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chfilm

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Hey guys, just wanted to throw in a speculative thought and ask what you think about it-
Since the new m1 Max’s are smoking the old intel MacBooks and even come close to Mac Pro Performance in some encode/decode tasks, I believe I read somewhere that this is due to a dedicated chip for these tasks.
Wouldn’t it be possible that apple opens up the afterburner or makes a new version of it for the current Mac Pro that enables the same functionality until they come out with a new Mac Pro in two years?

Just from a purely technical standpoint, do you think something stands in the way of this?
 

tsialex

Contributor
Jun 13, 2016
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Hey guys, just wanted to throw in a speculative thought and ask what you think about it-
Since the new m1 Max’s are smoking the old intel MacBooks and even come close to Mac Pro Performance in some encode/decode tasks, I believe I read somewhere that this is due to a dedicated chip for these tasks.
Wouldn’t it be possible that apple opens up the afterburner or makes a new version of it for the current Mac Pro that enables the same functionality until they come out with a new Mac Pro in two years?

Just from a purely technical standpoint, do you think something stands in the way of this?
AfterBurner is a FPGA solution, or like Apple calls it programmable ASIC solution, and it's field upgradeable. The M1 hardware decode engine is set in stone the moment the hardware designers saved the project, before sending it to the foundry.

When a codec is updated/bug found/etc, the FPGA HDL description can be easily updated, while the M1 hardware decode engine never will be. This is the main point for the AfterBurner solution, besides that you have specific optimisations for the type of job that you are doing that can be made using the FPGA that you won't have the possibility to do with the M1 hardware decoder/encoder.
 
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bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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The main thing standing is the way is Apple not releasing an SDK or any kind of developer tool to tweak or modify Afterburner in any fashion. This has been a long running complaint since its release. Do not see that changing with M1/ARM, even if they make it compatible or release a new model in some fashion.

The usage for ProRes codecs only already limits the market. The overall system improvements in M1 (not just raw CPU speed) may make products like this “useless” in Apple’s mind, especially given the limited user base target. RED abandoned their card for similar reasons. Was easier and cheaper to embrace GPU acceleration for similar end goal.
 
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chfilm

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Hm it’s so weird. Thanks for the clarification... so in theory they could definitely do something with it, but they just chose not to in order to cripple their computer and to protect Prores.. don’t they understand that a lot of cameras just don’t shoot Prores??
 

LeonPro

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Jul 23, 2002
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Yeah, I was hopeful about the After Burner card and held off purchasing one. They will always protect their ProRes first and foremost.

I'm even more hopeful that there will be a new MPX GPU better than the Vega II that I can upgrade to or supplement in the future. But then again knowing how Apple is...what we all see might be what we get before the 8,1 arrives.
 

bsbeamer

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Sep 19, 2012
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Hm it’s so weird. Thanks for the clarification... so in theory they could definitely do something with it, but they just chose not to in order to cripple their computer and to protect Prores.. don’t they understand that a lot of cameras just don’t shoot Prores??
Don't think you are understanding - the Afterburner was SPECIFICALLY released for optimizing ProRes workflows on MP7,1 and nothing else was promised or advertised by Apple. It is a ProRes accelerator, that is it.

If your workflow does not fit into ProRes, don't buy the add-on card. It really is that simple.
 
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LeonPro

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Jul 23, 2002
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I think the confusion was in Apple's announcement of the Afterburner card back in June 3, 2019. Apple, being Apple (and like all other companies trying to give an exciting announcement about their product) advised the following blurb that could have been interpreted a number of ways:

-----

Introducing Apple Afterburner, a Game-Changing Accelerator Card

The new Mac Pro debuts Afterburner, featuring a programmable ASIC capable of decoding up to 6.3 billion pixels per second. With Afterburner, video editors using high-quality cameras that require the conversion of native file formats into proxies for easy editing can now use native formats right from the camera and decode up to three streams of 8K ProRes RAW video and 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW video in real time, virtually eliminating proxy workflows.

-----

"Native file formats" could have meant just that - whatever camera native file format the camera had and excitedly proclaimed without the conversion into proxies.

What wasn't clear at that time and I doubt Apple was also decidedly clear on how much support they wanted to give to the card - is that native file format meant ProRes file format. And that they really weren't going to program the card into any other way than to support ProRes. Perhaps they took a gamble into hopefully exciting camera manufacturers to make ProRes their standard file format as a result.

We now know that high end cameras still use their own RAW formats (ARRIRAW, Blackmagic RAW, Redcode RAW) and newer prosumer cameras released this year are still using H.264 file formats in different sampling flavours.

