The M1 as seen from the other side of the fence (PCWORLD)

[s66]

"Tested: How badly Windows on Arm compares to the new Mac M1s"
Might sound like it's written by an apple fanboy, right ?
Well not unless he works for pcworld (nope not MACworld, PCworld).

Tested: How badly Windows on Arm compares to the new Mac M1s

We tested how Windows on Arm (Surface Pro X with SQ1 Arm chip) compares to Apple's M1 chip (MacBook Air). The results look bad for Windows on Arm.

www.pcworld.com

From their conclusion:

it’s hard to believe that further development will bridge the vast gulf of performance between Windows on Arm and Apple’s M1-based Macs.

Might be a good time to remind Microsoft that they have an offer from Apple to help them to get Windows running on the M1.

 

[velocityg4]

Interesting. What is far more illuminating is comparing the ARM vs x86 performance hit.

While they showed how bad the Surfacebook is at x86. You couldn't compare it to the same programs in Windows running native ARM code. So you don't see if the Apple CPU is simply way better or if Windows x86 emulsion takes a huge hit.

While I know the hit in Windows is huge. From other reviews. It isn't well illustrated in the article.

 

[spiderman0616]

Has anyone checked on Paul Thurrott or Mary Jo Foley lately?

 

[s66]

You couldn't compare it to the same programs in Windows running native ARM code.

Not rhetoric questions, I don't do windows at all...

Is the windows ARM doing actual emulation ?

If so: no doubt it's going to be a huge performance hit right there. That's also why rosetta 2 on macOS is so nice: AFAIK it's mostly a translation at first launch and only more tricky bits might get emulated at runtime - resulting in a much faster exexcution. No the translation is not as good as compiling from source - hence it's still important to get the developers to recompile as a universal application.​

​

Is there any (significant) Windows ARM applications readily available or will it all have to be emulated anyway ?

 

[jdb8167]

Interesting. What is far more illuminating is comparing the ARM vs x86 performance hit.

While they showed how bad the Surfacebook is at x86. You couldn't compare it to the same programs in Windows running native ARM code. So you don't see if the Apple CPU is simply way better or if Windows x86 emulsion takes a huge hit.

While I know the hit in Windows is huge. From other reviews. It isn't well illustrated in the article.

I agree. The M1 MacBook Air was mostly running native (everything but Tomb Raider I think) and it looked like everything on the Surface X was running emulated/translated. Not exactly a fair test though I have no doubt that even if the Surface had native apps to compare it would still get smoked by the MBA. They also didn't mention that people are successfully running Windows on Arm with QEmu and are seeing reasonable speeds. It seems like that is what they should have tested, an M1 MBA running WoA in a VM vs. the Surface X. It would have been much more illuminating.

 

[adderthorn]

Has anyone checked on Paul Thurrott or Mary Jo Foley lately?

Paul Thurrott has talked about the M1 on Windows Weekly a few times and has given it mostly high praise. It's hard not to.

 

[tdar]

"Tested: How badly Windows on Arm compares to the new Mac M1s"
Might sound like it's written by an apple fanboy, right ?
Well not unless he works for pcworld (nope not MACworld, PCworld).

Tested: How badly Windows on Arm compares to the new Mac M1s

We tested how Windows on Arm (Surface Pro X with SQ1 Arm chip) compares to Apple's M1 chip (MacBook Air). The results look bad for Windows on Arm.

www.pcworld.com

From their conclusion:

Might be a good time to remind Microsoft that they have an offer from Apple to help them to get Windows running on the M1.

I don't believe that they need reminding. The headline of this article is typical clickbate. The problem is not Windows on ARM. It's great. The problem is the Surface Pro X or should I say the Qualcomm processor that's in it. I wonder what Microsoft could do to fix that? Maybe M1?

 

[poorcody]

Not rhetoric questions, I don't do windows at all...

Is the windows ARM doing actual emulation ?

Microsoft appears to compile "chunks of code at runtime", versus Rosetta's basic approach of compiling the application entirely at the first-run and saving it. (That's probably an overly-simple explanation, as I think Rosetta must do some real-time translation to make certain things work.)

Microsoft (and I assume Big Sur) also have all the OS API calls handled by native code, so no application is entirely emulated (most desktop apps spend a lot of time in OS API code). Microsoft also has added translation issues dealing with 32-bit data since ARM is 64-bit native. Apple avoided that by pushing everything to 64-bit.

Hard to know how much better Rosetta vs Microsoft emulation is, and how much is Qualcomm vs M1 -- although I suspect Qualcomm is the bigger problem.

More details on Microsoft emulation at:

Windows 10 on ARM

For the first time ever, our customers will be able to experience the Windows they know with all the apps, and peripherals they require, on a mobile, power efficient, always-connected cellular PC. Wat

channel9.msdn.com

 

[tdar]

Not rhetoric questions, I don't do windows at all...

Is the windows ARM doing actual emulation ?

