Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

GerritV

macrumors 68020
Original poster
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
The pro's and cons of subscriptions have been discussed more than once: developing apps costs time hence money, developers need to eat, one-time purchases don't cover the real-life cost, etc...
I want to post this particular thread because actually, I hardly see anything happening but some minor bug fixes. The vaste majority of apps that I know and have used is simply not moving forward. Where does all that money go, where are the developers and where are all their new developments? That, I wonder...

Attached is a number of App Store "History" pages from some of my apps. I suggest you do the same with yours.
What I see makes me sad, that much I can say. IMHO not a single one of these developers lives up to their commitments. So, apart from the formentioned (mostly) minor bug fixes, do they just take our money and run?
 

Attachments

  • subs.jpg
    subs.jpg
    115.8 KB · Views: 247

pacorob

macrumors 68020
Apr 8, 2010
2,118
507
the Netherlands
I think you also need to look at the app features at launch and e.g. if it supports latest iOS features such as Live Activities, Lock/Home screen widgets. I for example have a subscription to Carrot Weather which has support for various weather sources (which are expensive for the developer) and Carrot is one of those apps that actually does mention in the app updates what is added (besides bug fixes) so I do want to say there are in fact apps that do actually add functionality and have a service that make sense to have a subscription for.

Other types of apps might be less logical to have a subscription for but I do understand the developer also has to make some money out of it and pay the bills for e.g. Apple developer account and keep maintaining the app so that it keeps working correctly with the latest iOS releases. Luckily (although limited) there are still developers out there which actually do offer a pay once app or have a subscription model which do make sense to support since they add functionality to their app or have a service in it's core app that make sense to have a subscription for if you e.g. use such an app on a daily basis and makes life/work so much better and saves e.g. precious time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kitKAC

addamas

macrumors 65816
Apr 20, 2016
1,314
1,341
Thats why after 3 years I came back to free account in Trello for todo lists.

Not only they asked 100% more for same single user account (in place of removed Trello Gold) but decreased features.

I really appreciate devs who allows to buy lifetime subscription and allows to send support if someone wants.
 

Jessica Lares

macrumors G3
Oct 31, 2009
9,612
1,057
Near Dallas, Texas, USA
It's probably easier to keep most customers that way, especially since like for example, someone the other week didn't like that Darkroom lost its Photos extension because of the memory issue, even though they reworked their algorithms which should really be what you want in an subscription update in a photo editing app.

Better to lose the people not using your app enough than the ones who are. A lot of these apps mentioned had people up in arms when they moved to subscription, and I saw a few developers just give up when they knew they weren't going to get their users to convert to one years ago. I think everyone thought the changes to the App Store was going to give them the ability to make it work, but everyone just wants to pay for Spotify and Netflix through their Apple ID.
 

AZhappyjack

Suspended
Jul 3, 2011
10,183
23,657
Happy Jack, AZ
The pro's and cons of subscriptions have been discussed more than once: developing apps costs time hence money, developers need to eat, one-time purchases don't cover the real-life cost, etc...
I want to post this particular thread because actually, I hardly see anything happening but some minor bug fixes. The vaste majority of apps that I know and have used is simply not moving forward. Where does all that money go, where are the developers and where are all their new developments? That, I wonder...

Attached is a number of App Store "History" pages from some of my apps. I suggest you do the same with yours.
What I see makes me sad, that much I can say. IMHO not a single one of these developers lives up to their commitments. So, apart from the formentioned (mostly) minor bug fixes, do they just take our money and run?

Subscription software is pure evil and a money grab. It's exactly what you said - the developers, by and large, simply don't live up to their commitment. I will gladly pay a reasonable price for a worthwhile software product to use as I see fit. If the developer adds sufficient additional content/utility to a subsequent "update", I will earnestly consider it. But I refuse to pay "forever" for something that adds NO additional value over time. Period.

Of course, threads like these are lightning rods... as are many of the responses...
 

lexvo

macrumors 65816
Nov 11, 2009
1,476
555
The Netherlands
I think it depends on the developer. For example, Carrot adds a lot of new features. I would call that a positive subscription. Other developers offer both a lifetime one-time purchase besides a subscription (for example Enpass and Adguard).

But I agree, one can wonder what some developers offer for their subscription besides bug fixes.

One final thing: if a one-time purchase does not cover the development/real life costs, the developer should consider increasing the price. For quality software, I am willing to pay (for example Omnifocus).
 
  • Like
Reactions: max2

BigMcGuire

Cancelled
Jan 10, 2012
9,832
14,032
I've seen this. You get the "bug fixes" release with really no explanation as to what... was actually fixed. Over a long period of time there's a lot less incentive to do big wow updates and just maintain the software as is because you don't need to justify a version increase and more $.

Subscription fatigue has hit me over the last year. I cut 70% of my subscriptions because I actually sat down and tallied them all up. It was a bit of a heart attack to realize how many hundreds of $ was going into stuff I rarely used. So we cut them.

I sat down and objectively looked at apps - which apps did I feel obligated to use because of the subscription and which apps did I use frequently?