Which means you will still need to transcode all these files into ProRes as final files or proxy.

I think it's Apple's own doing why the Afterburner card will fade away due to sales slump which could have given more life to it for existing 7,1 users. But I also think they are making a conscious effort in killing it along with the 7,1 because...well, Apple Silicon.
 
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blackadde

macrumors regular
Dec 11, 2019
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The 7,1 project in its entirety really seems to be an exercise in building the perfect FCP machine, and the Afterburner is just another example of that. All other considerations are/were secondary.
 

deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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Don't think you are understanding - the Afterburner was SPECIFICALLY released for optimizing ProRes workflows on MP7,1 and nothing else was promised or advertised by Apple. It is a ProRes accelerator, that is it.

Apple didn't clearly explicitly promise , but they sowed very substantive confusion when their marketing hype that declared "the end of proxies ".

"...With Afterburner, video editors using high-quality cameras that require the conversion of native file formats into proxies for easy editing can now use native formats right from the camera and decode up to three streams of 8K ProRes RAW video and 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW video in real time,1 virtually eliminating proxy workflows. ..."

The Mac Pro's current marketing page

"... No more time-consuming transcoding, storage overhead, or errors during output. Proxy workflows, RIP. .."


Clear headed, objective and skeptical inspection of the rest of what they were saying could wind that back to just ProRes, but lots of folks pragmatically use proxies all the time to put the format they have a large stack of into a more workflow manageable format. It primarily wasn't Apple , but it was lots of folks who ran with that notion and thought Apple was going to get rid of their " XYZ -> proxy in ProRes" problem.

Adobe's use of the term was quite different than Apple's

There it is "don't worry about what the camera format is, we'll just deal with it."

The primary native format of the vast majorities of cameras is not ProRes or ProResRAW. Pumping output from your camera to an external Atmos recorder is not a "native format". I don't care how much hand waving Apple marketing apologists want to do. If it leaves the camera and not in that format then it can't possibly be native to the camera. The avoidance of conversion in Apple's spin was the avoidance of everyone else's format. Store everything in Apple ProRes and then don't have to convert later. All the more when, "native formats" is actually plural in their sales pitch. ProRes and ProRes RAW makes for plural 'native formats'? So the second part of the compound sentence after the 'and' pushes constraints and shift from natural interpretation back into adjectives in the first sentence.


The spin that popped up after Afterburner shipped was that in some cameras one of the optional "save as" formats setting is ProRes. Chuckle. that's like "text only" is the native storage format of Word that the majority of Word users use in average daily use. Not.


And then Apple compounded the expectation setting by keeping the FAQ file for Afterburner buried for 4-5 months.

But yes. With the current Afterburner documentation and FAQ available and the far less hyped description on the actually accessories product "buy" page. After reading those and putting the "WWDC dog and pony" descriptions into the "P.T. Barnum" , "Reality distortion field" , context they were made in, the narrow purpose of the card should be clear.



If your workflow does not fit into ProRes, don't buy the add-on card. It really is that simple.

Apple could have said that from the "get go".

" Got lots of ProRes and ProRes RAW files? They card makes the decoding go super fast."

Not death of proxies or transcoding ( or anything else 'dying' ) mentioned at all. Way too caught up in trying to come up with some spectacular reason to justify the cost and the $999 monitor stand.
 

deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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Hm it’s so weird. Thanks for the clarification... so in theory they could definitely do something with it, but they just chose not to in order to cripple their computer and to protect Prores.. don’t they understand that a lot of cameras just don’t shoot Prores??

It really isn't "Protect ProRes" as it is "enable ProRes".

Modern GPUs that come out from this point on will have the high profile H.265 (and H.264 ) and most of the standards based video compression docoders in them.

In the Unified Memory context the Afterburner card is not in Unified Memory. It doesn't share native memory with the GPU ( which is the natural destination for video data which is probably going to be presented on the screen somehow. ). Afterburner is an intermediary step on the way from the drive to the video encode/decode memory.
That makes it a bit of a dual edge sword. For H.265 stuff that really does not make much sense long term.

a. A future Mac Pro will extremely likely have a M-series iGPU and/or camerag processing engine built into it. ( even if somehow strip out the iGPU, which i doubt, the camera/video decode/encode engine will probably still be there. It is there in smaller form in the T2 Mac Pro 2019. Going forward it is basically a built-in. Not an area objective for Afterburner. )

b. A future AMD GPU of RDNA2 ( or better) design will have a decode/encode engine for non ProRes files that are widely implemented standards based. The M1 doesn't have a complete exclusive on H.265 high profile encode/decode. ( the cameras folks use do it. It is just a matter of transistor budget allocation).