If so: no doubt it's going to be a huge performance hit right there. That's also why rosetta 2 on macOS is so nice: AFAIK it's mostly a translation at first launch and only more tricky bits might get emulated at runtime - resulting in a much faster exexcution. No the translation is not as good as compiling from source - hence it's still important to get the developers to recompile as a universal application.​

​

Is there any (significant) Windows ARM applications readily available or will it all have to be emulated anyway ?

Pop on over to the Windows on the M1 thread and go to page 11. There you will find a short video that I shot of my M1 Mini running Windows on Arm in a VM. In the clip I launch 32-bit intel Excel. Emulated. I doubt that you'll find it to be slow. Word is that the 64 bit emulation is even better. I'll have a test on that in the next days.

 

[tdar]

Paul Thurrott has talked about the M1 on Windows Weekly a few times and has given it mostly high praise. It's hard not to.

He and Leo get it. My friend Mary Jo not so much.

 

[ght56]

I still think that the M1 is exactly what could save Windows 10 on ARM and turn it into a mainstream, legitimate OS.

 

[dmccloud]

I don't believe that they need reminding. The headline of this article is typical clickbate. The problem is not Windows on ARM. It's great. The problem is the Surface Pro X or should I say the Qualcomm processor that's in it. I wonder what Microsoft could do to fix that? Maybe M1?

The Qualcomm processor is the reason why WoA at this time only runs 32-bit apps, and can not emulate 64-bit apps. Microsoft is working on a version that will add support for 64-bit apps, but I'm not sure of the timeline for releasing that version will be. Microsoft is not the type of company that would launch headfirst into ARM if they didn't think there was a future to that ISA. Even during the transition to 64-bit, Microsoft maintained two separate beta builds of Windows XP x64 (AMD64 and IA64 (Itanium)) for a couple of years before deciding to stick with AMDs implementation of a 64-bit instruction set and eventually implementing it into Vista. Today, you have ARM-based systems from Samsung, Lenovo, and Microsoft on the market, with WoA not being in any sort of beta testing phase.

 

[adderthorn]

He and Leo get it. My friend Mary Jo not so much.

Mary Jo doesn't like macOS. Although I did hear her praise the battery life and if there was an equivelent Windows laptop, she'd be happy. I'm kind of in a similar boat since I prefer Windows and am much more productive with Windows, but really wanted the battery life and fanless experience of the M1.

 

[Wizec]

Mary Jo doesn't like macOS. Although I did hear her praise the battery life and if there was an equivelent Windows laptop, she'd be happy. I'm kind of in a similar boat since I prefer Windows and am much more productive with Windows, but really wanted the battery life and fanless experience of the M1.

macOS is a dumpster fire when it comes to usability and productivity. Finder and Xcode are prime examples of this. In Xcode we have tiny little ambiguous icons sprinkled all over the interface that get moved around from release to release. Try to move a file in Finder. There isn't a cut/move option anywhere in the menus. You have to just somehow learn that you have to hold down the option key when copying to change it to a move. Dozens of things, including the brain-dead global menu, etc. Sorry, I could go on forever.

 

[spiderman0616]

macOS is a dumpster fire when it comes to usability and productivity. Finder and Xcode are prime examples of this. In Xcode we have tiny little ambiguous icons sprinkled all over the interface that get moved around from release to release. Try to move a file in Finder. There isn't a cut/move option anywhere in the menus. You have to just somehow learn that you have to hold down the option key when copying to change it to a move. Dozens of things, including the brain-dead global menu, etc. Sorry, I could go on forever.

Why........and I mean this 100% sincerely........the hell are you on this forum reading about Macs and commenting if you hate them so much?

 

[alien3dx]

macOS is a dumpster fire when it comes to usability and productivity. Finder and Xcode are prime examples of this. In Xcode we have tiny little ambiguous icons sprinkled all over the interface that get moved around from release to release. Try to move a file in Finder. There isn't a cut/move option anywhere in the menus. You have to just somehow learn that you have to hold down the option key when copying to change it to a move. Dozens of things, including the brain-dead global menu, etc. Sorry, I could go on forever.

no point, me also can . Use appcode if dont like xcode, use terminal instead finder.

Conclusion live it or moved on. .

 

[matrix07]

macOS is a dumpster fire when it comes to usability and productivity. Finder and Xcode are prime examples of this. In Xcode we have tiny little ambiguous icons sprinkled all over the interface that get moved around from release to release. Try to move a file in Finder. There isn't a cut/move option anywhere in the menus. You have to just somehow learn that you have to hold down the option key when copying to change it to a move. Dozens of things, including the brain-dead global menu, etc. Sorry, I could go on forever.

Hmm.. maybe before comment on something, learn how to use it first?

Moving files on the same drive is easy. You just drag it. Want to copy it? Holding down the Option key while dragging.
Copying files between different drives, you just drag them. You don't have to hold down anything.
Want to move between different drives (which I wouldn't do anyway. I'd come from Windows 95 and that taught me to never move files, only copying because you won't lose something you copied) holding down Command key.

macOS is a dumpster fire to you simply because you're not well versed operating it.