My subscription window is full of expired subscriptions now. It's sad because I used to LOVE trying out new software and supporting devs - you buy something and have ownership of it, you don't feel obligated to use it - like a tool in your toolbox. Oh well. :(

Carrot Weather has been really good with updates - so there are some devs out there that don't abuse that.
 

Earthnail

macrumors newbie
May 28, 2012
10
6
Subscription software is pure evil and a money grab. It's exactly what you said - the developers, by and large, simply don't live up to their commitment. I will gladly pay a reasonable price for a worthwhile software product to use as I see fit. If the developer adds sufficient additional content/utility to a subsequent "update", I will earnestly consider it. But I refuse to pay "forever" for something that adds NO additional value over time. Period.

Of course, threads like these are lightning rods... as are many of the responses...
Developer here. The main problem is that Apple doesn’t support upgrade pricing in the App Store. The payment models that are possible on the App Store are extremely limited. Like, extremely.

An example: In our app we have subscription and lifetime options, but it’s not even possible to offer users an easy way to migrate from a sub to a lifetime purchase. And because you can purchase items outside the app, too (for example directly in the App Store), we can’t even fully prevent that you end up buying both. I had a user recently where that happened, and while we could see it, we couldn’t fix it for them. I had to email the user asking them to cancel their sub themselves. Crazy when you think about it.

If you want a change, you really need to demand it from Apple. They control the marketplace entirely.
 

GerritV

macrumors 68020
Original poster
May 11, 2012
2,264
2,729
Developer here. The main problem is that Apple doesn’t support upgrade pricing in the App Store. The payment models that are possible on the App Store are extremely limited. Like, extremely.

An example: In our app we have subscription and lifetime options, but it’s not even possible to offer users an easy way to migrate from a sub to a lifetime purchase. And because you can purchase items outside the app, too (for example directly in the App Store), we can’t even fully prevent that you end up buying both. I had a user recently where that happened, and while we could see it, we couldn’t fix it for them. I had to email the user asking them to cancel their sub themselves. Crazy when you think about it.

If you want a change, you really need to demand it from Apple. They control the marketplace entirely.
Thanks for joining the conversation Earthnail, I was hoping for a developer's insight on this.

My initial post may have been unclear, so let me state: I don't mind paying at all - be it a one-time purchase or a subscription. My real problem is seeing (almost) no progress in a vaste number of apps, in other words: the subscription fees go into the developer's pocket without him putting in the work that subscribers are entitled to expect.

While I do understand your argument about the App Store, this has little to do with the development of an app. It's a different issue that obviously takes another approach. The "freemium" model comes to mind, but again: this isn't my concern. If an app is moving forward and showing dynamics, I will gladly pay accordingly.
 

nemecek_f

macrumors member
Oct 13, 2022
61
14
Part of it may be that the release notes just don't cover everything? Once you app has localization it is quite cumbersome to prepare detailed release notes for each update. Some apps have you basic ones and you can then find more detailed release notes (with images, videos) either in the app or on the developer website.

I was curious and looked at the Fantastical release notes, which are brief but it seems like every update has added new feature. For example the iOS 16 Focus Filters, new widgets, support for importing events etc.

This being a calendar app I cannot even imagine how many small edge cases and fixes they must be working on all the time. It doesnt look like it from the outside but once you have non-trivial app out for number of platforms, devices - there is always stuff to fix or improve.

I work on a subscription app in my day job and there are absolutely a months where we don't release any user-visible feature because the time was spent on fixing reported bugs, tweaking iOS integrations and similar stuff. It is not like there is nothing to do and you count revenue.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: addamas and kitKAC

addamas

macrumors 65816
Apr 20, 2016
1,314
1,341
Part of it may be that the release notes just don't cover everything? Once you app has localization it is quite cumbersome to prepare detailed release notes for each update. Some apps have you basic ones and you can then find more detailed release notes (with images, videos) either in the app or on the developer website.

I was curious and looked at the Fantastical release notes, which are brief but it seems like every update has added new feature. For example the iOS 16 Focus Filters, new widgets, support for importing events etc.

This being a calendar app I cannot even imagine how many small edge cases and fixes they must be working on all the time. It doesnt look like it from the outside but once you have non-trivial app out for number of platforms, devices - there is always stuff to fix or improve.

I work on a subscription app in my day job and there are absolutely a months where we don't release any user-visible feature because the time was spent on fixing reported bugs, tweaking iOS integrations and similar stuff. It is not like there is nothing to do and you count revenue.
That’s a good example where proper changelog should solve the problem.

If devs posted something more than “Bugfixing” like bug numbers or the most weird one fixed like I remember from MMORPGs then it would be more visible that something is done :)
 

Earthnail

macrumors newbie
May 28, 2012
10
6
Thanks for joining the conversation Earthnail, I was hoping for a developer's insight on this.

My initial post may have been unclear, so let me state: I don't mind paying at all - be it a one-time purchase or a subscription. My real problem is seeing (almost) no progress in a vaste number of apps, in other words: the subscription fees go into the developer's pocket without him putting in the work that subscribers are entitled to expect.

