The A13 in the Studio Display has better single-thread perf than every Intel Mac ever shipped!

[dieselm]

Crazy.

Even crazier that ~2 chip designs (M1 & M1 Pro/Max/Ultra) cover a whole range from tablet, laptop, desktop, to workstation.

 

[cmaier]

Crazy.

Even crazier that ~2 chip designs (M1 & M1 Pro/Max/Ultra) cover a whole range from tablet, laptop, desktop, to workstation.

It is a little weird that they went with A13 instead of an older design, given how little the A13 is being used for at the moment, though maybe center stage really can’t run on older silicon.

 

[dieselm]

It is a little weird that they went with A13 instead of an older design, given how little the A13 is being used for at the moment, though maybe center stage really can’t run on older silicon.

Is it? If they're going to reuse a part, it's the oldest thing they still use (current gen iPad, iPhone 11, and last gen iPhone SE) in some volume.

A12 discontinued and Homepod mini uses the watch part.

 

[cmaier]

Is it? If they're going to reuse a part, it's the oldest thing they still use (current gen iPad, iPhone 11, and last gen iPhone SE) in some volume.

A12 discontinued and Homepod mini uses the watch part.

Being discontinued shouldn’t have mattered - for the volume they need, it would be very cheap to make them.

 

[dieselm]

Being discontinued shouldn’t have mattered - for the volume they need, it would be very cheap to make them.

I suppose. Assuming the basic iPad is still 50% of sales plus the 11/SE, that's at least 65m+ A13s in the last 12 months.
It's mature. How much would they save vs the trouble of keeping track of another part?

They sure love streamlining. A15, M1, M1 Pro/Max/Ultra and 3 designs cover the whole line up from the most entry-level iPhone SE to the highest end workstation.

20 total variations including every cpu/gpu/memory configuation. 2 more if you add the A13/A14. Wild.

 

[dieselm]

I assume M1 Max's with defects in the 'lower-half' are designed to be able to be turned into M1 Pros. Do you know if that's true?

 

[cmaier]

I assume M1 Max's with defects in the 'lower-half' are designed to be able to be turned into M1 Pros. Do you know if that's true?

It’s not clear to me. There appears to be a scribe lane there on the M1 Max, so what they could do is do wafer probe testing to figure out if there are functional failures (it’s a lot harder to test for speed that way, though I invented a way to do that back in 1994). If they find a failure, they could chop off the bottom of the die. I don’t think they;d want to just fuse off the bottom, because of the way the die are packaged. Chopping die-by-die, though, is not something you really want to do. You’d prefer to slice the whole wafer. I have no idea what they actually do.

 

[Abazigal]

Crazy.

Even crazier that ~2 chip designs (M1 & M1 Pro/Max/Ultra) cover a whole range from tablet, laptop, desktop, to workstation.

It’s even funnier when you realise there’s an ongoing chip shortage, and Apple responds by sticking chips in their own monitors.

 

[JPack]

I suspect it’s due to additional hardware security features of A13 and newer, like the Boot Monitor.

Secure Enclave

The Secure Enclave is a dedicated secure subsystem in the latest versions of iPhone, iPad, Mac, Apple TV, Apple Watch, Apple Vision Pro, and HomePod.

support.apple.com

 

[Jupiter9]

Yet you can't use its full capabilities when you hook it up to anything else than Apple machine. Ironic.

 

[cmaier]

Yet you can't use its full capabilities when you hook it up to anything else than Apple machine. Ironic.

i think that’s only ironic in the Alanis Morissette sense.

 

[Spindel]

i think that’s only ironic in the Alanis Morissette sense.

It’s like tenthousand spoons when all you need is a knife.

 

[Icelus]

Is it? If they're going to reuse a part, it's the oldest thing they still use (current gen iPad, iPhone 11, and last gen iPhone SE) in some volume.

A12 discontinued and Homepod mini uses the watch part.

Apple TV 4K (still) uses the A12.

 

[dieselm]

It’s even funnier when you realise there’s an ongoing chip shortage, and Apple responds by sticking chips in their own monitors.

That's one way Apple could do a 27" all-in-one. By the looks of the keynote video, it looks like they have room in there, as it seems thicker than it needs to be.

The laptops designs already manage to dissipate heat up to an M1 Max and we have at least as much surface area and volume to work with. Even if it's too hot for an M1 Ultra, M1 / M1 Pro & Max would well cover the all-in-one market.

iMac Studio or iMac Pro. That would reuse a known good design, and give people the choice of an all-in-one or separate components. Would also explain the pre-event rumors confusing the Studio Display and 27" iMac.

Heck of way to bring back "Target Display Mode".

 

[Bodhitree]

Is it? If they're going to reuse a part, it's the oldest thing they still use (current gen iPad, iPhone 11, and last gen iPhone SE) in some volume.

A12 discontinued and Homepod mini uses the watch part.

The A12 is still used in the Apple TV 4K, but it has very sporadic presence in the channel, which is honestly why I expect an updated product in that area from Apple sooner rather than later.

edit: @Icelus got there before me.