So really left with folks with the initial GPUs on Mac Pro 2019 and a Afterburner. I doubt that is a large fraction of the current Mac Pro base. Or will be in the 1-2 years going forward.

The other major problem is that is only some much "logic gate" capacity in the FPGA. Likely can either only be super good at ProRes or super good at some other format for multiple streams. So is Apple system suppose to flip flop the FPGA on a daily ,hourly , weekly basis? That is a big disconnect here.

With just one function then the Apple library code can be kept very clean

" if Afterburner is present then
use it
else
use the software encoder.
end if "

The FPGA in 2-4 different modes makes that a long cascading bunch of tests. That is not really what Apple probably wants in that location.
 

OkiRun

macrumors 65816
Oct 25, 2019
1,005
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Japan
One thing that has me confused about apple products these past couple of years. It is the advertising of which I am paying attention to ~ but like the frog in the well maybe.

When I see mac products promoted - its about video editing or song creation or photo editing ~ i.e. workloads and work flows.

I thought that most people by macs for word processing, internet, school, photos, music, and movies. The advertising from Apple doesn't focus on the non-work user. However, this may be the filter I have running. Does it seem to others that the world is all about video editing and song editing and photo editing?

I am living in the bubble.
 

blackadde

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Dec 11, 2019
165
242
It's just aspirational marketing. No different than seeing a SUV you're never going to take off-road whip 'round a National Park in a TV spot, or Rolex boast about their watches surviving deep in the ocean even though most people just wear them as a fashion piece. People like to think: if it's good enough for that, it's good enough for me.
 
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LeonPro

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Jul 23, 2002
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Although I don't take the Grand Cherokee off-roading. I do wear my Rolex deep diving. And I'd like to think the Mac can keep up with my video editing. So far 2/3. :)
 
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chfilm

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All very interesting. Well just need to hope for a future and gpu mpx module then with better acceleration for other formats. I’m still on the fence for an afterburner since I AM using a lot of Prores material but at least 50% of my work also consists of other formats.
 

deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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All very interesting. Well just need to hope for a future and gpu mpx module then with better acceleration for other formats.

It doesn't have to be an MPX module specifically. It would need robustly complete drivers . Apple and the GPU package vendor putting in a complete effort would be helpful to getting complete drivers. The GPU package showing up embedded in another Mac ( iMac variant ) would also be helpful in getting the sufficient amount of work being put into the effort.

Apple has put "shade" on that with M1 and their "we love our own GPU first" unveiling of macOS 11 graphics driver support. I don't expect Apple to clean up expectation guidance and communication (vagueness) until WWDC 2021 when they point to incremental improvements macOS 12 (? I guess not suck on X/'10' for a decade this time. since there is an 11.1 coming. )

It is mainly software need from Apple (and their partner(s)), not changes to the Afterburner.


I’m still on the fence for an afterburner since I AM using a lot of Prores material but at least 50% of my work also consists of other formats.

Part of the Afterburner's problem is cost. For someone who does 90% ProRes RAW 4K work , the $2k cost is amortized out over almost every day. For someone whose is not pushing data through the card on a regular basis that is $2K that is burning a hole in the budget. How do you find "more work" for the Afterburner card?

Apple's spin is to try to convince more folks to create more ProRes RAW to digest. Afterburner , ProRes RAW on Windows , Apple greasing wheels to get more recorders and alt format settings couple to cameras , etc. If they can grow a big enough mound of data then the card 'works'.

When it is idle most of the time folks start gazing off into " if my aunt were a man she'd be my uncle" territory. For example 20% ProRes last year. Up to 35-45% this year and that trend still have growth in it then the upfront cost for the Afterburner will pay out later.

If have quantitative data to go with the format demographics then that could give some useful projections. It may be that the AFterburner ROI is just quite longer than that of past GPU cards. It would pay off in perhaps 3-5 years as opposed to just 1-2 . If looking to keep this Mac Pro 2019 chassis in play for 5-8 years than that can be worth it ( presuming have a leash that long for the capital to pay off. )


The problem for Apple and ProRes RAW is that the mainstream options with high gamut coverage and inclusion into every phone , tv , streamer , etc is going to be tough to be on volume. It is like DSLR cameras versus phone cameras 15 years ago versus now. Very similar train ( better tech and computational videography/photography ) coming down the tunnel for ProRes RAW just on relatively high end cameras.
 
