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Xiao_Xi

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According to TechPowerUp:
TSMC seems to have plenty of customers lined up for its 3 nm node, with Apple being the first customer out the gates when production starts sometime next month. However, TSMC is only expected to start the production with a mere 1,000 wafer starts a month, which seems like a very low figure, especially as this is said to remain unchanged through all of Q4.

Can anyone find an alternative source confirming that TSMC will produce 1000 wafers per month? Commercial Times seems to be the source for this news, but it doesn't talk about TSMC production capacity, only customers.

Could Apple launch the M2 14"/16" MBP next spring with this wafer yield?
 

Kazgarth

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Oct 18, 2020
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According to TechPowerUp:


Can anyone find an alternative source confirming that TSMC will produce 1000 wafers per month? Commercial Times seems to be the source for this news, but it doesn't talk about TSMC production capacity, only customers.

Could Apple launch the M2 14"/16" MBP next spring with this wafer yield?
When the news came out that TSMC has started production of 5nm+ "N5P" (M2) chips back in April 2021 (Link ) it took them 14 months to reach the consumer (M2 MacBook Air, June 2022).

If history repeats itself, then you can expect 3nm "N3" MacBooks to launch around October 2023.

And pretty sure by then it will be named M3 not M2 Pro (M2 Pro refresh will probably use N5P for late 2022).
 
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GMShadow

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No way they'd be able to run MBP production off that, especially since yields will probably be in the 30-40% range at first.
 
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deconstruct60

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No way they'd be able to run MBP production off that, especially


MBP 13" production? No.

MBP 16" Max production ? Maybe.

Some kind of > $3,000 per "Extreme" SoC ? would/could work.

All you have to do is suppress demand by cranking the price pretty high.

For a 300mm wafer a 250mm2 die (M1 Pro size range ) is about 241 dies per wafer. 1,000 / month is 241,000 dies per month.

If somewhere in the 10-20% defect then that is in the 200K month range.

For a 300mm wafer a 396mm2 die ( around a 10% shrunken M1 Max size ) 145 dies per wafer . Again throw a 10-20% defect rate and that is in 138,000K per month range. ( divide that by 4 gets around 34.5K ) .


If they could crank out 10K Mac Pros (mix of duos and quads ) per month that would be just fine. Pointing that the sub $2.2K MBP is the wrong problem. Apple still hasn't finished the transition. The MBP all have M-series SoCs.

The Mac Pro is probably a sub 100K units/year product. Anything around 10K per month should work.


since yields will probably be in the 30-40% range at first.

Is it really that high? TSMC has been running 'at risk' N3 for a while. What is turning on in Sept is high volume. High volume when almost half the wafer is garbage is not very good ( 50% to 40% isn't that far away from a coin toss as to whether it goes into the trash can or not. )

But even if you wanted to crank it that high. 87K and divide by 4 .... 21.75K ... still probably not going to outstrip initial $6+ K Mac Pro demand initially. A $7+ K Mac Pro would incrementally lower demand even more.


There was a rumors that there is a N5 M2 Pro chip out there. If Apple just initially applies N3 to the largest first generation die variants then get a double bang for the buck. With smaller die they get more dies per wafer. They also get a yield bump with a smaller die. So apply that benefit to the larger ones first. Work out the kinks on the process and then apply it to the high volume (and smaller ) dies more than several months down the road.

Apple uses plain M2 and M2 Pro on N5 to fill highest volume for next 9-10 months and leverages N3 to wrangle the "large die" problem into the 'midsize" die range. ( not going to stuff gobs more cores / cache /etc into it. The primary objective is to make it smaller so can produce more end product out a limited number of wafers. )
 
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deconstruct60

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When the news came out that TSMC has started production of 5nm+ "N5P" (M2) chips back in April 2021 (Link ) it took them 14 months to reach the consumer (M2 MacBook Air, June 2022).

A15 is not N5P ?


If history repeats itself, then you can expect 3nm "N3" MacBooks to launch around October 2023.

Pretty good chance history isn't going to repeat because Apple hasn't done a Large-die-first roll out in a while.
The order the M1 went out is not necessarily the same order the M2 will.


And M2 Max on N3 is a possibility of Apple is building dies in the same size range for the upper end of the desktop line on N3 . If there is a "half Ultra" sized desktop die on N3 then it would not be a big leap to roll out a M2 Max on N3 also. The wafer rate would have to be higher but that could change by April-June 2023. There is no necessary Fall limiter there.