 

[dieselm]

Apple's done an amazing job of unf*cking the confusion of Ghz specs and decoupling form factor and performance tradeoffs for regular human beings.

The single-core baseline performance is the same for all form factors.
No one has to decide on whether they need a "desktop" or "laptop" or "tablet" or "all-in-one" based on basic performance. It's all the same, even up to workstations. There's no FOMO.

If they need higher multi-threaded or gpu performance or more memory/storage options, it's available in a higher tier: Pro, Max or Ultra. Desktop, laptop, or (maybe soon) all-in-one.

To @Abazigal's point. How does any other manufacturer compete with this?

 

[Quasselstripper]

It is a little weird that they went with A13 instead of an older design, given how little the A13 is being used for at the moment, though maybe center stage really can’t run on older silicon.

My assumption was always that they gonna add a combination of Universal Control / AirPlay / Sidecar in that display. Maybe the software isn't ready yet, given that Universal Control was delayed so long and isn't even pub lily available so far (but soon!).
The A13 is definitely capable to do so, but the 5k resolution could be a problem.
Is there any info if the display has WiFi or bluetooth capabilities?

 

[cmaier]

My assumption was always that they gonna add a combination of Universal Control / AirPlay / Sidecar in that display. Maybe the software isn't ready yet, given that Universal Control was delayed so long and isn't even pub lily available so far (but soon!).
The A13 is definitely capable to do so, but the 5k resolution could be a problem.
Is there any info if the display has WiFi or bluetooth capabilities?

It has no radios

 

[darngooddesign]

The laptops designs already manage to dissipate heat up to an M1 Max and we have at least as much surface area and volume to work with. Even if it's too hot for an M1 Ultra, M1 / M1 Pro & Max would well cover the all-in-one market.

Yes and no. The 16" MBP dissipates normal workload heat, but once you get into demanding tasks like rendering the M1-Pro and M1-Max throttle and the fans run at medium speed. You can stop the chips from throttling if you force the fans to max speed, but then they roar like an Intel Mac.

Apple could solve this if the kept the curved back from the Intel iMacs since there would be space for the Studio's thicker fans, but maybe not if Apple uses the same thin flat design from the 24" iMac.

 

[the8thark]

This is clearly a case of Apple cutting down on the number of different base configurations they need. If we look at M1, it's all based of the same thing, just different core counts and RAM amounts. One basic setup to make it all.

Looking at the display, it's the same deal. Just put in the lowest level SoC you are still actively making. It is far easier to make a few more of what you are actually already making compared to make something new (or something older again you stopped making). All the processes are sill there in place. You can just down clock the A13 or just have it as overkill for what you need in the display.

This is just Apple finding as many different uses for what they are already making, to cut down on the number of base conics they need to manufacture.

[note well] I am aware the TV still uses A12 but I feel the A13 is the oldest SoC Apple still make in any decent quantity.

 

[cmaier]

[note well] I am aware the TV still uses A12 but I feel the A13 is the oldest SoC Apple still make in any decent quantity.

Maybe, but they sell (and will sell) a hell of a lot more Apple TV’s than monitors.

 

[the8thark]

Maybe, but they sell (and will sell) a hell of a lot more Apple TV’s than monitors.

True.

But do Apple still sell more A13 phones (example iPhone 11) than Apple TVs?
If this is the case then just adding a small number more A13s to the A13 SoC manufacturing line for the displays is not a big deal at all.

What we do not know and are speculating on is the capacity of the A12 vs A13 fab lines in the factories.
my assumption is the A12 fab lines are small and at capacity now. I think Apple would probably not want to expand them for monitors. However the A13 lines are still being used for the iPhone 11 and other things. Is there a little left over A13 fab time or space to squeeze in a few more A13 for the monitors?
Or possibly Apple could have just decided instead of 100% of the A13 going into phones and other A13 product, we can change that to 90% (or whatever percent Apple choose) and that remaining percent being moved into the displays. Sure a few less A13 Phones etc are made, but since displays comparatively are a drop in the bucket sales wise, not a big deal at all.

 

[cmaier]

True.

But do Apple still sell more A13 phones (example iPhone 11) than Apple TVs?
If this is the case then just adding a small number more A13s to the A13 SoC manufacturing line for the displays is not a big deal at all.

What we do not know and are speculating on is the capacity of the A12 vs A13 fab lines in the factories.
my assumption is the A12 fab lines are small and at capacity now. I think Apple would probably not want to expand them for monitors. However the A13 lines are still being used for the iPhone 11 and other things. Is there a little left over A13 fab time or space to squeeze in a few more A13 for the monitors?
Or possibly Apple could have just decided instead of 100% of the A13 going into phones and other A13 product, we can change that to 90% (or whatever percent Apple choose) and that remaining percent being moved into the displays. Sure a few less A13 Phones etc are made, but since displays comparatively are a drop in the bucket sales wise, not a big deal at all.

The A12 is on 7nm, which means it should be much cheaper and there should be much more fab capacity for it.

My guess is that A13 simply made it easier to do the ML stuff for center stage, or that they plan on adding features in the future (maybe something turns up at WWDC), and so they figured A13 was the place to start.