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chfilm

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It doesn't have to be an MPX module specifically. It would need robustly complete drivers . Apple and the GPU package vendor putting in a complete effort would be helpful to getting complete drivers. The GPU package showing up embedded in another Mac ( iMac variant ) would also be helpful in getting the sufficient amount of work being put into the effort.
Well for people like me with XDR displays itd better be an MPx module, because otherwise I wouldn’t know how to hook them up to the Mac Pro. Or maybe one day the USB C ports on those cards will work for that display.
i have now two Vega IIs inside. If there should be an 6900 MPX module I wouldn’t be sure what to do, it’s always better to have one super powerful card, but resolve for example falls back to the slowest card in the system, so if i would Replace one Vega with something new it wouldn’t be of much help as long as I keep one Vega. Questioning my decision to buy a second one..
 

deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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Well for people like me with XDR displays itd better be an MPx module, because otherwise I wouldn’t know how to hook them up to the Mac Pro. Or maybe one day the USB C ports on those cards will work for that display. -

If Intel manages to get a foothold in the discrete GPU add-in-card market and keeps a good enough relationship with macOS get signed drivers through then very good chance one of their 2022-24 will. DisplayPort 2.0 using the Thunderbolt protocol. That isn't necessarily TBv3 support but does mean there will be some infrastructure that supports the basic TB protocol in the GPU subsystem for displays. If Intel has to put part of it there , then they are pretty likley going to put the whole thing there. And video decode/encode is where they may have traction if grow out starting from this starting point.

Intel Server GPU Shown for Video Transcoding Applications (servethehome.com)

That is lots of execution for Intel to get right. But also indicative that Apple doesn't have to go "reinvent the wheel" if they want to enable a multiple standard video decode streamer card if just keep the good working relationship with Intel graphics drivers folks. And Apple not going draconian on GPU drivers where they are the sole solution possible.

AMD is probably walking a 1-2 year slower pace. They took small "baby steps" by putting USB Type-C ports on new RDNA2 cards. For example, see specs here:

AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT Graphics | AMD

A Type-C port isn't Thunderbolt v3 support, but it is starting process of normalizing its presence. AMD is likely going to implement DPv2 on next iteration (RDND3 or 4 ) . That still won't be thunderbolt v3. Once they get to PCI-e v5 on the cards ( 'extra' bandwidth that may not be missed ) and some standard TBv3 design libraries that AMD can license affordably , then I suspect it will make its way onto the add-in-cards. [ Even with just DPv2 would highly likely get a picture on XDR , just not working XDR USB ports. ]

Even without MPX there is a decent chance it will show up eventually. Sooner with MPX would be better for the Apple motivated display docking station ecosystem that Apple has fostered over the last 5-7 years ( XDR , LG Ultrafine iterations , legacy 27" docking station) . MPX connector is a bit ahead of the curve relative to the rest of the industry.


i have now two Vega IIs inside. If there should be an 6900 MPX module I wouldn’t be sure what to do, it’s always better to have one super powerful card, but resolve for example falls back to the slowest card in the system, so if i would Replace one Vega with something new it wouldn’t be of much help as long as I keep one Vega. Questioning my decision to buy a second one..

I'd be more concerned whether would "loose" the Infinity Fabric link between the too than with Resolve slowing to lowest common denominator. Haven't seen how much AMD is supporting multi generational Infinity Fabric (IF) generations ( may not ).

if Resolve isn't using the IF connection then it is leaving performance on the floor even with two twin cards in addition to the un-optimized, non segmented workload distribution management system. I doubt "lowest common denominator" will be a constrain for all of most high end apps for over the long haul. ( some operations my be throttled that way. But that "everything has to be 100% uniform to scale" has major disconnects with the application cores no at this point also. Both Apple's M-series and Intel's 2022 implementations. )

A hefty chunk of the price increase for the Vega II variants is for the Infinity Fabric. And if not using the link , then it is going to be much more difficult to get deep value out of the cards.

If stuck with lots of input footage that the fixed function of a W6900 MPX could chew through easily then the trade off should play out for a number of workloads ( presuming the drivers effectively leverage new fixed function logic. )
 
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chfilm

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Nov 15, 2012
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If Intel manages to get a foothold in the discrete GPU add-in-card market and keeps a good enough relationship with macOS get signed drivers through then very good chance one of their 2022-24 will. DisplayPort 2.0 using the Thunderbolt protocol. That isn't necessarily TBv3 support but does mean there will be some infrastructure that supports the basic TB protocol in the GPU subsystem for displays. If Intel has to put part of it there , then they are pretty likley going to put the whole thing there. And video decode/encode is where they may have traction if grow out starting from this starting point.