While I do understand your argument about the App Store, this has little to do with the development of an app. It's a different issue that obviously takes another approach. The "freemium" model comes to mind, but again: this isn't my concern. If an app is moving forward and showing dynamics, I will gladly pay accordingly.

I believe I understood your initial post. I understand that you’re happy to pay for a subscription if the developer continues to provide updates. The reason I wrote about marketplace dynamics is that the reasoning you describe to justify subscriptions isn’t really how developers can reason about them when designing their apps.

I've been rewriting this post several times, in efforts to try to improve what to focus on. There's so much one could write on this topic. But let's talk only about two things:

1. What devs want
2. The dynamics of the App Store marketplace

Note that I'm focusing entirely on B2C software here (software sold to consumers, not software sold to other businesses).

1. What devs want
From a business point of view, cash is everything. Future revenue is nice, but especially for small companies, the only thing that really counts is money in the bank. That can be from investors, it can be from a loan that you get from the bank, it can be from your personal savings, but ideally that’s from revenue from customers.

In that sense, a one-time $50 purchase today is much better than a $5/month sub.

But how much worth is a $5 sub to the company? There’s always a churn on subs. The percentage of churn you have in each payment interval is the percentage of users who stopped paying this time - be it from cancelling their sub or their payment method stopping to work (failed credit cards are way more common than you’d expect).

The expected lifetime value is the total amount of money than your average user will pay you over their entire time as a customer. Let’s assume a 20% churn, then the expected lifetime value of a customer is $5 (first month) + $5*0,8 (second month) + $5*0,8*0,8 (third month) + …
Or, more mathematically, on a $5 sub with 20% churn:

CodeCogsEqn 4.gif


Now, this math may look a bit scary, but what it says is that if, on average, 20% of your users churn each month, then your average monthly sub user pays for 5 months. If on average, 10% of your users churn each month, your average monthly user pays for 10 months. If your churn rate is 30%, your average user pays for 3 1/3 months.

To get the same value from a subscription customer as you’d get from a $50 one-time purchase, you’d have to do the following math:
  • 10% churn -> user stays 10 months -> $5 sub
  • 20% churn -> user stays 5 months -> $10 sub
  • 30% churn -> user stays 3 1/3 months -> $15 sub
But while you get the same lifetime value, your cashflow will be significantly worse. The one-time purchase users will pay you everything upfront, the subscription users pay only over time.

This, I think, is really important to understand: In a B2C market, offering subscriptions really just boils down to "pay for my app in X monthly installments".

Because cash in the future is worth less than cash today (that's why you pay interest on your bank loans), you should price your subscription price so that the expected lifetime value is above that of a one-time purchase. How much above depends on what how much less worth future cash is for you. A rule of thumb for very large corporations is that future cash has a 20% discount. That is, $1000 in a year are only worth $800 to you today. For small companies, that discount might be a lot higher - you may not be able to pay today's rent from money you'll get in a year.

All small businesses prefer cash upfront.

2. The dynamics of the App Store marketplace

Each year, Apple updates its iOS operating system, and it has strong incentives that all users stay up to date. For developers, that's a double-edged sword: when you start development, you don't start with a lot of legacy. Unfortunately, it also means you have to keep your app up-to-date each year. Well, the business model that works well for that is: subscriptions.

The Playstation is different: If I develop a game for the PS4, I know the underlying platform doesn't change. My game will continue to run, forever. It's a fantastic marketplace for the one-time purchases.

The other model that works: paid updates. But that could lead to operating system fragmentation as users refrain from updating when developers say "our app doesn't work on iOS 16; please stay on iOS 15 instead". And Apple understandably doesn't want that.

And so Apple is keen on building an ecosystem where developers are incentivised to keep updating their apps, even if the app doesn't really need new features. Apple even does workshops with developers to teach them how to turn their business into a sub business.

Don't get me wrong, I think subs have fantastic upsides to consumers, too. My app is available as a sub (and a one-time purchase; we give users the freedom to choose). But there are other fantastic business models, such as paid major upgrades, or Jetbrain's pay-for-one-year-of-updates model, that aren't possible on the App Store.

I hope that with his post, I could explain a little bit that subscriptions aren't something that all developers look at with rosy eyes. As often in life, it's not entirely black and white. There are many upsides of subscriptions for businesses that I didn't get into. But I hope that the thoughts I shared here give a little bit of insight into how indie developers and small businesses look at this.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mico1964 and max2

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
The vaste majority of apps that I know and have used is simply not moving forward. Where does all that money go, where are the developers and where are all their new developments? That, I wonder...
Well, we all know where the money goes, especially when apps that don't really update too much. :cool:

The only pro I see for subscriptions is a consistent flow of income, so in theory the developer can spend more time updating and improving.

I have too many subs, but many of them do tend to update themselves with good updates. UltraEdit for instance continues to keep improving itself. When I was subscribing to Adobe, I'd say for me, I saw few major updates to LightRoom. Things may have changed since I cancelled my sub with them, but that was the feeling.

I have a subscription for MS Office, and I use it across three computers. I'm seriously debating whether to renew it or not. I use Excel and Word all of the time, but I don't know if its worth the price and to be honest, the updates that I see are minor
 
  • Like
Reactions: max2
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.