And pretty sure by then it will be named M3 not M2 Pro (M2 Pro refresh will probably use N5P for late 2022).

Not if the one of the primary cost and risk control. Shrinking the M2 architectures onto N3 would lower risk .( because only doing substantive changes to one thing , the Fab targeting and not the arch. Intel did tick/tock for years and it worked very well). N3 shrink would allow Apple to get more dies per wafer. A14 -> A15 was die bloat. The M2 bloated up a bit also. For the much larger dies that would go from big to even bigger. Even bigger isn't going to help yields. Not going to help with costs either because N3 wafers processing costs even more than N5 variants did.

There is a presumption that they "have to" change the microarchitecture. They do not.

A10 -- 16nm 9/2016 ( somewhat bloated size for plain A-series at 125mm2 )
A10X -- 10nm 6/2017
A11 -- 10nm 9/2017 ( more normal for plain A at 88mm2 )

The 'large' die arrived on the 10nm node before the architectural shift to 11. For a while the iPad Pro had the smaller die.

Yes putting M2 architecture on N5P and N3 will cost more than just putting it on one fab process. But Apple is far from broke. If plan far ahead to do this it is not the huge deal some folks are making it out to be.
 

senttoschool

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1,000 is not "volume" production. TSMC produces 120k+ 5nm wafers each month.

1,000 is simply risk production.

Expectations are that TSMC will start mass production of 3nm in Q4 2022. This 1,000 report is either wrong or TSMC isn't starting mass production yet in Q4 2022.
 

jz0309

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multiple reports have said "mass production" which really means ~20k wafer starts/month ... 1k/month is approximately 3 lots/day, that is risk production
 
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deconstruct60

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1,000 is not "volume" production. TSMC produces 120k+ 5nm wafers each month.

1,000 is simply risk production.


Hard to tell. If Intel 'bailed' on Q4 and Apple was only targeting very low volume , very expensive then 1,000 is relatively high volume. Even 100/month is higher than zero/month. When a major wafer start reservatin flakes to zero then opens up bubbles in the pipeline. ( and causes ripples down stream).

This is somewhat consistent with the reports about a year or so ago where Intel had bought up the large bulk of the N3 capacity. Probably nn the first couple of quarters of the N3 ramp. Apple's large volume was/is on N5P so Apple was only doing relatively low volume stuff so Intel's wafer starts would dwarf Apple's at the start.

Intel was only making a iGPU tile ( not a whole processor just the GPU and perhaps some of the memory controller part). That tile probably would be in half the size of an A-series process ( Ax ~ 90mm2 so perhaps around ~45mm2 ). 2-3 thousand of what is now idle wafer starts would be been more than enough to generate a heathy amount to be coupled to larger and more numerous Intel tile/chiplets. If Intel had gone "expensive to end user iGPU" first even more so.

The number of wafers in flight has very little to do whether have crossed the 'at risk' to 'high volume manufacturing' (HVM) threshold. That threshold is far more about has the defect level dropped down to where ramping volume generally makes sense or not. Technically, it is another dimension if customers are pushing through orders or not. Usually customers are chomping at the bit to turn the wafer order spigot on at the HVM so they tend to coincide but there are not the same thing.

Apple really doesn't need very high volume N3. The 'plain' M2 doesn't need it desperately. A16 probably doesn't need it (either yet another N5P bloat or N4/N4P. N3 is way, way too late for A16 on the years ago roadmaps plans. ). M2 Pro may not even need it. ( to get a M2 Pro Mini out the door in late 2022 to wrap up the Mini transition).

Intel is in chip stepping revision hole on their GPUs. Arc Alchemist having even completed the gen 1 roll out yet (even if Intel did have a completed discrete GPU on N3 queued up to soak up extra N3 wafer volume. ) . Intel's schedule would have had to be almost perfect for the N3 iGPU tile to roll out in very late Q4 '22. I suspect that was a hedge in case Gen 13 (Raptor Lake sucked really bad). Turns out it is the iGPU that has problems and Gen 13 (for it is) is the relatively low problematical SoC. Intel doesn't need to prematurely retire Gen early in 1H 2023.

If the Intel + Apple bidding war on early N3 wafer starts squeezed everyone else out in Q4 '22 then the other folks would have planned their logistics for Q1-Q3 '23. Pulling high volume dies backward in release times is not easy. These chips go into packages/systems with other chips. There are lots of pieces that also would need to be pulled backward also. It is usually much easier to slide the systems to a forward on the time line to work out a logistics issue.