Intel Server GPU Shown for Video Transcoding Applications (servethehome.com)

That is lots of execution for Intel to get right. But also indicative that Apple doesn't have to go "reinvent the wheel" if they want to enable a multiple standard video decode streamer card if just keep the good working relationship with Intel graphics drivers folks. And Apple not going draconian on GPU drivers where they are the sole solution possible.

AMD is probably walking a 1-2 year slower pace. They took small "baby steps" by putting USB Type-C ports on new RDNA2 cards. For example, see specs here:

AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT Graphics | AMD

A Type-C port isn't Thunderbolt v3 support, but it is starting process of normalizing its presence. AMD is likely going to implement DPv2 on next iteration (RDND3 or 4 ) . That still won't be thunderbolt v3. Once they get to PCI-e v5 on the cards ( 'extra' bandwidth that may not be missed ) and some standard TBv3 design libraries that AMD can license affordably , then I suspect it will make its way onto the add-in-cards. [ Even with just DPv2 would highly likely get a picture on XDR , just not working XDR USB ports. ]

Even without MPX there is a decent chance it will show up eventually. Sooner with MPX would be better for the Apple motivated display docking station ecosystem that Apple has fostered over the last 5-7 years ( XDR , LG Ultrafine iterations , legacy 27" docking station) . MPX connector is a bit ahead of the curve relative to the rest of the industry.




I'd be more concerned whether would "loose" the Infinity Fabric link between the too than with Resolve slowing to lowest common denominator. Haven't seen how much AMD is supporting multi generational Infinity Fabric (IF) generations ( may not ).

if Resolve isn't using the IF connection then it is leaving performance on the floor even with two twin cards in addition to the un-optimized, non segmented workload distribution management system. I doubt "lowest common denominator" will be a constrain for all of most high end apps for over the long haul. ( some operations my be throttled that way. But that "everything has to be 100% uniform to scale" has major disconnects with the application cores no at this point also. Both Apple's M-series and Intel's 2022 implementations. )

A hefty chunk of the price increase for the Vega II variants is for the Infinity Fabric. And if not using the link , then it is going to be much more difficult to get deep value out of the cards.

If stuck with lots of input footage that the fixed function of a W6900 MPX could chew through easily then the trade off should play out for a number of workloads ( presuming the drivers effectively leverage new fixed function logic. )
Good thinking! Yea I got the second Vega over a Radeon VII mostly because of the link because it felt logical that this allows for a better distribution of the workload between the two cards. (Though I haven’t seen any real world proof that it really matters.)

I saw today that Adobe Media Encoder uses both cards to create Proxies from h264-> Prores footage. Only up to 40% but hey, better than nothing!
Resolve scales beautifully across both cards. Nearly symmetrical workload!
Will see.. if there’s a 6900 mpx it will have to be reevaluated what makes more sense. I can rerun the mpx till end of January thanks to Amazon ;) so let’s see.
 

chfilm

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Do you have the Amazon link? I can't seem to find a Vega II card with 25% off. :(
The offer is gone... was on the German Amazon, they went down from 3400€ to 2400€! It went over several days further and further down and wasn’t for the first time. At one point they even had the duo for 50% off!!
 

randy85

macrumors regular
Oct 3, 2020
150
136
For me the Afterburner was a no brainer. The cost isn't too bad as I already have £50k invested in a prores-shooting Arri camera (Arriraw is actually quite rarely used in comparison, mostly on feature films or Netflix shows. Most production goes with prores).

However, it's an incredibly specific product. It works for me, but for many other people it maybe doesn't make as much sense.

One issue is the adoption of prores in mid-range cameras. I'd love a smaller camera that natively shoots prores. I can transcode, but that often means doubling storage for this footage or discarding the camera originals.

Prores RAW is interesting, however is currently isn't compatible with Davinci Resolve - a major hurdle that needs to be... resolved before it can really be useful for a lot of people.

Also, internal Prores RAW recording has not appeared in cameras due to RED's patents.

If you then consider that the entry-level M1 Macs can smoothly playback 8K prores footage, it does look like the Afterburner's days could be numbered.

For what it's worth though - I threw the Afterburner card into my Mac Pro and now can cut and grade 4.5K prores 4444 in Resolve like butter. Eliminating proxies is a huge deal for me. Even if this power gets matched natively by Apple Silicon.
 
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