!

 

[halledise]

personally, i find Times to be a tad fugly.
i much prefer Georgia.
that said, 'Times'

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

personally, i find Times to be a tad fugly.
i much prefer Georgia.
that said, 'Times'

I like georgia, but it's a touch fat at times. I prefer garamond to times and times new roman.

But between times and times new roman, i prefer times.

YMMV.

But reality is we have a LOT of documents using Times.

 

[halledise]

understood …
garamond is cool.
for san serif, i like 'lato'.
it's very similar to avenir, etc, but 'cleaner' if that makes sense

 

[theorist9]

Starting with Monterey macOS12 the fonts are no longer useable as normal fonts, ie, if you copy them into your local fonts folder now, they will not show up, and it seems you can tell they are 'copy protected' versions quickly because get info does not show their version number.

Anyway, for those that still want those old font, your best bet is to go back to Big Sur, go to the /System/Library/Fonts folder, and copy them out from there, and put them into your ~/Library/Fonts folder, and they should show up and work.

That said, these fonts for whatever reason, will not show up in MS Word/Office 2021 and I cannot figure out why. Even after converting them to .ttf format. Would appreciate any points as to why if anyone has figured it out.

Thanks!

I don't know if this is helpful info., but FWIW:

I'm using Monterey on an i9 iMac.

1) Without doing anything extra, I have Times in Microsoft Word v.16.80 (this is the latest stable release in Office 365):

2) The Times fonts that Word uses aren't stored in ~/Library/Fonts or /System/Library/Fonts; there's no times.ttf file in either of those locations (just a /System/Library/Fonts/Times.ttc file).

Instead, they're in /Applications/Microsoft Word.app/Contents/Resources/DFonts:

3) I can think of two possible differences that *might* account for why I have the fonts and you don't; I've no idea if either of these is the actual explanation:
a) I'm using the Office 365 desktop subscription, while you're using Office 2021
b) I set it up my iMac using Migration Assistant from a 2014 MBP using High Sierra, so the fonts could have been brought over that way (but that was over a year ago, which doesn't match the creation/addition dates)

4) If it's "a", it seems there should be some way for you to get those four files from MS and just copy them into the above folder (note: Excel, Outlook, etc. each have their own font folders, so if you want to access Times from those apps you'd need to copy them there as well). [The only reason I didn't simply offer to DM them to you is that I don't know if they have any metadata linking them to my MS Office account.]

P.S.: I also like Garamond--I used it on my CV before I became boring and switched to Arial.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

I don't know if this is helpful info., but FWIW:

I'm using Monterey on an i9 iMac.

1) Without doing anything extra, I have Times in Microsoft Word v.16.80 (this is the latest stable release in Office 365):
View attachment 2335950

2) The Times fonts that Word uses aren't stored in ~/Library/Fonts or /System/Library/Fonts; there's no times.ttf file in either of those locations (just a /System/Library/Fonts/Times.ttc file).

Instead, they're in /Applications/Microsoft Word.app/Contents/Resources/DFonts:

View attachment 2335959

3) I can think of two possible differences that *might* account for why I have the fonts and you don't; I've no idea if either of these is the actual explanation:
a) I'm using the Office 365 desktop subscription, while you're using Office 2021
b) I set it up my iMac using Migration Assistant from a 2014 MBP using High Sierra, so the fonts could have been brought over that way (but that was over a year ago, which doesn't match the creation/addition dates)

4) If it's "a", it seems there should be some way for you to get those four files from MS and just copy them into the above folder (note: Excel, Outlook, etc. each have their own font folders, so if you want to access Times from those apps you'd need to copy them there as well). [The only reason I didn't simply offer to DM them to you is that I don't know if they have any metadata linking them to my MS Office account.]

Very interesting. Can you get info on your times font to see if it has copyright and/or version number associated with it (from the finder and/or FontBook)?

It would be weird to need to augment the .app wrapper itself but seems worth a try!

 

[KALLT]

That said, these fonts for whatever reason, will not show up in MS Word/Office 2021 and I cannot figure out why. Even after converting them to .ttf format. Would appreciate any points as to why if anyone has figured it out.

Have you tried Apple Pages or another text editor? Maybe this is an issue with Word 2021.

If you really want to use Times going forward, maybe you should consider getting a licensed version and stop using the now-restricted system version.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Have you tried Apple Pages or another text editor? Maybe this is an issue with Word 2021.

If you really want to use Times going forward, maybe you should consider getting a licensed version and stop using the now-restricted system version.

So as I noted above, using the Big Sur version of the Times.ttc does work fine with the standard font panel, meaning it does work in pages and other more standard macOS apps.

I paid and am entitled to the fonts in Bigsur since I bought machines with that version of the operating system and am entitled to migrate my data from those to newer versions. Also a free version of time.ttf was linked above in the thread for those that want that.

This does seem like it could be an issue with Microsoft word 2021, which unfortunately we need to use.

 

[theorist9]

Very interesting. Can you get info on your times font to see if it has copyright and/or version number associated with it (from the finder and/or FontBook)?

It would be weird to need to augment the .app wrapper itself but seems worth a try!

I checked the info and found this....it's saying that the times.ttf file in the MS Word app pkg is actually Times New Roman. But at the same time I do have Times on MS Word. So I don't know what's going on.

Is the times.ttf file missing in your MS Word package?

Perhaps the times.ttf file contains both Times and Times New Roman? I also don't know why it's talking about Biblical Hebrew, unless that's general legal boilerplate that needs to accompany all TrueType fonts.

Also, note that Times is not listed in my FontBook--only Times New Roman.

You could try posting about this on the MS Support Forums (answers.microsoft.com). I've used them, and they have a lot of expertise over there. It is a bit of a pain to access, since you need to sign in with your MS account. Then again, maybe that's what keeps their forums pretty clean and free from random trolling. Just be sure to indicate you're using Word for Mac in the dropdown, and add that to the start of the question. Otherwise people can function on autopilot and assume you're using Windows.

Or, if you want more direct assistance, you could try seeing if Times is also missing from your Outlook app. [I assume it is, but if it's not you might want to try copying over the font from there.] If it is, you can use the Outlook-specific "Contact Support" link to get direct chat help from MS, and then use whatever procedure they supply (for adding Times to Outook) to do the same for Word.