Expectations are that TSMC will start mass production of 3nm in Q4 2022. This 1,000 report is either wrong or TSMC isn't starting mass production yet in Q4 2022.

Or TMSC's customer(s) screwed up also. Decent chance Intel may be have to pay a sizable penalty if this is a very high wafer start 'flake' that opened a hole.

It isn't like TSMC can't shift some of the ASML systems over to doing N4P, N4 work. There are other customers who likely wafer start constrained on something older than N3 that TSMC can use a subset of the systems for. There are tools that are likely N3 specific that will be idled but there are other tools that span past N3 in utility.
 

deconstruct60

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multiple reports have said "mass production" which really means ~20k wafer starts/month ... 1k/month is approximately 3 lots/day, that is risk production

High volume Production (HVM) designation has to do with defect levels not number of wafers.


Advanced%20Technology%20Leadership.mkv_snapshot_03.02_%5B2020.08.25_14.15.08%5D.jpg


The y-axis there is NOT number of wafers. It is Defect Density.
 
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jz0309

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High volume Production (HVM) has to do with defect levels not number of wafers.


Advanced%20Technology%20Leadership.mkv_snapshot_03.02_%5B2020.08.25_14.15.08%5D.jpg


The y-axis there is NOT number of wafers. It is Defect Density.
if you keep a line running at 1,000 wafers per month you're losing money ... defect density is worked out in "risk or pilot production" but is ongoing throughout production ...
since there is no scale on the y-axis you're referring to, it's meaningless.
 
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deconstruct60

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if you keep a line running at 1,000 wafers per month you're losing money ... defect density is worked out in "risk or pilot production" but is ongoing throughout production ...

There is a presumption there that the equipment is lying completely idle with no other uses possible for it but solely N3 production. If the vastly more expensive equipment is used to product more N5P/N4/N4P stuff then it doesn't "loose money". They production more N4 wafers and less N3 wafers . That is not all "losing money". That why a well balanced fab has a range of processes they produce so can adjust to demand shifting.

Whether TSMC Losses money or not depends on how much advance notice Intel gave them on wafer start shifting. TSMC's margins would likely get trimmed but is more lost opportunity profits than loosing money.


since there is no scale on the y-axis you're referring to, it's meaningless.

The units are listed which is the relevant issue here.


P.S. Some of this TSMC playing with fire by letting deep pocketed customers come in and block competitors from getting wafer starts by bidding up the prices in the early going. ( or bargaining them away with market exclusionary side deals. )
 

dgdosen

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If history repeats itself, then you can expect 3nm "N3" MacBooks to launch around October 2023.
Or...

TSMC started volume production on N5 in April of 2020, then Apple started shipping M1 devices in November of 2020 - a lag of eight months.

If TSMC starts N3 volume production in September, an eight month lag would mean 3nm devices in late April 2023.

I wonder if Apple M chips are done with 5nm.
 

senttoschool

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Or...

TSMC started volume production on N5 in April of 2020, then Apple started shipping M1 devices in November of 2020 - a lag of eight months.

If TSMC starts N3 volume production in September, an eight month lag would mean 3nm devices in late April 2023.

I wonder if Apple M chips are done with 5nm.
You don't need an 8-month delay for Macbooks. iPhone volume requirements for launch are significantly higher than Macbook launches.
 

deconstruct60

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View attachment 2045970

How does N3E improve on N3?


" ...
This process node will introduce an improved process window with performance, power, and yield enhancements. It is unclear whether N3 meets TSMC's expectations for PPA and yield, but the very fact that the foundry is talking about improving yields indicates that there is a way to improve it beyond traditional yield boosting methods.

"We also introduced N3E as an extension of our N3 family," said Wei. "N3E will feature improved manufacturing process window with better performance, power and yield. Volume production of N3E is scheduled for one year after N3." ..."


Not sure if that means reducing FlexFin variability ( trading off flexibility to boost yields) or just more EUV layers and process tweaks/optimizations. N3E has better performance , power , and yield but not area. There is an implication that they may back off the density a bit. If the manufacturing is a bit less complex, then the number of defects can go down a bit. Also may have slightly shorter "bake" times.

What is being measured in the chart above is the defects for SRAM. The best FinFet SRAM isn't necessarily the best one for computational core logic. The "Enhanced" aspect is likely for a specific subset of folks; not generally a better for everybody than N3 upgrade.