 

[Bug-Creator]

Any comparison has to look at the whole picture to be fair.

- Apple does have a CPU/SoC with more UMMMPH than anything found in Window-on-ARM
- Apple does have a better way to deal with non native code as they have prepared for the transition years ahead by killing anything 32bit and putting in special features into the M1 (which will be gone in an M3 or so)
- Apple did push for as much code being ported ahead of launch as possible (both 1st and 3rd party)


So sure you could test certain parts by running Windows on the M1 or forcing the Mac to only use x86 apps for testing, but the overall result stays the same:

WoA is and always has been a dumpster fire, all M1 did is is making it a bit more obvious.

 

[rui no onna]

Mary Jo doesn't like macOS. Although I did hear her praise the battery life and if there was an equivelent Windows laptop, she'd be happy. I'm kind of in a similar boat since I prefer Windows and am much more productive with Windows, but really wanted the battery life and fanless experience of the M1.

Same here. I'm just too used to Windows and it's a hassle getting used to a new keyboard layout and shortcuts (particularly since I still need to use Windows at work).

That said, the fanless design and long battery life of the M1 MBA was just too good to pass up.

 

[anshuvorty]

Has anyone checked on Paul Thurrott or Mary Jo Foley lately?

Paul was impressed if I recall correctly, in one of the recent episodes of Windows Weekly with Leo Laporte.

 

[dmccloud]

macOS is a dumpster fire when it comes to usability and productivity. Finder and Xcode are prime examples of this. In Xcode we have tiny little ambiguous icons sprinkled all over the interface that get moved around from release to release. Try to move a file in Finder. There isn't a cut/move option anywhere in the menus. You have to just somehow learn that you have to hold down the option key when copying to change it to a move. Dozens of things, including the brain-dead global menu, etc. Sorry, I could go on forever.

So you won't take the time to learn the keyboard modifiers, you hate it when Apple moves stuff around (yet apparently have no issue with Microsoft doing the same thing in both their OS and applications), and you think the global menu is "brain-dead". Then I'd suggest going back to your Windows world and continue to use an OS that's an even bigger hodgepodge of UI mismatches, archaic conventions, and BSODs...

 

[adderthorn]

...I'd suggest going back to your Windows world and continue to use an OS that's an even bigger hodgepodge of UI mismatches, archaic conventions, and BSODs...

I think the UI mismatches is really the only fair point here. The archaic conventions, in my opinion, is a benefit to Windows. I'm still salty about Apple removing support for Rosetta in Lion and Carbon in Catalina. Generally any software written since 1995 should still work in Windows, which is great for abandoned products.

As far as BSODs go, that has improved quite a bit in the last ten years in my experience. I get BSODs about as frequently as kernel panics on Macs, which is to say very rarely.

 

[Luposian]

Windows 10 user here... and new M1 Mac Mini (yes, true Macs again! Not Intel PC's called Macs!) owner as well. I have learned that when Windows wants something, it will throw a tantrum until you give it up! That tantrum is usually in the form of things that worked perfectly yesterday, suddenly don't work like they should. First check? Windows Update.

Oddly enough, I use a program (Ocenaudio) that has worked great for the longest time. Now, it won't play anything! The play button is greyed out. It was working several days earlier, but the next day, suddenly I couldn't use it. I check Windows update. I ran System Care. I ran Driver Booster. I've done everything I can think of to make it go... and it just won't go! My only other option is to back up to an earlier Restore Point and hope that brings things back to normal...

Meanwhile, on my M1 Mac Mini, I also have the Mac version of Ocenaudio and it... quite literally... is EASIER to use than the Windows version! I have done things faster than I do them in Windows. No, we're not talking about processor speed things... I'm just talking about things I do are easier to do, overall, so I can do them faster. I'm amazed. ?

 

[tdar]

Mary Jo doesn't like macOS. Although I did hear her praise the battery life and if there was an equivelent Windows laptop, she'd be happy. I'm kind of in a similar boat since I prefer Windows and am much more productive with Windows, but really wanted the battery life and fanless experience of the M1.

You and Mary Jo should wait just a bit. With the availability of Parallels for AS, And Windows for ARM with 64 bit support, A MacBook Air, (or Pro) is going to be a fantastic Windows laptop.

 

[jdb8167]

You and Mary Jo should wait just a bit. With the availability of Parallels for AS, And Windows for ARM with 64 bit support, A MacBook Air, (or Pro) is going to be a fantastic Windows laptop.

It will be if Microsoft can get their act together (and if they want to). Right now most of the smaller apps on Windows on Arm are 32-bit (including Microsofts App Store) and don't run under an M1 VM. For some reason known only to them, Microsoft decided to use 32-bit binaries for some apps and 64-bit binaries for others. Luckily they did use 64-bit for emulating/translating win32 to Arm64. But Microsoft has some work to do to make WoA truly compatible with the M1 not to mention the unresolved issue of a valid Windows 10 license.