Regardless it won't be surprising to see a fair number of customers just skip N3 altogether. Especially, if they just relatively recently arrived on N5/5P/4/4P. Waiting on N3E means better yields (depending upon logic/SRAM/analog mix of chip design) and potentially lower costs. N3 and N3E likely have substantively higher wafer costs , so drops in yield is a bigger 'penalty' costs than with more affordable wafers. ( unless can charge above average prices for your chips, waiting likely pays better. . )

Likely to be a N3X , N3P , and if N2 has a short stall some other N3 alphabet suffix.
 
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deconstruct60

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Or...

TSMC started volume production on N5 in April of 2020, then Apple started shipping M1 devices in November of 2020 - a lag of eight months.

A-series production starts when iPhone manufacturing needs to start for a September launch. TSMC doesn't solely just do their Fab process rollouts just for Apple. The iPhone's fixed in stone launch window doesn't dictate when TSMC shifts from 'at risk' to HVM status. They can happen to coincide from time to time. But the inference there is some huge strong correlation there, that is just smoke.

N3 isn't going to make it for the A-series. The A16 isn't going to collapse into a heap of nothingness. N3 didn't make fo the plain M2 . The world didn't end for the MBA and MBP 13". If Moore's Law goes on a 18 month cycle there is no way fab tech is always going to match the 12 month cycle of the iPhone every single year. One if technological driven deadline and the other is man-made marketing one.

N5 getting to HVM in April 2020 mean that it was roadmap eligible for the A14 + M1 combo for the summer / fall production.


If TSMC starts N3 volume production in September, an eight month lag would mean 3nm devices in late April 2023.

Doesn't have to be eight months. Before N3 went to HVM there was 'at risk' production. Apple can make / test a substantive number of chips before fully get to HVM status if planned to do so years in advance. Even easier for N3 since the roadmap target HVM for N3 was Q3-Q4 '22 . There was a broad side of a barn to hit there. If Apple prepped to be ready just in case that was late July - early August (Q3) then validation roadmap would have been back in Spring '22 so as to be ready to pull the trigger in Q3. Pragmatically Q3 is going to be a bust. (it will start in September but no substantive volume is going to come out of the pipeline until 2023... so it does a whole lot of nothing to help hit a 2022 target date to start that late.)

I wonder if Apple M chips are done with 5nm.

A16 is likely on some variant of N5 ( 5P/N4/N4P ) . M2 Pro likely also; as it is relatively higher volume. ( A M2 Pro Mini would sell pretty fast and allow Apple to actually close out the Mini's transition inside 'around" 2 years. ).
 

Xiao_Xi

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Commercial Times reports that the M2 Pro/Max will use N3 and the M3, N3E.

22-97617-001.gif


 

deconstruct60

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Commercial Times reports that the M2 Pro/Max will use N3 and the M3, N3E.
....

Apple just started core design work on M3 and launches in 10 months later. Errrr. either is there is a different "design work" definition there or that is just likely wrong. The pipeline on doing a new processor is not that short. Whatever is coming in 2023 has been in design effort mode well before now.

If there is a new architecture update for the A17 then there is pretty good chance the M3 is coupled to that. N3E schedule didn't move up until relatively recently. Given the long term planning that needs to be done N3E wouldn't have been timeline compatible with A17 anymore more than N3 was compatible with A16( and likely hence M3 ). N3E was suppose to be a year after N3. Target was 2H 2023 which is too late. That it may start ealier than that is likely too late for A17.

If during development A17/M3 turned out to be a very bad fit for TSMC N3 then switching to N3E would cause a small slide out in timeline which again would make it tough to be 2023. ( In fact once into the wcc article even they says "stick with 2024" for the M3. )

I wouldn't beat the farm on this articles. They appear to be structured to make impatient people looking for M-series updates to click on them.
 
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Xiao_Xi

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N3E was suppose to be a year after N3. Target was 2H 2023 which is too late. That it may start ealier than that is likely too late for A17.
Could A17 use N3E if volume production of N3E were to start in Q2 2023? Morgan Stanley reported that:
Our recent checks with equipment vendors suggest that TSMC may freeze the N3E process flow sooner — by the end of this March. This means that volume production of N3E may start in in Q2 2023, around a quarter ahead of the original schedule of Q3 2023.

Not sure if that means reducing FlexFin variability ( trading off flexibility to boost yields) or just more EUV layers and process tweaks/optimizations. N3E has better performance , power , and yield but not area. There is an implication that they may back off the density a bit. If the manufacturing is a bit less complex, then the number of defects can go down a bit. Also may have slightly shorter "bake" times.
Morgan Stanley also reported that:
The test production yield is much higher for N3E than N3B. Our checks suggest that the logic density of N3E is only ~8% less than that of the original N3 by cutting four EUV layers, yet it is still 60% denser than 5nm.
I couldn't find the Morgan Stanley report, so quotes are from:
 

deconstruct60

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Could A17 use N3E if volume production of N3E were to start in Q2 2023? Morgan Stanley reported that:

Likely not if Apple didn't plan for that 1-2 years ago. Don't "change horses" in last 6-8 months of the development cycle. (or if you do you get substantive delays .... e.g, Intel Ponte Vechicco which swapped out an Intel Tile for a TSMC tile about half way through. )

Screw up the iPhone and Apple stock would drop significantly. That is a somewhat risky move for a product that is a make or break product for the companies financials. iPhones come out every year but it doesn't take less than a year to develop a new iPhone. The iPhone development efforts are on overlapping pipelines that span more than 12 months. There are tons of external certifications to do and several significant parts beside the SoC to coordinate supply chain with.

In contrast, if Apple take a winger on the Mac Pro Apple Silicon model and it missed for 1-3 quarters , that would have about zero impact on Apple's overall financials. There they can afford to gamble a bit. If the larger , far higher priced (to the consumer) Mac Pro die served as a 'pipe cleaner' for the N3 process then A17 would likely be in good shape yield wise.

The N3E high volume date moving forward primarily only helps those designs that were targeting N3E in the first place all along. (but for many of those systems the design was going into.. perhaps not as much if the logistic train of the rest of the parts cannot also move back in HVM time. ) It also probably helps some folks who waiting for more information to get started. Unlikely Apple was in either of those states.




Morgan Stanley also reported that:
.. density of N3E is only ~8% less than that of the original N3 by cutting four EUV layers, ...
I couldn't find the Morgan Stanley report, so quotes are from:

If those four layers are cut and no other DUV or layer is needed then the "bake" time for these is going to be shorter. I don't think Apple is likely highly pressed about the bake times as long as they can queue up wafers far enough in advance and get enough volume of wafers going. It is expensive, but in the aggregate Apple is charging the customers lots of money to cover it.

The FlexFin gaps are about 20% wide so I suspect that feature would be on shaky ground in N3E (at least with 3 target options). If trim off the most dense one then still would have two target options. The least dense FlexFin option wasn't that far away from N4P. So it isn't all the surprising that N3E went very smoothly after getting N3 to work. There is already a less dense FinFet in N3 as an option.

N3E is somewhat about getting more done with fewer ASML EUV fabrications machines. If N3E is cheaper than Apple will move eventually, but intermediate term they can probably afford N3 ( due to passing along the costs.) .

I suspect though Apple probably wants to see if they can take full advantage of the multiple targets in N3 to make smaller , more efficient dies since they have a sizable mix of different stuff they are trying to cram onto a single die. Not sure where Apple is going to be super excited by bigger dies than necessary (unless they are much cheaper and far better margins. )
 
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Xiao_Xi

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I've read conflicting leaks about the status of TSMC N3. Has TSMC cancelled TSMC N3 in favor of N3E? What is the general consensus on this?
 

leman

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I've read conflicting leaks about the status of TSMC N3. Has TSMC cancelled TSMC N3 in favor of N3E? What is the general consensus on this?

How can there be a general consensus if leaks are conflicting? Unless you find a high-ranked Apple or TSMC executive you won’t get accurate information.
 
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Xiao_Xi

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How can there be a general consensus if leaks are conflicting?
TSMC's official statement doesn't match ShrimpApplePro's leak.

As a soccer fan, I have learned not to believe official statements because soccer clubs often fire coaches shortly after ratifying them at a press conference.
 

jdb8167

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TSMC's official statement doesn't match ShrimpApplePro's leak.

As a soccer fan, I have learned not to believe official statements because soccer clubs often fire coaches shortly after ratifying them at a press conference.
This is the same leaker who "leaked" that there was going to be a "final" version of the M1 and that the M2 was going to be on the 3nm TSMC process.
 

thenewperson

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This is the same leaker who "leaked" that there was going to be a "final" version of the M1 and that the M2 was going to be on the 3nm TSMC process.
Yeah I’m really not getting how official statements shouldn’t be believed but an unreliable leaker should.
 
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